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IEP bandwagon of hate?

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Up_Tilt_390

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Given how some people have said that some die-hard enthusiasts would prefer loco-hauled stock or 1st gen EMU/DMUs, it seems that this kind of enthusiast just longs for the day of that particular generation of trains and refuse to move on, and in doing so will judge with a huge bias. However, does anyone think that maybe back as little as 50 years ago, some train enthusiasts would look at the those same diesel units and loco-hauled stock and think of them as 'modern rubbish' just like some do with the IEPs? After all, to some people the only proper train is a steam locomotive hauling Mark 1 coaches!
 
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Mag_seven

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Given how some people have said that some die-hard enthusiasts would prefer loco-hauled stock or 1st gen EMU/DMUs, it seems that this kind of enthusiast just longs for the day of that particular generation of trains and refuse to move on, and in doing so will judge with a huge bias. However, does anyone think that maybe back as little as 50 years ago, some train enthusiasts would look at the those same diesel units and loco-hauled stock and think of them as 'modern rubbish' just like some do with the IEPs? After all, to some people the only proper train is a steam locomotive hauling Mark 1 coaches!

Its just like music - the father always says to the son "call that music". When the son grows up and has children he will say to them "call that music" and so it goes on.
 

xotGD

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For me, anything other than a loco-hauled train is purely a means to get from A to B. Therefore I'd rather travel in quiet and comfort, whether that means new or old, if all that is on offer is a choice of multiple units.
 

Dave1987

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I don't think that the UK railway has space for that kind of distinction nowadays.

I know that things are different in Germany, I know that things were different in the UK in the 1980s, but I don't think there's capacity to treat our railway like that now (however much some enthusiasts like to pigeon-hole things).

For example, I have a friend who was commuting daily from Reading to London in the '90s, when that was relatively unusual amongst the people he knew. Nowadays, the commuter belt has spread so that Didcot/ Swindon see significant numbers of Paddington commuters.

I think we've got to accept that modern trains have to be built to cater to different markets - BR could have a rake designed for tourists heading from London to Cornwall - BR could accept having that rake out of use for periods - but we don't have those luxuries now.

Whilst I understand your arguments I believe that it may well prove problematic in the future. If people start to associate long distance train travel with feeling uncomfortable from firm seats then you will struggle to persuade the leisure traveller that taking the train is a good option. I will give these trains a go when visiting my family (I will not go out of my way to try and get on one) but if I find myself getting uncomfortable because the seats are rock hard then I will probably revert to going by car. There are significant advantages to travelling by car for me and if going by train on an IEP train means an uncomfortable journey it gives me even more reason to travel by car.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Indeed. And the naysayers conveniently forget, when they refer to these trains as 'foreign' or 'Jap crap', is that 70% of the components that go in to making a Class 80x are British or European. And, after the pre-production sets were built, these trains are 100% British (800) or Italian (802) assembled. These trains are as Japanese as a Nissan from Sunderland or Honda from Swindon. That is, not very Japanese, beyond initial design, at all.

The figure of 70% is very arguable, and is probably individual components, mostly small and low-value.
By value, I should think the numbers will reverse with 70% being Japanese.
I don't know what value of the total you put on UK (or Italian) assembly, but it's not going to be a high figure.
All bodyshells, traction equipment and (I think) bogies are Japanese.
The diesel engines may have a Rolls Royce moniker on them, but they are 100% German (MTU).
Virtually all the IPR, the most valuable bit, is Japanese.
Probably the biggest UK content in the order is financing, with the City taking its usual margin on the entire contract.
 

bnm

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The figure of 70% is very arguable, and is probably individual components, mostly small and low-value.

I wouldn't call wheelsets, pantographs, braking systems, exhaust systems, diesel engines, reduction gears, gangways, windows, seats, the entire driver control system, small and low value.

Just a small example of the British/European components.
 

Starmill

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In addition to the issue of local employment opportunities and the supply chain, there is also the issue of where the profits are: who are the shareholders are who benefit from them, and which government taxes them?

But that does not say to me that there is an inherent problem with the trains being built by a company that has Japanese shareholders and pays taxes to the Japanese government. That's just globalisation. And we have still got some fantastic trains.
 

Hartington

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I fear that there is an element of racial dislike hidden in some people. "Jap Crap" appears too often in comments about Hitachi built trains.

I incline to the view that anything wrong with the 80n should be laid at the door of our dearly beloved Dft
 

AlterEgo

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I fear that there is an element of racial dislike hidden in some people. "Jap Crap" appears too often in comments about Hitachi built trains.

I incline to the view that anything wrong with the 80n should be laid at the door of our dearly beloved Dft

To put another spin on this, it’s not just limited to Britain.

I made a video of the launch which has about 400 comments, quite a number of which were from Korean and Chinese accounts floating about how “crap” Japanese products are.
 

daikilo

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I have listened to various Youtube videos of 800s around the GWR network and they all appear remarkably quiet whether on what should be electric or can only be diesel. As I have a lot of knowledge about seat/cushion design, I am hopeful that their's is as optimum as it appears to be.
 

Pete_uk

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I remember when the 'useless' class 66's came over. They said they wouldn't be able to pull a empty hopper around.

Lots of people don't like new things. Change can be unsettling. The HST's saved BR and Intercity and were great trains that deserve their understated place in history. But, time moves on.
 

XCTurbostar

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I still think that the vast majority of people on this forum are still waiting to travel on an 800 before disclosing their opinion. I’m more interested in how the 800s and 802s will be different and whether the engines, for example, will be louder and more noticeable etc.
 
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delt1c

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History repeats itself. Deltics replaced A4's, Flying Bananas replaced beloved deltics. IEP replaces HST. Given time the enthusiast will come to appreciate the new kid on the block.
Just a thought does anyone miss the 105's
 

Bletchleyite

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I still think that the vast majority of people on this forum are still waiting to travel on an 800 before disclosing their opinion. I’m more interested in how the 800s and 802s will be different and whether the engines, for example, will be louder and more noticeable etc.

I doubt it, they're the same engines aren't they? They are just uprated, as indeed are the 800s now.
 

Chester1

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I think the biggest difference compared with an 800 will be that the 802s will have larger fuel tanks which shouldn't be noticable to passengers.

My two cents on 800 hate is its only a small number of old fashioned people. There are a small number of equally vocal fans but most of us are waiting to try them before forming a strong opinion. It sounds like the civil service spec has made them fairly good for most intercity services but not excellent for any, which is a reasonable outcome. I am looking forward to being able to compare Mark Vs, 397s, 802s and refurbished 185s on TPE!
 

jimm

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I doubt it, they're the same engines aren't they? They are just uprated, as indeed are the 800s now.

The engines on 800s and 802s are exactly the same, with the same maximum power output.

The only difference between the two types of train - which doesn't currently apply due to the need for them to run long distances on diesel at speeds above 100mph until the end of next year - is that the engine management software on the 800s is meant to be set to deliver a lower power output in normal operation - if, however, an engine fails, then the engines that are still working will switch up to the maximum power output setting to compensate. The 802s' engine management system will be set to allow the engines to run up to maximum output all the time.

I'm starting to lose count of the number of times this point has had to be repeated in the Class 800 thread.
 

swt_passenger

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The question that I believe has never been truly answered is are these commuter trains or are they long distance intercity trains?

Back when the specifications first appeared on the DfT website they included separate interior specs for commuter, inter-regional and intercity variants. Ratios of first/standard class were different, as were the seat pitch and numbers of tables. That was when they thought that there might be follow up orders for services such as WCML(S) and Cross Country.

However from what has been reported I believe that what has been built for GW and EC is more towards the 'intercity' end of the variable features.
 

I13

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The engines on 800s and 802s are exactly the same, with the same maximum power output.

The only difference between the two types of train - which doesn't currently apply due to the need for them to run long distances on diesel at speeds above 100mph until the end of next year - is that the engine management software on the 800s is meant to be set to deliver a lower power output in normal operation - if, however, an engine fails, then the engines that are still working will switch up to the maximum power output setting to compensate. The 802s' engine management system will be set to allow the engines to run up to maximum output all the time.

I'm starting to lose count of the number of times this point has had to be repeated in the Class 800 thread.

Can 802s be converted to electric-only (as I believe the 800s can)?
 

bastien

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A lot of it is just 'online culture' - people goad one another on, it happens everywhere. New product is released -> product has minor fault -> Youtuber makes video of fault -> 10,000 morons join in going 'hur hur' for years, even after the fault has been fixed with a firmware update.

That's why the good forums are the ones with moderators ;)
 

Thunderer

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I've bedn used to the HST since its arrival in South Wales back in 1976 and yes it has been a fabulous train for over 4 decades, and I for one will be sorry to see them come off GWR front line expresses.
I too was very sceptical of the Class 800 until 2 days ago when I took my first journey on one up to Cardiff. I travelled first class and I have to say the train seats were comfortable, the train ride was very smooth and the acceleration was impressive. I am yet to try a journey in standard class (I am hoping to do that this afternoon) but overall, I think this train has been widely vilified, when in reality it seems to be very nice to travel on. When GWR and Hitachi iron out the few teething problems these have, I'm sure they will be a success with passengers, just like the HST was back in the 1970's. Its a real shame that Cardiff-Swansea is not being electrified to complete the project as originally planned, but after riding on this train in diesel mode, there really is not much difference to passengers in noise and timings can still be improved between Swansea and Cardiff
 

Domh245

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Can 802s be converted to electric-only (as I believe the 800s can)?

They certainly should be able to be converted. They are to all intents and purposes the same train as the 800s, with the differences as noted by @jimm. The chances of them ever having the opportunity to be converted to full electric (with a limp-home engine as per the 801s) is rather small though
 

xotGD

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History repeats itself. Deltics replaced A4's, Flying Bananas replaced beloved deltics. IEP replaces HST. Given time the enthusiast will come to appreciate the new kid on the block.
Just a thought does anyone miss the 105's
Saying as the 105s were replaced with bendy buses that we are still enduring, then yes, I miss the 105s and other 1st gen bog-units, and will do until their replacement is an improvement. Nabbing the ex-1st class armchairs in a 101 trailer made for a very comfortable (if bouncy!) journey; compare and contrast being stuck with an ex Merseyrail 142.
 

43096

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A lot of it is just 'online culture' - people goad one another on, it happens everywhere. New product is released -> product has minor fault -> Youtuber makes video of fault -> 10,000 morons join in going 'hur hur' for years, even after the fault has been fixed with a firmware update.
The other side of course, is those people who just think new = better or new = brilliant without thinking about whether it really is a backwards or forwards step. Bit like this:

In between you have the balanced view that takes into account the strengths and weaknesses.

That's why the good forums are the ones with moderators ;)
You might want to extract your tongue from the moderators' collective fundamental orifice...
 

DarloRich

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It seems to me that while some people don't have a problem with the new Class 800/801 trains as a whole, there are some people out there who have a die hard dislike for them. Their reasons are that they're cramped and uncomfortable with the vibrations and seat designs. However, I read these at a time when the trains weren't even in service yet. It seems to me that some people are just jumping on the bandwagon, and others might just be blinded by their nostalgia goggles with their love of the HST.

By no means is the HST a bad train, in fact I dare say it's the greatest train running today (not my favourite, but more the fact it's still lasted after so many years and has a great legacy and love from passengers), but let's be honest, no way would they last forever. So would you agree that there seems to be a bandwagon of hate with people who just don't like them cause they're replacing the train they so love so much? If you've recently travelled on one of the new trains then let me know your experience and whether these criticisms hold any merit.

No band wagon of hate here, just a 27 seater of cynicism. As always my test will be: Is the new train at least as comfortable for second class passengers as the train it replaces

Many here are blind to the fact that new and shiny rarely equates to best or even better from a passenger comfort point of view. I think it is because they haven't had the ability to travel on anything other than a voyager so they assume twas ever thus.
 

fowler9

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I'll admit I do generally prefer older rolling stock but I'm looking forward to trying out an 800 whenever that happens. It is a type I am considering going out of my way to travel on.
 

superkev

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I suspect the IEP's will like the equally viewed as too expensive at the time Routemaster bus it will in 40 years time have the last laugh.
K
 

Tetchytyke

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No band wagon of hate here, just a 27 seater of cynicism. As always my test will be: Is the new train at least as comfortable for second class passengers as the train it replaces

Same here.

I think the Javelins are uncomfortable and tacky, cheap plastic rubbish. The mockups of the IEP make me think it is the same. But I won't know until I've had the chance of riding on some, for a distance. And then again how they hold up after a couple of years.

When the Voyagers were in testing service I liked them, as they were clean and shiny and ran in doubles. I soon learned my mistake. So now I'm cynical.
 
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