Tram Penalty

Tetchytyke · 16 Oct 2017

Sussex Guy said:
That's ridiculous, even staff have been confused by the arrangements at Wimbledon and just to be clear far from avoiding payment the mistake that the OP made would have cost him more anyway due to being charged for an incomplete journey.

Indeed. I genuinely do not understand how someone can be charged a penalty fare for "not paying" when they have been charged a maximum fare for their journey.

This isn't a case of not touching in at all, and the situation at Wimbledon only exists in the way it does because of revenue protection concerns for SWR and Underground.

RailUK Forums

Jaybee111 · 16 Oct 2017

Well I have drafted my appeal. It is 4.5 pages long (so I excuse Mojo from his kind offer to proof read it!) and I will let you all know how it goes ...

furlong · 16 Oct 2017

Jaybee111 said:
Well I have drafted my appeal. It is 4.5 pages long (so I excuse Mojo from his kind offer to proof read it!) and I will let you all know how it goes ...

That sounds extremely long! You have read the documentation for the penalty fares scheme against which your appeal gets assessed, so you can understand how you hope they will process it, yes?

Jaybee111 · 16 Oct 2017

Thank you yes. The first page sums up the background of what happened on the day (pretty much what I set out in the original post). The second and third page address the points made in their rejection of my first stage appeal (in particular (1) the, frankly rubbish, about how tapping in at the gate only allows you to use the Underground when I have travelled from that station daily for years on the rail service with no problem; and (2) then the inadequacy of the signage). The last page explains why this was an honest mistake as opposed to deliberate fare evasion.

The heads of appeal relevant to me are (1) the original decision to issue the Penalty Fare Notice was incorrect; or (2) There is a significant and relevant mitigation and evidence put forward by the appellant to justify discretion. I don't know about (1) If as a matter of strict liability I had to tap in the second time at the platform, then I fail that test. Accordingly I am broadly aiming at head (2).

island · 16 Oct 2017

hawk1911 said:
As a matter of interest, would this be covered by the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and, in particular, the part covering Unfair Contract Terms, which includes ensuring that contract terms, including those in notices, must be transparent?

If the above comments are to believed, then the terms and conditions, pertaining to the use of trams at Wimbledon, are anything but transparent to the average person.

Unfair contract terms laws apply to contracts. They do not apply to other laws.

Antman · 17 Oct 2017

Clip said:
so youre claiming that ignorance is a defence now? That's pretty impressive - let me know how you get on with that if you ever fall foul of the law sometime

What an utterly ridiculous comment, even staff at Wimbledon get confused by the arrangements if you read earlier postings.

Jaybee111 · 17 Oct 2017

Sussex Guy said:
What an utterly ridiculous comment, even staff at Wimbledon get confused by the arrangements if you read earlier postings.

I have since discovered through this process that the "Wimbledon situation" is complicated enough to warrant its own little description in the Conditions of Carriage! An honour it shares only with Elmers End. If I ever plan to go there, I will make sure I read all about it in advance :lol:

Antman · 17 Oct 2017

Jaybee111 said:
I have since discovered through this process that the "Wimbledon situation" is complicated enough to warrant its own little description in the Conditions of Carriage! An honour it shares only with Elmers End. If I ever plan to go there, I will make sure I read all about it in advance

I hadn't really thought about Elmers End, no ticket gates there so not quite as much potential for confusion.

MikeWh · 17 Oct 2017

Sussex Guy said:
I hadn't really thought about Elmers End, no ticket gates there so not quite as much potential for confusion.

No gates, but you still have to use the right validators. You pass several rail validators before getting to the tram ones. It's covered on my site.

Antman · 17 Oct 2017

MikeWh said:
No gates, but you still have to use the right validators. You pass several rail validators before getting to the tram ones. It's covered on my site.

The main reason for the confusion at Wimbledon seems to be that people think once they've touched in at the ticket gates that's all they need to do?

londonbridge · 17 Oct 2017

Clip said:
Also id like to point out that ignorance of how something works is not a defence. Theres plenty of information around about the Wimbledon situation and if people choose not to search that information out and don't abide by the rules then this is what happens.

PeterC said:
Why do I suddenly think of the opening chapter of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy?

You mean information which is 'on display in a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory in the basement with a sign on the door saying "Beware Of The Leopard".........'

MikeWh · 17 Oct 2017

Sussex Guy said:
The main reason for the confusion at Wimbledon seems to be that people think once they've touched in at the ticket gates that's all they need to do?

And regular tram users who are used to touching a validator before getting on a tram find themselves at Elmers End and don't realise the subtle difference between two sets of validators. Having said that, I believe that signage is improving and I haven't been there for quite a while.

Clip · 17 Oct 2017

Sussex Guy said:
What an utterly ridiculous comment, even staff at Wimbledon get confused by the arrangements if you read earlier postings.

no its a perfectly reasonable comment. Whether or not staff at Wimbledon get confused by the signage right next to them I will repeat my statement which is factually correct

Ignorance is not a defence.

Antman · 17 Oct 2017

Clip said:
no its a perfectly reasonable comment. Whether or not staff at Wimbledon get confused by the signage right next to them I will repeat my statement which is factually correct

Ignorance is not a defence.

You are just being ridiculous. Anyway the point is not so much about the arrangements at Wimbledon but why should somebody who is clearly not intent on avoiding payment be charged a PF?

Clip · 18 Oct 2017

Sussex Guy said:
You are just being ridiculous.

I think youll find that I am merely stating a fact and facts generally are not ridiculous.

Anyway the point is not so much about the arrangements at Wimbledon but why should somebody who is clearly not intent on avoiding payment be charged a PF

Indeed it is my view that they shouldn't be as they would've got the tube fare or max fare instead but that is only my opinion.

paddington · 18 Oct 2017

Sussex Guy said:
You are just being ridiculous. Anyway the point is not so much about the arrangements at Wimbledon but why should somebody who is clearly not intent on avoiding payment be charged a PF?

A PF is supposed to be charged when someone has the wrong ticket but clearly did not intend to avoid payment.

If you intended to avoid paying then you should be prosecuted.

I agree that it is harsh to be PFd for this, and if I was in charge I would instruct RPIs to let people off, but I can't see how the RPI did anything wrong by the letter of the rules.

I suppose if sufficient time had passed since entering Wimbledon, it would have been possible to take a train to Wimbledon Chase / Raynes Park / South Merton etc but not touch out, then walk back to a tram stop and not pay for the tram. I have actually had to do this once, although I did pay for all trips properly.

Can anyone think of a situatoin where a ticket appears to be valid but actually isn't, yet costs more than a ticket that is valid?

matt_world2004 · 18 Oct 2017

paddington said:
Can anyone think of a situatoin where a ticket appears to be valid but actually isn't, yet costs more than a ticket that is valid?

Heathrow to ealing broadway/paddington on hc/hex on the picadilly line.

hawk1911 · 18 Oct 2017

island said:
Unfair contract terms laws apply to contracts. They do not apply to other laws.

http://www.gov.uk/government/publications/consumer-rights-act-application-to-transport-services

gray1404 · 19 Oct 2017

Good luck with your appeal and well done for sticking to your principles on this one. Hopefully TFL will be fair and see sense and do the right thing.

Jaybee111 · 20 Oct 2017

Mini update in case it is helpful to anyone. I called to pay the Penalty Fare, but told the very sympathetic lady I was speaking to that it was under appeal. She told me that I would be entitled to at claim back the £5.40 that I was charged when tapping in at the Wimbledon gate(!) for using the Underground. Something about an "unstarted" journey. She gave me the number to call (03432221234) or said that I could claim it at the tramlink shop at Croydon. No one answered on the number. However, I might try at the tramlink shop (obviously after tapping in on Platform 10 with my brand new Zone 1 - 3 travelcard!)

Antman · 20 Oct 2017

Jaybee111 said:
Mini update in case it is helpful to anyone. I called to pay the Penalty Fare, but told the very sympathetic lady I was speaking to that it was under appeal. She told me that I would be entitled to at claim back the £5.40 that I was charged when tapping in at the Wimbledon gate(!) for using the Underground. Something about an "unstarted" journey. She gave me the number to call (03432221234) or said that I could claim it at the tramlink shop at Croydon. No one answered on the number. However, I might try at the tramlink shop (obviously after tapping in on Platform 10 with my brand new Zone 1 - 3 travelcard!)

Forgive me if I'm missing something here but when I appealed a parking ticket I wasn't required to pay anything until after the appeal which was successful. Shouldn't the same apply in this case?

Haywain · 20 Oct 2017

N

Sussex Guy said:
Forgive me if I'm missing something here but when I appealed a parking ticket I wasn't required to pay anything until after the appeal which was successful. Shouldn't the same apply in this case?

No, because it isn't the same thing and the rules are different.

Antman · 20 Oct 2017

Haywain said:
N

No, because it isn't the same thing and the rules are different.

Well maybe these rules need changing? You know like innocent until proven guilty?

Jaybee111 · 20 Oct 2017

Sussex Guy said:
Forgive me if I'm missing something here but when I appealed a parking ticket I wasn't required to pay anything until after the appeal which was successful. Shouldn't the same apply in this case?

The letter from First Tram Operations said I had 14 days from the date of the letter to either further appeal or pay (which actually meant I had closer to 11 days by the time I received the letter since it comes by snail mail). I have sent off my second appeal, but I am reliant on Royal Mail / the Enforcement department getting the letter and getting it in time (it is due by next Wednesday). I didn't want to throw good money after bad by paying in excess of £7 for guaranteed delivery and definitely didn't want to run the risk of the £40 fine doubling to £80. So I paid the penalty fare and if I am successful I should receive a refund. At this point I just don't trust the process so I am trying to reduce risk.

Jaybee111 · 20 Oct 2017

Sussex Guy said:
Well maybe these rules need changing? You know like innocent until proven guilty?

What would actually be really helpful is if you could write to them by email. That way you could know that the appeal is received and that the clock has stopped ticking. But that option doesn't seem to be available (unsurprisingly - I am sure a lot of revenue is raised by making people go through these hoops).

Antman · 20 Oct 2017

Jaybee111 said:
What would actually be really helpful is if you could write to them by email. That way you could know that the appeal is received and that the clock has stopped ticking. But that option doesn't seem to be available (unsurprisingly - I am sure a lot of revenue is raised by making people go through these hoops).

The more I'm reading about this the more the whole thing stinks, I mean what sort of business can't be contacted by e-mail in this day and age?

As has been said before on here an independent ombudsman is needed to adjudicate.

furlong · 20 Oct 2017

Jaybee111 said:
entitled to at claim back the £5.40 that I was charged when tapping in at the Wimbledon gate

Wait a bit for the result of the appeal though, as claiming it back early could damage your appeal if one of the arguments in the appeal is that that payment constituted your fare.

Gerald Fiennes · 21 Oct 2017

You might also contact Stephen Hammond MP, formerly a transport minister, who has always taken a strong interest in improving bus and rail transport in the Wimbledon area (his constituency) and in promoting smartcards. No doubt his office has a large file of similar complaints about the tram ...

island · 22 Oct 2017

furlong said:
Wait a bit for the result of the appeal though, as claiming it back early could damage your appeal if one of the arguments in the appeal is that that payment constituted your fare.

...but not too long, as the journey details are liable to be kept for only 8 weeks.

Busaholic · 22 Oct 2017

Sussex Guy said:
The more I'm reading about this the more the whole thing stinks, I mean what sort of business can't be contacted by e-mail in this day and age?

As has been said before on here an independent ombudsman is needed to adjudicate.

Sadiq Khan at London Assembly questions on September 14th was directly asked by a member whether he would appoint an ombudsman and his (indirect) reply was that TfL were answerable to him while he, in turn, was answerable to the Assembly and, through them, the general public. So no ombudsman.

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