Isle of Wight steam railway future?

Cowley · 17 Oct 2017

I've never started a poll before but I thought it might be interesting.
I've started this after following the thread 'Island Line Railway - current state and the future' (I'd link it if I wasn't me).

I'm interested in peoples opinions on this. I'm unsure, hence starting a thread. These are the thoughts on my mind:

Yes:

Serving somewhere of importance on the Island with the added trade it would pull in.
Having in Ryde st Johns an impressive station (imagine it painted in Southern/BR green) and potential engineering centre, plus more storage.
A longer ride and greater exposure in a larger town.
A double line trackbed ready to share.

No:

More costs.
It works well so why change it?
Even if it does serve Ryde it still doesn't exactly serve a tourist hotspot at the other end - Wootton is nice but not up there with some of the more important towns like Newport or Cowes.
There just isn't the trade (or the volunteers) to support an operation like this.

The grey area:

What happens if the Island Line doesn't survive? Do they bid for the section to Sandown and Shanklin for a nominal figure perhaps? Maybe just the section to Ryde? It seems like there's a group trying to save any section of railway (no matter how remote) these days.
Could the section from the back of Ryde down to the south coast end up being used as a faster bus route maybe? Thus preventing any extension of the steam railway anyway?

If there's anyone on here involved with the Isle of Wight steam railway I'd love to hear your opinions.
Well anyone's opinions actually.

RailUK Forums

STEVIEBOY1 · 17 Oct 2017

I thought that there are or were plans for the Isle of Wight to operate into Ryde St Johns. I don't think it can go further towards Ryde owing to a raised track bed/low bridge.

341o2 · 17 Oct 2017

The proposal to extend seemed fairly serious a couple of years ago. If implemented, Smallbrook would be closed and the passing loop at Brading reinstated. The Island line would use platform 3 at St Johns Rd, while the steam railway would use 1 and 2.

The steam railway has said it had no plans to extend to Pierhead, due to costs. When the Island Line was electrified, tracks were raised to accomadate the tube stock at stations, and through Ryde tunnels to alleviate flooding. The second line to Pierhead has been out of use for several years and would need a considerable amount of work to be useable. Without run round facilities at Pierhead, a second locomotive would be needed

mushroomchow · 17 Oct 2017

I still think an extension westward to the outskirts of Newport should be a priority for the IOWSR. It's one of the few places on the island with little going for it "tourism"-wise, but still represents a large potential destination, even if extending into the town itself is never going to happen.

There's plenty of room alongside the A 3054 for a platform and runround loop with associated amenities in a visible location. Money and land acquisition permitting, it's a far more realistic goal for as long as Island Line continues - which, as a railway enthusiast, I would hope will be for perpetuity!

STEVIEBOY1 · 18 Oct 2017

mushroomchow said:
I still think an extension westward to the outskirts of Newport should be a priority for the IOWSR. It's one of the few places on the island with little going for it "tourism"-wise, but still represents a large potential destination, even if extending into the town itself is never going to happen.

There's plenty of room alongside the A 3054 for a platform and runround loop with associated amenities in a visible location. Money and land acquisition permitting, it's a far more realistic goal for as long as Island Line continues - which, as a railway enthusiast, I would hope will be for perpetuity!

Yes going towards Newport would also be a very good idea.

A0wen · 18 Oct 2017

341o2 said:
The proposal to extend seemed fairly serious a couple of years ago. If implemented, Smallbrook would be closed and the passing loop at Brading reinstated. The Island line would use platform 3 at St Johns Rd, while the steam railway would use 1 and 2.

The steam railway has said it had no plans to extend to Pierhead, due to costs. When the Island Line was electrified, tracks were raised to accomadate the tube stock at stations, and through Ryde tunnels to alleviate flooding. The second line to Pierhead has been out of use for several years and would need a considerable amount of work to be useable. Without run round facilities at Pierhead, a second locomotive would be needed

I think the key to it is one of the tracks from Smallbrook to St Johns would be handed over to the IOWSR, with the Island line being single track St Johns - Brading, hence the reintroduction of the passing loop there.

Wootton Bridge to the edge of Newport is as far as the IOWSR is going to get the other way, there's no route into Newport as the formation has been lost. Somewhere around the Medina Leisure / College is the limit.

mushroomchow · 18 Oct 2017

A0wen said:
Wootton Bridge to the edge of Newport is as far as the IOWSR is going to get the other way, there's no route into Newport as the formation has been lost. Somewhere around the Medina Leisure / College is the limit.

Very true, a damn shame the island's only dual carriageway had to be built on the original trackbed. But I'm not convinced that extending right into town is even necessary - it might even prove detrimental if they want a proper-sized terminus to take some of the parking and visitor pressure off of Havenstreet, which can be a nightmare during summer peaks.

There is more than enough room for a terminus with associated sidings and amenities on the original alignment near the new solar farm on the A3054 at Binfield. I don't see why that couldn't be a realistic extension target, and it's in a far more "visible" location than the current line, being as it is along the main road between the island's two biggest towns, and a mere brown signpost from the East Cowes ferry terminal.

Not that the railway is exactly struggling to attract visitors, but I do think it could benefit from a more prominent western terminus. Wootton Bridge isn't exactly the most well-known about or accessible part of the island, and there's nothing stopping them in terms of trackbed encroachment or development at the site I've mentioned. The only issue I can really think of would be access and egress onto what is a busy road, but I'm sure something could be worked out.

341o2 · 18 Oct 2017

A0wen said:
I think the key to it is one of the tracks from Smallbrook to St Johns would be handed over to the IOWSR, with the Island line being single track St Johns - Brading, hence the reintroduction of the passing loop there.

Exactly. The proposal was to connect the steam railway with the up (in terms of going to London) or LH track looking north, the down would be used by the Island line. Smallbrook would then be redundant as the interchange would be at St Johns.

Reinstatement of the passing loop at Brading would allow the introduction of a regular service of two trains per hour instead of the rather awkward 20/40 service at present

341o2 · 18 Oct 2017

mushroomchow said:
Very true, a damn shame the island's only dual carriageway had to be built on the original trackbed. But I'm not convinced that extending right into town is even necessary - it might even prove detrimental if they want a proper-sized terminus to take some of the parking and visitor pressure off of Havenstreet, which can be a nightmare during summer peaks.

There is more than enough room for a terminus with associated sidings and amenities on the original alignment near the new solar farm on the A3054 at Binfield. I don't see why that couldn't be a realistic extension target, and it's in a far more "visible" location than the current line, being as it is along the main road between the island's two biggest towns, and a mere brown signpost from the East Cowes ferry terminal.

Not that the railway is exactly struggling to attract visitors, but I do think it could benefit from a more prominent western terminus. Wootton Bridge isn't exactly the most well-known about or accessible part of the island, and there's nothing stopping them in terms of trackbed encroachment or development at the site I've mentioned. The only issue I can really think of would be access and egress onto what is a busy road, but I'm sure something could be worked out.

I agree re Wootton, looked at a visit to the steam railway starting with the Lymington to Yarmouth ferry, saw the bus times and said "no way"

Cowley · 18 Oct 2017

I like the idea of extending (as mushroomchow says) out towards Newport to a potential terminus on the A3054. It would as said give a more noticeable presence in a busy area. Perhaps even served on high days by heritage buses running between East Cowes and Newport?

Going back to Ryde st Johns would also be great for the railway in many ways, although I've no idea how many volunteers there are that are involved with the line and willing to work on either project.
It's always seemed very well run to me but either of these plans would no doubt swallow lots of money and actually change the makeup of the railway in a quite a big way.
I'd love to see it though.

Chris125 · 19 Oct 2017

Please note that the IWSR have a comprehensive 'Strategic Vision' document, updated this year.

6. Ryde St. John’s Road
We are actively pursuing the opportunity to extend our operations into Ryde St. John’s Road
station and, if this becomes possible, will seek to maximise the commercial and other
opportunities it may provide. We acknowledge that any such extension may radically alter our
operations and may trigger a review of this document.

7. Newport
The policy to extend to Newport if and when realistic will remain, although we see no
immediate prospect of this happening. We are aware that the former Whippingham station,
which is another rare example of an IW Central Railway station building, still remains largely
intact. We have no immediate plans to pursue or fund its acquisition, but nonetheless we would
welcome it into our ownership as a long-term heritage asset should a Newport extension
become feasible.

341o2 said:

The proposal to extend seemed fairly serious a couple of years ago. If implemented, Smallbrook would be closed and the passing loop at Brading reinstated. The Island line would use platform 3 at St Johns Rd, while the steam railway would use 1 and 2.

Click to expand...

Though later deferred, Network Rail were planning to renew the signalling during the 2012 Olympics - IIRC their plans involved moving the passing place to Brading and were in discussions with the IWSR about an extension to Ryde St Johns.

Cowley · 19 Oct 2017

Chris125 said:
Please note that the IWSR have a comprehensive 'Strategic Vision' document, updated this year.

6. Ryde St. John’s Road
We are actively pursuing the opportunity to extend our operations into Ryde St. John’s Road
station and, if this becomes possible, will seek to maximise the commercial and other
opportunities it may provide. We acknowledge that any such extension may radically alter our
operations and may trigger a review of this document.

7. Newport
The policy to extend to Newport if and when realistic will remain, although we see no
immediate prospect of this happening. We are aware that the former Whippingham station,
which is another rare example of an IW Central Railway station building, still remains largely
intact. We have no immediate plans to pursue or fund its acquisition, but nonetheless we would
welcome it into our ownership as a long-term heritage asset should a Newport extension
become feasible.

Though later deferred, Network Rail were planning to renew the signalling during the 2012 Olympics - IIRC their plans involved moving the passing place to Brading and were in discussions with the IWSR about an extension to Ryde St Johns.

Thanks for linking the above Chris. I've just spent a bit of time looking through it and one thing that interested me was that it said if in the unlikely case the Island Line was closed although they would not seek to run the service as a public transport undertaking, they would actively pursue the prospect of running services over parts of it as a heritage operation.

Interesting stuff. It also mentions the idea of acquiring Whippingham station as a long term possibility.
I must admit that I spent some time looking at my OS map last night to see what might be done with large funds available.
It's always nice to dream...

341o2 · 19 Oct 2017

Thank you for this information. Looking at Whippingham on the map, it would seem that when the Ryde - Newport line was built, they must have been paid by the mile.

In terms of old electric locomotives, an event is being held at Hythe pier to celebrate 100 years of its locomotives built 1917 and transferred to the pier railway in 1922 on October 28, so the Island line stock has a few more years to go!

SpacePhoenix · 19 Oct 2017

What would be involved with infrastructure if the IoW Railway were to take over the track to Ryde St Johns? Would it be expensive work for the railway? I'm guessing a fair way into the 10's thousands, probably somewhere in the 100s thousands

mushroomchow · 20 Oct 2017

I just had a fascinating read about the attempts to develop a railbus for the Cowes line in the 1960s. Turns out there was actually a prototype which ran trains at Droxford in Hampshire for a number of years before vandalism killed the project. What might have been, eh?

You learn something new every day!

shredder1 · 20 Oct 2017

I`d be surprised if anyone voted against it, we are enthusiasts on here after all.

341o2 · 20 Oct 2017

mushroomchow said:
I just had a fascinating read about the attempts to develop a railbus for the Cowes line in the 1960s. Turns out there was actually a prototype which ran trains at Droxford in Hampshire for a number of years before vandalism killed the project. What might have been, eh?

You learn something new every day!

Indeed, a company named Sadler Vectrail offered to take over the Newport - Cowes line on a commercial basis, the prototype was based on a road coach body manufactured by Strachens of Hamble

Quote (where are the quote tags?

After the 1962 closure of the southern portion of the line, a Mr. Charles Ashby purchased Droxford station and the right to run trains over the railway. He used it for testing a design of railbus that he had developed called the Sadler Rail Coach or 'Pacerailer'. Like the similarly named British Rail 'Pacer' of later years, this was essentially a bus-style vehicle. Unlike the later BR types, the Sadler Rail Coach used road-vehicle style pneumatic tyres on its drive wheels and flanged steel wheels at each end to guide it along the track. As well as the MVR itself, a special steep-gradient section of track was built for testing at Droxford. A company called Sadler Vectrail Ltd was established in 1966 to re-open the Ryde to Cowes railway on the Isle of Wight using Sadler Rail Coaches and the prototype vehicle appeared briefly at an Island Industries Fair but the scheme was unsuccessful.

Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meon_Valley_Railway

AndyY1951 · 20 Oct 2017

shredder1 said:
I`d be surprised if anyone voted against it, we are enthusiasts on here after all.

As a newcomer to this forum I do hope we are enthusiasts here. I'm on another railway forum where genuine enthusiasts and optimists seem to be outnumbered by naysayers and doom-mongers who can only imagine reasons why extensions will never succeed and all projects are doomed to fail!
Andy

Cowley · 20 Oct 2017

AndyY1951 said:
As a newcomer to this forum I do hope we are enthusiasts here. I'm on another railway forum where genuine enthusiasts and optimists seem to be outnumbered by naysayers and doom-mongers who can only imagine reasons why extensions will never succeed and all projects are doomed to fail!
Andy

Hi and welcome Andy.
I think as far as it goes with preserved railways and possible extensions there is plenty of optimism to be found the forum.
Especially when it comes to some of the more established railways.
I suppose I can be (and have been occasionally) sceptical about some schemes, but I'll be the first to say how incredible our preserved railways have become over the years.

cav1975 · 20 Oct 2017

341o2 said:
After the 1962 closure of the southern portion of the line, a Mr. Charles Ashby purchased Droxford station and the right to run trains over the railway. He used it for testing a design of railbus that he had developed called the Sadler Rail Coach or 'Pacerailer'. Like the similarly named British Rail 'Pacer' of later years, this was essentially a bus-style vehicle. Unlike the later BR types, the Sadler Rail Coach used road-vehicle style pneumatic tyres on its drive wheels and flanged steel wheels at each end to guide it along the track. As well as the MVR itself, a special steep-gradient section of track was built for testing at Droxford. A company called Sadler Vectrail Ltd was established in 1966 to re-open the Ryde to Cowes railway on the Isle of Wight using Sadler Rail Coaches and the prototype vehicle appeared briefly at an Island Industries Fair but the scheme was unsuccessful.

Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meon_Valley_Railway

Most usefully Mr Ashby also purchased class A1/x terrier No. 32646 which it is alleged he used to compare with his modern railbus during demonstrations to prospective customers/partners. When the project closed he sold 32646 to Whitbread who exhibited it outside the Hayling Billy pub. When they in turn finished with it they gifted it to the Isle of Wight Steam Railway where it now runs as W8 Freshwater.

shredder1 · 24 Oct 2017

AndyY1951 said:
As a newcomer to this forum I do hope we are enthusiasts here. I'm on another railway forum where genuine enthusiasts and optimists seem to be outnumbered by naysayers and doom-mongers who can only imagine reasons why extensions will never succeed and all projects are doomed to fail!
Andy

Welcome to the site Andy, its a very good well run website, most apprear to be very good, knowledgable and friendly enthusiasts, you do get the odd weirdo, but I suppose that applies to all websites

mushroomchow · 24 Oct 2017

cav1975 said:
Most usefully Mr Ashby also purchased class A1/x terrier No. 32646 which it is alleged he used to compare with his modern railbus during demonstrations to prospective customers/partners. When the project closed he sold 32646 to Whitbread who exhibited it outside the Hayling Billy pub. When they in turn finished with it they gifted it to the Isle of Wight Steam Railway where it now runs as W8 Freshwater.

Well I'm glad some good came of the scheme then!

It's a shame something couldn't be done with the Newport-Cowes trackbed - it's quite a nice route. A little narrow-gauge job would do nicely.

Calthrop · 25 Oct 2017

341o2 said:
The proposal to extend seemed fairly serious a couple of years ago. If implemented, Smallbrook would be closed and the passing loop at Brading reinstated. The Island line would use platform 3 at St Johns Rd, while the steam railway would use 1 and 2.

The steam railway has said it had no plans to extend to Pierhead, due to costs. When the Island Line was electrified, tracks were raised to accomadate the tube stock at stations, and through Ryde tunnels to alleviate flooding. The second line to Pierhead has been out of use for several years and would need a considerable amount of work to be useable. Without run round facilities at Pierhead, a second locomotive would be needed

I've voted "yes" -- following heart, even if sometimes at odds with head -- as is my wont.

I have always much liked the idea -- and hoped for its becoming reality -- of the IOW Steam Railway's coming to run into Ryde St. John's Road station. This would give to the line, for me, a better "real railway" feel. Just satisfying, for me, to have the railway's trains running actually into Ryde town, as was up to 1966 -- I have no problem about "steam on to Esplanade and Pier Head" never again being on the cards. And before the Grouping, St. John's Road was after all, the division point between line ownership by the Island's railways; and jointly by the LSW / LBSC, from there to Pier Head, though worked by Isle of Wight Ry. / Isle of Wight Central Ry. locos and stock. (This, plus the pier tramway being in the mix, has always struck me as quite gloriously barmy -- only in pre-Grouping Britain ! -- or perhaps the USA too...)

I'd feel no sorrow at Smallbrook Junction station's ceasing to be. Though very glad that this arrangement came to be possible -- with the Steam Railway thus being able to be sense-makingly linked to the Island's microcosm of the railway wider world, instead of being a daft isolated stretch of line "from nowhere to nowhere" -- I'd be happier still at the possibility of things becoming a better approximation of how they were "for real" up to 1966: the Junction station has always struck me as a rather silly-and-gimcrack-feeling set-up -- though much better than the "isolation" alternative.

Calthrop · 25 Oct 2017

341o2 said:
I agree re Wootton, looked at a visit to the steam railway starting with the Lymington to Yarmouth ferry, saw the bus times and said "no way"

Not doubting you, but I feel a bit surprised. I visit the Isle of Wight frequently, and on my visits make a lot of use of Southern Vectis's bus services -- am impressed by the frequency and efficiency of many of such; and island distances are not great. Half-hourly services between Yarmouth, and Newport bus station; and Newport bus station, and Ryde via Wootton station -- however, sometimes one is working under rather severe time-limitations...

Calthrop · 25 Oct 2017

shredder1 said:
I`d be surprised if anyone voted against it, we are enthusiasts on here after all.

There's a wide variety of participants on RailForumsUK: from "gooey sentimentalists" to very hard-nosed practical sorts, sharply analytical re what appears or does not appear feasible (some of the latter nevertheless take an interest in preservation matters -- some don't) -- and multiple shades in between. Although I'm a fully-paid-up denizen of what a poster on the more hard-nosed side of the spectrum has called in another thread, "Dreamland" -- I personally find the variety of points of view, refreshing; preferable for me, to an "echo chamber" wherein everyone would view things just like everyone else, with reinforcing to match.

Calthrop · 25 Oct 2017

341o2 said:
A company called Sadler Vectrail Ltd was established in 1966 to re-open the Ryde to Cowes railway on the Isle of Wight using Sadler Rail Coaches and the prototype vehicle appeared briefly at an Island Industries Fair but the scheme was unsuccessful.

Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meon_Valley_Railway

Reopening westward to Newport or as near thereto as practical, would feel an attractive prospect; and, a personal quirk of mine -- "the longer a preserved line can be, the better". (Not an opinion -- as I realise -- always whole-heartedly endorsed by the "punters" on whose fares the line depends.) In the realm of "ideal best possible outcomes" -- for me, it would have been lovely for the Ryde -- Newport -- Cowes route to have been able to survive in its entirety post-1966: if only the Sadler Vectrail outfit's hopes had been realised... and they and the steam preservationists could, one hopes, have worked things out to mutual advantage.

mushroomchow · 26 Oct 2017

Calthrop said:
Reopening westward to Newport or as near thereto as practical, would feel an attractive prospect; and, a personal quirk of mine -- "the longer a preserved line can be, the better".

It would be interesting to see what distance could feasibly be considered "optimal" for the IOWSR. I read somewhere that lines with the best profit margins from the non-enthusiast crowd (which, if we're being honest, is most people who visit the Island) tend to be around 5-6 miles long, which would probably mean the steam line is as long as it needs to be. However, there are plenty of exceptions - the Severn Valley, Paignton and Dartmouth and West Somerset are all considerably longer and do a roaring trade, but benefit from directly serving major towns in Paignton, Kidderminster and Minehead respectively - the sort of draw Newport or Ryde could provide for the IOWSR.

I'm not sure how much of the Island Line the steam railway could realistically take over running. My fear is that much of the southern section would be lost, at least beyond Brading as that's the most southern station I can think of with the room to develop proper heritage facilities and "terminus" infrastructure at.

The only real upside of closing Island Line I can think of would be that, without the requirement to prove economic benefit, they could reopen the route through to Ventnor - I used to stay in the holiday park in Shanklin, and the trackbed is pretty much entirely intact right to the edge of the town - a very nice walk but I'd far rather do it by train! I do recall it having been mentioned in passing a few times, but given that Island Line as a whole is nowhere near profitable, the chances of it ever getting off the ground "on network" are zero.

341o2 · 26 Oct 2017

Calthrop said:
Not doubting you, but I feel a bit surprised. I visit the Isle of Wight frequently, and on my visits make a lot of use of Southern Vectis's bus services -- am impressed by the frequency and efficiency of many of such; and island distances are not great. Half-hourly services between Yarmouth, and Newport bus station; and Newport bus station, and Ryde via Wootton station -- however, sometimes one is working under rather severe time-limitations...

Maybe I should rephrase my post as the real problem (for me) is getting to the ferry without the £6 parking fee. Then on the ferry, I find the steep stairs to the passenger lounges difficult, and on one crossing asked to stay on the car deck, but told no.

Chris125 · 26 Oct 2017

mushroomchow said:
The only real upside of closing Island Line I can think of would be that, without the requirement to prove economic benefit, they could reopen the route through to Ventnor - I used to stay in the holiday park in Shanklin, and the trackbed is pretty much entirely intact right to the edge of the town - a very nice walk but I'd far rather do it by train! I do recall it having been mentioned in passing a few times, but given that Island Line as a whole is nowhere near profitable, the chances of it ever getting off the ground "on network" are zero.

A heritage railway would still need an extension to make financial sense, both for their own financial sustainability and to attract grant funding.

I suspect reopening as a heritage line would be even harder to achieve - there are too many houses and businesses built on or using the trackbed, and a longer platform and run round loop at Ventnor would be even harder to accommodate in the industrial estate.

341o2 said:
Maybe I should rephrase my post as the real problem (for me) is getting to the ferry without the £6 parking fee. Then on the ferry, I find the steep stairs to the passenger lounges difficult, and on one crossing asked to stay on the car deck, but told no.

All the ferries have lifts now IIRC which should help?

Calthrop · 27 Oct 2017

mushroomchow said:
It would be interesting to see what distance could feasibly be considered "optimal" for the IOWSR. I read somewhere that lines with the best profit margins from the non-enthusiast crowd (which, if we're being honest, is most people who visit the Island) tend to be around 5-6 miles long, which would probably mean the steam line is as long as it needs to be.

It can be an unpalatable fact for some of us, that very many non-railway-enthusiast "punters" taking a ride on a preserved line, in fact prefer their journey to be relatively "short and sweet"; but -- imagining oneself in their shoes -- it is, after all, understandable.

However, there are plenty of exceptions - the Severn Valley, Paignton and Dartmouth and West Somerset are all considerably longer and do a roaring trade, but benefit from directly serving major towns in Paignton, Kidderminster and Minehead respectively - the sort of draw Newport or Ryde could provide for the IOWSR.

In my book, a preserved line which runs from "somewhere to somewhere" is almost always preferable to either of the alternatives which involve "nowhere" !

I'm not sure how much of the Island Line the steam railway could realistically take over running. My fear is that much of the southern section would be lost, at least beyond Brading as that's the most southern station I can think of with the room to develop proper heritage facilities and "terminus" infrastructure at.

Steam push-and-pull trains between Brading and Shanklin? I'm semi-serious; there'd even be, if I'm right, an authentic precedent -- haven't there been in the past, regular push-and-pull workings on some of the Island's lines?

Isle of Wight steam railway future?

Should the Isle of Wight steam railway grab the opportunity to extend to Ryde st John's Road?

Yes?

No?

It depends on other factors for example the Island Line closing/finances etc.

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