Which job would you choose?

Hi

I'm a LTRFTP <- has anyone coined this term yet?

Great forum, such valuable information from very helpful members.


While I understand the questions I'm about to ask is relative and more so to the person asking the question. I'm interested in your approach and first thoughts to my situation/choices

I am basing this on

• Good working environment/conditions
• Job security/sustainability
• Career progression
• Upskilling/development
• Diverse workforce with strong values on equal opportunities
• Earning potential is also a factor but not high priority as it will come based on job role

(Go-Ahead Group) Bus Driver - Full Time SUCESSFULL (will need to pass training/tests/exams)

Starting later this year, actually excited to do this, I love driving, being outside, interacting with people and just to do something very different to what I do now. It is longer hours and appears to not be the best working conditions. Shifts appear to be flexible with good OT opportunities. Ideally want to move to train driver role within the next 2 years possibly. Go Ahead operates the following franchises through the Govia group which might allow internal transfers for trainee train drivers; it's question I'll raise at some point.

(GWR) - Paddington Train Manager - Full Time - STAGE 2
Exciting prospect here, at assessment stage and based on the job specifications I am confident I can deliver, however time will tell. I am unable to measure their company culture and working environment until I go to Swindon/Paddington offices.

(TFL) - London CSA1/2 Full Time - Stage 3
This appeals to me most mainly due to the working conditions, strong union, sustainable income, internal recruitment opportunities, training and development. I went for the PT Train Operator role and didn't get to the finale stage. Essentially a train driver role would be very rewarding but unsure how realistic it is to move internally once working for TFL.

What role would take precedence to you?

eastldn said:

Hi

I'm a LTRFTP <- has anyone coined this term yet?

Great forum, such valuable information from very helpful members.


While I understand the questions I'm about to ask is relative and more so to the person asking the question. I'm interested in your approach and first thoughts to my situation/choices

I am basing this on

• Good working environment/conditions
• Job security/sustainability
• Career progression
• Upskilling/development
• Diverse workforce with strong values on equal opportunities
• Earning potential is also a factor but not high priority as it will come based on job role

(Go-Ahead Group) Bus Driver - Full Time SUCESSFULL (will need to pass training/tests/exams)

Starting later this year, actually excited to do this, I love driving, being outside, interacting with people and just to do something very different to what I do now. It is longer hours and appears to not be the best working conditions. Shifts appear to be flexible with good OT opportunities. Ideally want to move to train driver role within the next 2 years possibly. Go Ahead operates the following franchises through the Govia group which might allow internal transfers for trainee train drivers; it's question I'll raise at some point.

(GWR) - Paddington Train Manager - Full Time - STAGE 2
Exciting prospect here, at assessment stage and based on the job specifications I am confident I can deliver, however time will tell. I am unable to measure their company culture and working environment until I go to Swindon/Paddington offices.

(TFL) - London CSA1/2 Full Time - Stage 3
This appeals to me most mainly due to the working conditions, strong union, sustainable income, internal recruitment opportunities, training and development. I went for the PT Train Operator role and didn't get to the finale stage. Essentially a train driver role would be very rewarding but unsure how realistic it is to move internally once working for TFL.

What role would take precedence to you?

Click to expand...

I know tfl took externals on for part time tube drivers however I read in the metro that since 2008 they had an agreement with unions to only use internals for full time .apparently after a year pt tube drivers can go full time

eastldn said:

Hi

I'm a LTRFTP <- has anyone coined this term yet?

Great forum, such valuable information from very helpful members.


While I understand the questions I'm about to ask is relative and more so to the person asking the question. I'm interested in your approach and first thoughts to my situation/choices

I am basing this on

• Good working environment/conditions
• Job security/sustainability
• Career progression
• Upskilling/development
• Diverse workforce with strong values on equal opportunities
• Earning potential is also a factor but not high priority as it will come based on job role

(Go-Ahead Group) Bus Driver - Full Time SUCESSFULL (will need to pass training/tests/exams)

Starting later this year, actually excited to do this, I love driving, being outside, interacting with people and just to do something very different to what I do now. It is longer hours and appears to not be the best working conditions. Shifts appear to be flexible with good OT opportunities. Ideally want to move to train driver role within the next 2 years possibly. Go Ahead operates the following franchises through the Govia group which might allow internal transfers for trainee train drivers; it's question I'll raise at some point.

(GWR) - Paddington Train Manager - Full Time - STAGE 2
Exciting prospect here, at assessment stage and based on the job specifications I am confident I can deliver, however time will tell. I am unable to measure their company culture and working environment until I go to Swindon/Paddington offices.

(TFL) - London CSA1/2 Full Time - Stage 3
This appeals to me most mainly due to the working conditions, strong union, sustainable income, internal recruitment opportunities, training and development. I went for the PT Train Operator role and didn't get to the finale stage. Essentially a train driver role would be very rewarding but unsure how realistic it is to move internally once working for TFL.

What role would take precedence to you?

Click to expand...

You seem pretty switched on.

Firstly, the bus operations and train operations of Go-Ahead are separate and I would be surprised if there was an option to "transfer" - I am sure you would need to apply for a train driving role as an external candidate the same as anyone else.

TfL protect driving roles for internal applicants, as a result of union pressure. I cannot tell you how long you'd have to wait, but consider this - what if you're not able to drive trains? What if you don't have the aptitude? What if you get stuck at MMI interview stage? Would you still be happy being a CSA?

I failed at the 2nd stage for the Pt train operator. Also the salary and working hours was a great balance between family life and work. I'm confident I know why I failed 2nd stage. I am a firm believer in persistance with these things.

Good insight on the goahead bus operation and train franchise being separate. Thank you.

If I'm not meeting or exceeding requirements for the train driver role I would look to progress to a senior or management role. My background is compliance and IT and enjoying the thought of being away from a desk and screen 8 hours a day.

If your aim is to be a Train Driver my number one option personally would be TFL CSA Role. Of course this doesn't guarantee you a place as a Train driver but interally you could apply to be a Tube driver wheras externally does not have that privilege. I also understand there are no limits as to how many times you can apply and fail assessments for Tube driver so if given the oppertunities there is a try try and keep trying mentality unlike mainline train driver which im sure is comforting. I am a Bus Driver and have been given a start date for a Train Driver position, my experience as a Bus Driver was invaluable during the interview processes however throughout my career I had been tryin countlessly to get a position in TFL so i could then apply for a Tube Driver. So in short both roles can get you there even as a CSA you could apply for a mainline position and your safety experience should definetly help. Personally I would choose the TFL option as it gives more of a wider variety of options and it was something I was trying so hard to do prior, but in saying that being a Bus Driver got me here in the end anyway. Can't really speak for the Train Manager role but once again can imagine will be excellent experience to gain and likewise with TFL maybe oppertunity to apply internally for GWR Train driver positions. Seems like you're not in a bad position at all mate hope you make the right choice for yourself.

Oh and forgot to add no you wouldnt be able to apply internally for Train Driver positions as Bus Driver no matter the company. It might be the same company/parent company but totally different divisions so you would have to apply from scratch as an external. Even when putting the same company name in the current work experience field on application forms doesn't batter an eyelid from the HR sifters. Believe me i've been there ha

If i was starting my career now, the choice i would make would be made in this order:

1. Go Ahead Bus Driver. It covers 5 of the main points you mentioned, most importantly job security. The bad point would be the working conditions, driving a bus in London is stressful and as you have already gathered compared to railway work is poorly paid.

2. CSA TFL. Many changes have taken place on the underground, especially to staffing levels, however if you want to be a driver on the tube that has better job security then any of the other roles.

3. Train Manager Paddington. IMHO i would not go for this role unless you are aiming to become a driver (you would have your foot in the door). Speaking to many Train Manager's for this company they think there is no future for them when the new trains enter service and that is not just a location specific thing.

But at the end of the day it is a decision only you can make, it would appear that you enjoy transport so that is a good start. Best of luck for your future.

313103 said:

If i was starting my career now, the choice i would make would be made in this order:

1. Go Ahead Bus Driver. It covers 5 of the main points you mentioned, most importantly job security. The bad point would be the working conditions, driving a bus in London is stressful and as you have already gathered compared to railway work is poorly paid.

2. CSA TFL. Many changes have taken place on the underground, especially to staffing levels, however if you want to be a driver on the tube that has better job security then any of the other roles.

3. Train Manager Paddington. IMHO i would not go for this role unless you are aiming to become a driver (you would have your foot in the door). Speaking to many Train Manager's for this company they think there is no future for them when the new trains enter service and that is not just a location specific thing.

But at the end of the day it is a decision only you can make, it would appear that you enjoy transport so that is a good start. Best of luck for your future.

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as far as i'm aware TMs will remain safety crit and the new trains will be driver open guard close, so may be more secure than you think short term, and as said above would be a great foot in the door for driving positions

I would focus on the job you have been offered first and foremost and make sure you are ready and accepting of it should the other two fall through. I was a bus driver before becoming a train driver and it's a well trodden path, whilst their are no direct "promotion" into the grade, the busses give you many example that help smash train driver interviews.

Having said that, if you do get offered the gwr Tom job then that is more than likely the one I would choose in your shoes as the training you will receive and the experiences you will gain will help massively towards applying for a driver job, plus you get opportunity to actually liase with potential future managers

Really appreciate the responses. All fairly rational which is refreshing.

The reality is I might not have these options open to me once I undertake the said recruitment activity and this problem wouldn't exist . I am 100% committed to any of the roles above. While i have a start date for the bus driver role, I was keen to see how one would prioritise their options should they all be successful. Thanks for the kind words and responses.

I will keep this thread updated with relevant progress and challenges before I start.

I'm not aware that Go-Ahead treat transfer between their bus and rail operations as an 'internal transfer' - obviously there are transferrable skills, and it's possible that a good reference from somewhere within the group might be a tie-breaker, but don't think it would be seen as a transfer.

Assuming you're talking Go-Ahead London, things are not as great as they could be - their recent performance in tendering for routes has been variable, with more bad news than good in recent months. A few big routes (for example the 68 group from Camberwell) are on their way out in the next year or so.

And TFL are cutting back on buses - so the number of buses and therefore jobs is shrinking. Don't think it's likely to get to the point of redundancies, but it's enough to shrink opportunities. And they seem to be leaning heavily on costs at the moment which in turn means bus operators will be under pressure to reduce costs.

The London route tendering system means if you (as a driver) regularly work on a route that goes to another operator, you are eligible to transfer on 'TUPE' rules to the new operator, keeping your current pay / terms and conditions. The way the driver shortage has been in recent years, most operators have offered drivers the chance to stay on and move to another route - I can see the point coming where the option won't be there, it will be 'off you go'. And this can be a bit of a pain if the new depot is some distance from the old one and doesn't have a proper canteen or staff parking or a handy night bus.

If you've not already got a PCV licence, bear in mind you'll almost certainly be contractually bound to stay for X amount of time (don't know the specifics with GA London but 2 years is fairly common) after passing - if you quit (or get sacked) within that time you're liable to pay something towards your training. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a 4 figure sum now. Obviously this wouldn't happen if you got offered a supervisory sort of job with the same (bus) company, but not sure how they would see it if you went to a completely different job within the same group.

If you've got ambitions beyond driving, Go-Ahead are probably one of the better options - some of the groups have one heck of a divide between the graduate trainee manager entry route into management and driver entry route into first line supervision but not much beyond.

I don't know enough specifics about GWR or the Underground to offer informed comment - from my perspective, the Underground does not seem to be a happy ship at the moment, though.

AlterEgo said:

You seem pretty switched on.

Firstly, the bus operations and train operations of Go-Ahead are separate and I would be surprised if there was an option to "transfer" - I am sure you would need to apply for a train driving role as an external candidate the same as anyone else.

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Be careful with this one because First Great Western would not entertain applications from First Western National at Plymouth, I know of several that applied but were turned down flat, funnily enough when one moved over to Plymouth Citybus he was accepted and actually taken on, coincidence or what!

Obviously you wont see that policy written down anywhere and the chances of proving it even exists at all are remote but it is worth bearing in mind.

On the other hand the path from bus driver to train driver is a well worn one so a few years experience as a bus driver would be very useful as long as they have different owning groups.

GWR Train Manager is a good job and now the DOO/DCO threat have been (at least) deferred means the job has quite a secure future for at least 27 years, and is also a well worn route to driver and would be my choice because you are on the railway and would have first dibs at the internal vacancy list, of course a lot of people are happy to remain as Train Manager with no intention of going driving.

You pays your money and takes your choice.

Go for the TFL CSA role. Probably the quickest and most likely of all the jobs you've posted that could lead to a drivers job. Anyone within TFL who has completed training and passed probation for 6 months can then apply for any internal vacancy. The drivers role has popped up a few times in the last year, both full and part time.

Worst case, you're not successful as a driver along the line, but you're still then working for a secure and well-paying company, with excellent pension, and other benefits. Forgetting trains for a minute you might find yourself doing a completely different role, that you may not have considered at the moment, but will only hear about and be able to apply for once you're in the door at TFL. Good luck either way.

Not an easy decision but for now just go with the flow and see how each one turns out. All the best.

Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk

Sound advice and opinions. Thanks. Asked a few questions with some of the gwr staff today and all have fairly good things to say about the culture and operations of the business. As mentioned in earlier posts...time will dictate next steps. Thanks all.

A friend of mine was a Bus Driver for many years. He loved it at first, then the reality set in. He would never recommend it as a career. Granted that's his opinion but also one that many share. Maybe speak to people in each of those roles and see which way the wind blows and how they see the jobs.

I would also suggest you look at the practical options for each role too. How far away is will you need to travel each day, remuneration and affordability, working hours, time off, leave arrangements, quality of life etc.

Going to work at stupid'o'clock isn't right for everyone and can dramatically affect your home and personal life. Do you think shift work is right for you ?

You haven't mentioned money and that was refreshing to see but have you considered each financial element ? The cost to go to work can take a chunk out of wages and communing is notorious. Certainly consider location, location, location.

Family, friends ? Have you spoke with them or do you have a free choice ? I'm not sure that looking back that I would have chosen to be a Train Driver. The impact on my family has been considerable.

Train Driver. Hmmmmm. I find it weird on this forum and speaking to other people about my job. If this is something you wish then why not go directly for it ? I'n my previous life I was on a career path. If that path was successful and enjoyable then I would have never changed careers. You may find that whichever path you choose, takes you elsewhere. You may also find that because your intention is to become a Train Driver, then your career focus suffers too. I would consider future options and how my long term choices would be affected.

ComUtoR said:

Train Driver. Hmmmmm. I find it weird on this forum and speaking to other people about my job. If this is something you wish then why not go directly for it ? I'n my previous life I was on a career path. If that path was successful and enjoyable then I would have never changed careers. You may find that whichever path you choose, takes you elsewhere. You may also find that because your intention is to become a Train Driver, then your career focus suffers too. I would consider future options and how my long term choices would be affected.

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Some good advice here, and I share this viewpoint. There seems to be a misplaced perception that it's somehow easier or more desirable to "work up" to being a driver through other jobs. That is certainly no longer the case, even if it was once the only route to the footplate. The world has moved on.

In terms of the options the OP is currently looking at I would say go with the TM role as a. It will give excellent safety critical experience for the driver interview and b. access to internal driver vacancies.

Beyond that, if someone wants to be a driver and asks for my advice, I tell them to focus their efforts on applying for trainee driver vacancies leading to qualified driver status within a year of walking through the door, rather than potentially wasting years doing something you don't really want to do. Life is too short!

Funnily enough I've worked for Go-Ahead as a bus driver, Worked for TFL as an RPI and now a trainee driver.

Dependent on what garage you go to, Bus driving can be very repetitive on crap pay with abusive passengers and awful managers. But certain garages can be a right laugh with your colleagues.

TFL used to be a great company to work for, but with their current issue of becoming "Self Sufficient" with no government funding in the next 4-5 years worries me on job security over the whole organisation. I can't really talk for CSA's but you'll be standing on a gateline assisting customers.

I don't work for GWR, but most guards I speak to enjoy their jobs. They all have gripes and complaints but that's expected anywhere.

If it were me with the choice of all 3, I'd go for a career on the railways. I wish I would of done it 10 years ago!

ComUtoR said:

I would also suggest you look at the practical options for each role too. How far away is will you need to travel each day, remuneration and affordability, working hours, time off, leave arrangements, quality of life etc.

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Go-ahead depot I'm assigned to is about 12 minutes drive from where I live. However I'm unable to see anywhere what routes they typically run. From the searching I've done it doesn't seem to be a lot. I wanted to check the routes their contracted to run, how far into contract are they also if there were any new routes in the area go-ahead may bid for. So this makes me a little anxious. Travel to Paddington for GWR is about 45 minutes and there will be cost to travel to and from work but they pay is higher and hours are lower. I also noticed in the contract sick days are not paid out and if it's longer then a couple days then evidence should be provided...if it is paid out it is very ambiguous (GO-AHEAD)

ComUtoR said:

Going to work at stupid'o'clock isn't right for everyone and can dramatically affect your home and personal life. Do you think shift work is right for you ?

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currently I have the freedom to work shift work and I have a fairly unsettled body clock and it will work in my favour. However time will tell.

ComUtoR said:

You haven't mentioned money and that was refreshing to see but have you considered each financial element ? The cost to go to work can take a chunk out of wages and communing is notorious. Certainly consider location, location, location.


Family, friends ? Have you spoke with them or do you have a free choice ? I'm not sure that looking back that I would have chosen to be a Train Driver. The impact on my family has been considerable.

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Finances are important but once I have enough to support family, good quality of life and put money aside for investment and rainy day funds with a good quality of life that bodes well for me. With that being said a great working environment and job that is enjoyable are attributes that I can't ignore. I enjoy driving and operating things and various contraptions love being of service to the public. All options will be reasonably close and it will be swings and roundabouts in regards to travel costs vs locations. Train manager role will pay more based on average hours across all roles and excludes OT.

Assuming all options are available to me I will be in a pickle for choices and I'm deeply thankful for every single response.

Sirgerbil said:

Funnily enough I've worked for Go-Ahead as a bus driver, Worked for TFL as an RPI and now a trainee driver.

Dependent on what garage you go to, Bus driving can be very repetitive on crap pay with abusive passengers and awful managers. But certain garages can be a right laugh with your colleagues.

TFL used to be a great company to work for, but with their current issue of becoming "Self Sufficient" with no government funding in the next 4-5 years worries me on job security over the whole organisation. I can't really talk for CSA's but you'll be standing on a gateline assisting customers.

I don't work for GWR, but most guards I speak to enjoy their jobs. They all have gripes and complaints but that's expected anywhere.

If it were me with the choice of all 3, I'd go for a career on the railways. I wish I would of done it 10 years ago!

Click to expand...

Refreshing read, in that case I'll accept your offer and I can tick someone from the bus industry off my list All jokes aside can I get you on a pm? I can share more info on the depot and get your thoughts for the bus element?

Bromley boy said:

Some good advice here, and I share this viewpoint. There seems to be a misplaced perception that it's somehow easier or more desirable to "work up" to being a driver through other jobs. That is certainly no longer the case, even if it was once the only route to the footplate. The world has moved on.

In terms of the options the OP is currently looking at I would say go with the TM role as a. It will give excellent safety critical experience for the driver interview and b. access to internal driver vacancies.

Beyond that, if someone wants to be a driver and asks for my advice, I tell them to focus their efforts on applying for trainee driver vacancies leading to qualified driver status within a year of walking through the door, rather than potentially wasting years doing something you don't really want to do. Life is too short!

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The perceived view is that train manager role for GWR is more desirable based on what I'm looking for what provides me with much comfort. I Got through to team activities stage with Gwr and hopefully interview stage so it may become a viable option.

I did reply to a few other messages but it is being reviewed by a Mod.

Little update on this one...

I managed to bag conditional offers on all three jobs. I never usually feel proud of my self but in this instance I really do. Given the rigerous recruitment processes this industry has, so many stages of assessing your aptitude, attributes, characteristics and just general suitability for the roles...it really is an eye opener to how much work goes in at both ends. The progress of my applications was very much done off the back of the experience and support of this forum... so thank you.

TFL do not have dates for training so I may sit in the pool for now. A friend of mine also got accepted last week... his dates for training start from feb 2018... Which for me is too far to even entertain. They also didn't explain the role difference between csa1 & 2. Which I have seen on the forum but even at the interview when I asked questions, they wasn't really in the know...

GWR have been fairly quick in progressing the medical and background checks but now awaiting start dates.

Both TFL and GWR application process begun mid July. Go-Ahead also July but got result that day with all the assessments, medical, interview and driving with an instructor all on the same day.

313103 said:

3. Train Manager Paddington. IMHO i would not go for this role unless you are aiming to become a driver (you would have your foot in the door). Speaking to many Train Manager's for this company they think there is no future for them when the new trains enter service and that is not just a location specific thing.

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Complete and utter fabrication and wibble.

tiptoptaff said:

Complete and utter fabrication and wibble.

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They might, just might, lose control of the doors. But I just can’t see single staffed IC trains happening. The issue is totally different from commuter trains.

Personally I’d be a mainline guard over either of the other options. I wouldn’t mind being a rural bus driver but bus driving in the city would be way too stressful to me.

Bletchleyite said:

They might, just might, lose control of the doors. But I just can’t see single staffed IC trains happening. The issue is totally different from commuter trains.

Personally I’d be a mainline guard over either of the other options. I wouldn’t mind being a rural bus driver but bus driving in the city would be way too stressful to me.

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There has been no suggestion of that - not sure what the MOW is currently but I have not heard a thing along the lines of full DCO.

tiptoptaff said:

Complete and utter fabrication and wibble.

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Fabrication suggests i have invented something that is not true or will be true.
Perhaps you don't speak to many of your colleagues, i do and they say these new trains water down there existing role. Judging by the GWR briefing document (and it is the only factual thing i have) the Guard doesn't even give the signal to start to the driver, the driver just waits for interlock and then he decides to move once he gets it, part of the watering down.

tiptoptaff said:

There has been no suggestion of that - not sure what the MOW is currently but I have not heard a thing along the lines of full DCO.

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Because there has been no suggestion of that in the public domain, you dont think it hasn't been discussed at board level now do you?

You seem to have an axe to grind over the new units, I can't understand it as apart from waving a batton once or twice an hour they don't concern you at all. There are no plans to make them full DCO. Stop with your wibble.

tiptoptaff said:

You seem to have an axe to grind over the new units, I can't understand it as apart from waving a batton once or twice an hour they don't concern you at all. There are no plans to make them full DCO. Stop with your wibble.

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Now why would i have a axe to grind when as you say and i quote " waving a batton once or twice an hour they don't concern you at all" unquote?
I have to ask now that you have mentioned it, how long will that last?

Any evidence that they are no plans to make them full DOO?
I can only base evidence on what is fact. London Overground told me that there are no plans to go DOO within the then current franchise agreement in March of 2013, in July 2013 they announced DOO will come in, by November 2013 only a handful were left until July 2014 when they were all gone.
Even you can see how quickly things move in the industry from saying NO to complete DOO in 16 months.