Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

Highlandspring · 20 Oct 2017

To be more precise, on the East Coast Main Line there is nothing above 100mph north (or perhaps that should be west) of Wallyford. I didn't realise I was pitching my answer to Pedants-R-Us so, for the avoidance of doubt, there are no sections of linespeed greater than 100mph in Scotland other than on the West Coast Main Line between Motherwell (WCM2 89m 25ch) and the Route Boundary north of Gretna Jn, and on the East Coast Main Line between Wallyford (ECM8 6m 27ch) and the Route Boundary at Marshall Meadows. None of the various routes connecting the ECML in the east and the WCML in the west have linespeeds greater than 100mph, nor any of the sections north of an imaginary line drawn roughly between Edinburgh and Motherwell. Does this make things any more clear?

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route101 · 20 Oct 2017

When on a Pendo the linespeed noticibly increases south of Carstairs !

dcsprior · 20 Oct 2017

Highlandspring said:
To be more precise, on the East Coast Main Line there is nothing above 100mph north (or perhaps that should be west) of Wallyford. I didn't realise I was pitching my answer to Pedants-R-Us so, for the avoidance of doubt, there are no sections of linespeed greater than 100mph in Scotland other than on the West Coast Main Line between Motherwell (WCM2 89m 25ch) and the Route Boundary north of Gretna Jn, and on the East Coast Main Line between Wallyford (ECM8 6m 27ch) and the Route Boundary at Marshall Meadows. None of the various routes connecting the ECML in the east and the WCML in the west have linespeeds greater than 100mph, nor any of the sections north of an imaginary line drawn roughly between Edinburgh and Motherwell. Does this make things any more clear?

Sorry I've annoyed you. I took your post as meaning further north geographically, rather than further north up the same line - I thought you'd been caught out making the same wrong assumption that I've made in the past that the Scotland-England border is a lot closer to a straight east-west line than it is in reality.

Ginaro · 20 Oct 2017

route101 said:
When on a Pendo the linespeed noticibly increases south of Carstairs !

Yes I noticed that recently when travelling from Edinburgh on the WCML for the first time in a while - forgot how slow Carstairs is. Anyone know if there are plans to change the junction to get line speed improvements?

najaB · 20 Oct 2017

Ginaro said:
Anyone know if there are plans to change the junction to get line speed improvements?

There is talk every now and again of reinstating the old alignment but I doubt anything will happen before high speed rail reaches Scotland.

snowball · 20 Oct 2017

Ginaro said:
Yes I noticed that recently when travelling from Edinburgh on the WCML for the first time in a while - forgot how slow Carstairs is. Anyone know if there are plans to change the junction to get line speed improvements?

There have been numerous mentions of a propsed upgrade at Carstairs over the last couple of years but no clarity on what exactly is proposed.
Edit: time overlap with najab. I'm referring to hints of an officially proposed project of unknown content, not a restoration of the old direct alignment between the south and the Edinburgh direction.

Ginaro · 20 Oct 2017

Didn't realise there was an old alignment, I probably should've looked first as it's visible on aerial imagery: https://binged.it/2yFLjLt

Surely that's the most obvious alignment? Doesn't look too difficult to do, though I suppose the question is whether it's worth the money just to speed up services to Edinburgh.

Clansman · 20 Oct 2017

It would still be a little underwhelming to reinstate the old alignment given the land around Carstairs Junction allows you to potentially construct an entirely new one which would allow for far greater speeds than what the current or reinstated alignments would permit.

takno · 21 Oct 2017

Clansman said:
It would still be a little underwhelming to reinstate the old alignment given the land around Carstairs Junction allows you to potentially construct an entirely new one which would allow for far greater speeds than what the current or reinstated alignments would permit.

The "old" alignment appears to completely eliminate both the extremely tight curve at Carstairs and the more gradual bend back, leaving a straight route which could probably be run at 125mph. That modification alone would probably save 5-6 minutes as well as making timetabling through the junction a little more robust. I'm not sure there is a diversion of less than about 20 miles which would be better. Beyond that you would probably be better off adding in signal blocks Carstairs-Holytown Jn-Slateford Jn, since the block lengths there are terrible.

As far as I understand it though it's questionable whether any trains ever really ran on it as a through route, and while it only runs through some extremely grubby farmland, it is very much on the flood plane for the Clyde, meaning that it's more complex than a simple embankment. I've also heard claims that the owner of the land is difficult, but I have no idea if they were accurate or not.

marks87 · 21 Oct 2017

Is it the case that the old alignment was abandoned for the sake of the Dolphinton branch (also still visible on satellite views of Carstairs Jn.), or was there more to it than that?

It seems unfathomable that a small branch line would be considered important enough to change such a junction so drastically.

takno · 21 Oct 2017

marks87 said:
Is it the case that the old alignment was abandoned for the sake of the Dolphinton branch (also still visible on satellite views of Carstairs Jn.), or was there more to it than that?

It seems unfathomable that a small branch line would be considered important enough to change such a junction so drastically.

I've read (although I can't offhand find the links) that it was a combination of the Dolphinton branch, the Carlisle-Edinburgh route having no scheduled services anyway, and drainage on the original alignment. The vagaries of freight from long-dead industries and planning issues led to plenty of odd historical decisions

snowball · 21 Oct 2017

Carstairs junction remodelling is mentioned on pages 172, 186 and 187 of the Enhancements Delivery plan, but none of these references gives any detail.

https://16cbgt3sbwr8204sf92da3xxc5m...ploads/2017/10/Enhancements-Delivery-Plan.pdf

John07 · 21 Oct 2017

dcsprior said:
But what was originally said was:

Which means that anywhere with a linespeed over 100mph isn't north of either Edinburgh or Carstairs, the Scottish bit of the ECML is north of Carstairs

And some of the ECML from Berwick to Waverley is actually north of Edinburgh if we are being picky!

deltic08 · 21 Oct 2017

clc said:
The STPR sets out realistic potential improvements for Aberdeen to Glasgow and Edinburgh:-

Recasting of the passenger timetable on the Aberdeen – Dundee – Edinburgh / Glasgow corridors to provide express and stopping services:
• Providing one express train per hour to Glasgow (21⁄4 hour journey time);
• Providing one express train per hour to Edinburgh (2 hour journey time); and
• No stops at intermediate settlements (except Dundee) for express services.
(There would also be time savings for Fife-Edinburgh services via Kirkcaldy.)

Phase 1 would include line speed improvements, additional loops to allow passing of freight trains and upgraded signalling along the entire length of the line to reduce headway times.
Phase 2 would involve the removal of the single track at Usan, including a new bridge over Montrose Basin.

Freight improvements:
• Provision of bi-directional signalling to reduce the impact of engineering works (permitting the route to remain open for freight throughout the day and week);
• Increased length of freight loops (allowing longer freight trains); and
• Removal of speed limits that are below 75mph for freight trains.

Cost:
Phase 1: £100m - £250m,
Phase 2: £100m - £250m
Freight improvements £50m - £100m

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/23621/j10194a-a2d18.pdf

I wonder what more could be done to get Glasgow-Aberdeen down to the 2 hour mark if there was another few hundred million to spend (without bypassing Dundee)?

Can you not be more precise than £100-£250m? That is a wide margin of error. Makes me think you don't know how much these Phases will cost.
How will you raise Perth, Dundee and Arbroath to 75mph? Now who is being realistic?
If £600m has to be spent on these improvements to upgrade the coastal route instead of building via Strathmore then this money will not be available to spend anyway on other projects mentioned by Altnabreac et al instead. For only " another few hundred million to spend", Stanley Junction to a point south of Laurencekirk could be built to 125mph alignment that will give an Aberdeen-Glasgow sub 2 hour journey time with stops at Perth and Stirling.
Nostalgia has nothing to do with it. It is the only way to reduce overall journey time between the Central belt and Aberdeen, without trundling around the coast, as it would be straighter, with no speed restriction less than 125mph and shorter mileage. What is this obsession with every train having to stop at Dundee? There is absolutely no reason to route freight via Dundee if a shorter route was available.

deltic08 · 21 Oct 2017

Highlandspring said:
To be more precise, on the East Coast Main Line there is nothing above 100mph north (or perhaps that should be west) of Wallyford. I didn't realise I was pitching my answer to Pedants-R-Us so, for the avoidance of doubt, there are no sections of linespeed greater than 100mph in Scotland other than on the West Coast Main Line between Motherwell (WCM2 89m 25ch) and the Route Boundary north of Gretna Jn, and on the East Coast Main Line between Wallyford (ECM8 6m 27ch) and the Route Boundary at Marshall Meadows. None of the various routes connecting the ECML in the east and the WCML in the west have linespeeds greater than 100mph, nor any of the sections north of an imaginary line drawn roughly between Edinburgh and Motherwell. Does this make things any more clear?

No, because we understood you the first time.

NotATrainspott · 21 Oct 2017

deltic08 said:
Can you not be more precise than £100-£250m? That is a wide margin of error. Makes me think you don't know how much these Phases will cost.
How will you raise Perth, Dundee and Arbroath to 75mph? Now who is being realistic?
If £600m has to be spent on these improvements to upgrade the coastal route instead of building via Strathmore then this money will not be available to spend anyway on other projects mentioned by Altnabreac et al instead. For only " another few hundred million to spend", Stanley Junction to a point south of Laurencekirk could be built to 125mph alignment that will give an Aberdeen-Glasgow sub 2 hour journey time with stops at Perth and Stirling.
Nostalgia has nothing to do with it. It is the only way to reduce overall journey time between the Central belt and Aberdeen, without trundling around the coast, as it would be straighter, with no speed restriction less than 125mph and shorter mileage. What is this obsession with every train having to stop at Dundee? There is absolutely no reason to route freight via Dundee if a shorter route was available.

There is significant demand for Glasgow-Dundee and Dundee-Aberdeen travel. Trains still have to run between these places. However, if you send Glasgow-Aberdeen expresses via Strathmore, you lose a train on both routes. Unless you want to disadvantage Dundee travellers, you have to run more services. But, if those services are essentially duplicates, it won't increase passenger demand by anywhere near enough to make it viable. Remember too that your 125mph alignment through Strathmore would see a grand total of 1 train per hour, since there is no real demand for stopping trains in the region which won't then run to the nearest main city of Dundee. You would spend hundreds of millions of pounds on a scheme which would benefit only a relatively small number of people by a relatively small amount, while then requiring even more subsidy and opportunity cost to fix the problems it causes. For instance, your second fast Dundee-Glasgow service would require another path all the way into Queen Street. That path could be much better used doing pretty much anything else, like adding another E&G express or a new stopping train to take the load off the expresses.

najaB · 21 Oct 2017

deltic08 said:
What is this obsession with every train having to stop at Dundee?

It's the largest population and economic centre on the route and drives at least a third of the demand on the Glasgow-Aberdeen corridor.

deltic08 said:
There is absolutely no reason to route freight via Dundee if a shorter route was available.

If the route was still open, there's no doubt it would be well used. However, as NotATrainspott said, that is a lot of money to spend to provide fewer people with a faster train service.

NotATrainspott · 21 Oct 2017

And, expanding on my point, it isn't clear if there would be any benefit for the people living along that new line. They want to go to Dundee, but this line just takes them to Perth and Aberdeen. Since they'll still drive or take the bus to Dundee, and as numbers heading to the other places are low, it wouldn't be particularly viable to open any intermediate stations. Remember too that if you're justifying reopening the line to cut Glasgow-Aberdeen journey times, you can't then start stopping at the small towns along the line without undoing everything you're trying to do.

As a result, why would people in the area actually want this line to exist? People want railways reopened when they would benefit. A railway line that passes through without stopping is actually worse than no railway at all, since you get all of the costs without really any benefit. The only time communities push for train lines they won't be able to use is if it will have some other benefit for them, like reducing traffic on the roads, but that doesn't apply here.

Railways can't serve every possible transport or community development need. They're pretty good at certain things, but in this case there's just nothing any feasible railway could do to make people's lives better. The processes in place for deciding Scottish transport project priorities and funding are designed so that they're looking for outcomes first, not possible solutions. If you're looking for the outcome of better transport links for Angus, then you'll inevitably come up with the plan to build a northern Dundee orbital route/bypass as being the best option. Something like that would measurably improve people's lives, not only in Dundee and Angus but across Scotland as well as it would be a better trunk route to the North East than the Kingsway. In the same way it's still possible to prioritise public transport over private motoring. The process could decide that it would be best to invest in some new bus lanes on the radial routes out of Dundee and some fancy new buses.

47271 · 21 Oct 2017

NotATrainspott said:
And, expanding on my point, it isn't clear if there would be any benefit for the people living along that new line. They want to go to Dundee, but this line just takes them to Perth and Aberdeen. Since they'll still drive or take the bus to Dundee, and as numbers heading to the other places are low, it wouldn't be particularly viable to open any intermediate stations. Remember too that if you're justifying reopening the line to cut Glasgow-Aberdeen journey times, you can't then start stopping at the small towns along the line without undoing everything you're trying to do.

As a result, why would people in the area actually want this line to exist? People want railways reopened when they would benefit. A railway line that passes through without stopping is actually worse than no railway at all, since you get all of the costs without really any benefit. The only time communities push for train lines they won't be able to use is if it will have some other benefit for them, like reducing traffic on the roads, but that doesn't apply here.

Railways can't serve every possible transport or community development need. They're pretty good at certain things, but in this case there's just nothing any feasible railway could do to make people's lives better. The processes in place for deciding Scottish transport project priorities and funding are designed so that they're looking for outcomes first, not possible solutions. If you're looking for the outcome of better transport links for Angus, then you'll inevitably come up with the plan to build a northern Dundee orbital route/bypass as being the best option. Something like that would measurably improve people's lives, not only in Dundee and Angus but across Scotland as well as it would be a better trunk route to the North East than the Kingsway. In the same way it's still possible to prioritise public transport over private motoring. The process could decide that it would be best to invest in some new bus lanes on the radial routes out of Dundee and some fancy new buses.

Oh hell, in all the time we've been talking about Strathmore on and off I hadn't realised that it was going to have the exclusive purpose of getting trains from Perth to Aberdeen at speed! So no stations at Coupar Angus and Forfar for example, that's even worse?

Would our time not be better spent asking Deltic08 what their plans are for Glenfarg, at least that's a route we're all broadly in favour of? Restoration of the old alignment or a brand new high speed route, Bridge of Earn-St Madoes Tay crossing or not? Presumably not if half the traffic's going to have to go via Stanley and Strathmore?!

najaB · 21 Oct 2017

47271 said:
Oh hell, in all the time we've been talking about Strathmore on and off I hadn't realised that it was going to have the exclusive purpose of getting trains from Perth to Aberdeen at speed! So no stations at Coupar Angus and Forfar for example, that's even worse?

Stations at Coupar Angus (pop. 2,300) and Forfar (pop. 14,100) aren't likely to generate anywhere near the traffic lost from a station at Dundee (pop. 145,000) in any case.

clc · 21 Oct 2017

deltic08 said:
Can you not be more precise than £100-£250m? That is a wide margin of error. Makes me think you don't know how much these Phases will cost.
How will you raise Perth, Dundee and Arbroath to 75mph? Now who is being realistic?
.

You’d have to ask Transport Scotland as it was their report I was quoting.

najaB · 21 Oct 2017

clc said:
You’d have to ask Transport Scotland as it was their report I was quoting.

In addition, I can't see anything that says that Dundee, Perth or Arbroath would be 75mph through the station. The section of your quote to which deltic08 is apparently objecting doesn't say that *all* limits will be increased.

MidnightFlyer · 21 Oct 2017

marks87 said:
Is it the case that the old alignment was abandoned for the sake of the Dolphinton branch (also still visible on satellite views of Carstairs Jn.), or was there more to it than that?

It seems unfathomable that a small branch line would be considered important enough to change such a junction so drastically.

This has come up on here way, way back when. I seem to recall the conclusion reached was that the Dolphinton branch was the death knell, but it was used sparingly before even then. I will have a dig.

MidnightFlyer · 21 Oct 2017

Here we go - sounds like it was mothballed long before the 20th Century!

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/borders-railway-now-open.59833/page-7#post-1370842

Ginaro · 21 Oct 2017

Did a bit of googling and found more about the area and former lines: http://www.scottish-places.info/features/featurefirst17515.html and http://www.crassoc.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=360

The embankment is still visible: https://goo.gl/maps/CT7AQFAWn6H2 and http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3957664 - but as mentioned there could be flooding issues.

Problem is, when Network Rail mentions junction remodelling in their enhancement plan, there's only two directions that can really be improved (Glasgow to England already being 90 mph). For Edinburgh to Glasgow trains there could be changes to the northern curve in the triangle. But for Edinburgh to England trains - if you don't use the old alignment, you surely need a new shallower curve somewhere south of the current line and across Carnwath Road?

marks87 · 22 Oct 2017

That's a good point about the northern curve; it seems to be forgotten whenever Carstairs realignment comes up, with the focus on its southern brother. It has a horrible adverse camber, which can be seen on plenty of videos shot from the station but this is one of the best I've seen that illustrates it:

route101 · 22 Oct 2017

Is the northern curve ever used ? Looks overgrown last time i seen it .

najaB · 22 Oct 2017

route101 said:
Is the northern curve ever used ? Looks overgrown last time i seen it .

By 'northern curve' do you mean the line that would be used by all trains between Glasgow and Edinburgh?

route:oxford · 22 Oct 2017

MidnightFlyer said:
Here we go - sounds like it was mothballed long before the 20th Century!

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/borders-railway-now-open.59833/page-7#post-1370842

There's a couple of scans of maps from the NLS that I posted on page 8 of that thread.

This comes round again and again.

In reality, there should well engineered 100/125mph capable flying junction there to allow Northbound services to cross over to the Edinburgh route without slowing down and without blocking Southbound services as an 11 car Pendolino or freight train crosses at 15mph.

Of course, this would probably mean that the service would then sit and wait for an extra 2-3 minutes by the derelict buildings outside Haymarket.

clc · 22 Oct 2017

So how much will the Scottish Govt actually have to spend on enhancement projects in 2019-2024? According to the figures quoted here it wishes to spend £1.9 billion on renewals and £2.3 billion on enhancements:

http://www.thenational.scot/news/15...otland_s_railways_a_massive__real_terms_cut_/

Assuming the Treasury doesn’t increase its offer the SG will have to cut £600 million of expenditure from its plans. I imagine the renewals budget will be protected as the ORR has said this is the amount required. So it looks like there will be £1.7 billion to spend on enhancements.

Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

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