Is passenger comfort on trains getting increasingly worse?

PaxmanValenta · 21 Oct 2017

With the class 800s little priority has been put into passenger comfort. These trains are just as bad as the 220/221 Voyagers, that people have complained about for over 15 years. In standard class few seats line up with windows some seats have no view at all. Seats are hard, there is engine vibration in diesel mode, few tables are provided and the interior is very cold and spartan looking.

Many years ago UK trains were far more comfortable, ok they didn't have air con, but the seats were well padded and deep had decorative patterns and they always were next to a window and had a table. There was even the choice of travelling in a compartment. MK2 coaches offered smother ride quality and more comfy seats and later aircon. MK3 offered excellent smooth ride quality, soundproofing, spacious comfort and relaxing intercity 70 seats in standard class. Even better in MK4! Some trains even had games boards printed on table tops to entertain families with children.

However in the late 1990s after privistisation, comfort was no longer important when the Voyagers and pendolinos were developed.
Having a window view was no longer considered important. Since trains were invented Kids and many adults loved looking out of train windows from their seat. The view from a train window is something unique not the same as the monotonous view from a car or bus on the motorway! But looking from a train window is sadly something many passengers are now denied

Gone too is the excellent smooth ride quality of MK3 and MK4 rolling stock, well evolved from MK 1 with advanced bogies. The Voyagers and Hitachis vibrate and are noisy with their underfloor engines. So much for progress! Was everything BREL did in engineering smooth bogies and soundproofing for nothing?

MK3 might have had brake friction smells but Voyagers have sewage tank smells, so might the 800s! No prizes for guessing what's the worst smell.

My idea for class 800s, Voyagers etc.
Why don't TOCs just go the whole hog and not put any windows in standard class carriages just have solid metal sides. It would save them money by not having the expense of windows. After all, who the hell needs a window view? and kids should be seen and not heard! So they don't need to look at the sheep in the fields after all, or play silly games like eye spy!

Try cramming in even more seats with 3+2 seating like the pacers have. It would mean having fewer coaches and save TOCs yet more money.

Have just a single colour scheme in standard class such as a dull light grey throughout, without carpets. Cheaper to clean and no expense on interior design.

Even better waterproof vinyl seat padding or no padding at all, it would make cleaning easier and all that's needed is to hose out the carriage and any rubbish at night time, thus saving on employing so many cleaning staff, if still wet in morning get passengers to dry the seats with their own tissue paper.

Ssshh don't tell the TOCs this they'll probably copy and implement all my ideas lol

Seriously are trains increasingly less comfortable than they used to be?

RailUK Forums

Andyh82 · 21 Oct 2017

Seats with no window view just shouldn't be an option that is even allowed to be considered.

SaveECRewards · 21 Oct 2017

I’ve not been on an 800 yet but I’ve heard others say they’re comfortable so I will wait to judge.

On a mk 3 I’d rather sit on one of the GNER Mallard seats in standard class (now refurbed by VTEC) than one of the original seats (which we still have on the EMT sets VTEC borrow).

I’m generally happy with the Mallard 1st class, but I did slightly prefer the original mk 4 1st class as it had great head support ideal for a morning snooze.

So in general I’d not say that modern seating needs to be bad. Some is better, some is worse

Failed Unit · 21 Oct 2017

It doesn’t need to be this way. The “chapman” seats in my opinion were an improvement on what they replaced. I don’t mind the grammars (on 158s and FGw hst).

The 387s are a good train with a poor cheap seat.

6Gman · 21 Oct 2017

PaxmanValenta said:
With the class 800s little priority has been put into passenger comfort. These trains are just as bad as the 220/221 Voyagers. In standard class few seats line up with windows some seats have no view at all. Seats are hard, there is engine vibration in diesel mode, few tables are provided and the interior is very cold and spartan looking.

Many years ago UK trains were far more comfortable, ok they didn't have air con, but the seats were well padded and deep had decorative patterns and they always were next to a window and had a table. There was even the choice of travelling in a compartment. MK2 coaches offered smother ride quality and more comfy seats and later aircon. MK3 offered excellent smooth ride quality spacious comfort and relaxing intercity 70 seats in standard class. Some trains even had games boards printed on table tops to entertain families with children.

MK3 might have had brake friction smells but Voyagers have sewage tank smells, so might the 800s! No prizes for guessing what's the worst smell.

Seriously are trains increasingly less comfortable than they used to be?

Would the general passenger be willing to pay extra for window seats, more tables and compartments?

And if Mk IIIs had been built with CETs wouldn't the same issues have arisen?

(Incidentally, compartment stock didn't have tables*.)

* It was possible to install a table. Most carriages carried a single table which had to be installed; not the easiest task and it made access difficult.

47802 · 21 Oct 2017

PaxmanValenta said:
With the class 800s little priority has been put into passenger comfort. These trains are just as bad as the 220/221 Voyagers. In standard class few seats line up with windows some seats have no view at all. Seats are hard, there is engine vibration in diesel mode, few tables are provided and the interior is very cold and spartan looking.

Many years ago UK trains were far more comfortable, ok they didn't have air con, but the seats were well padded and deep had decorative patterns and they always were next to a window and had a table. There was even the choice of travelling in a compartment. MK2 coaches offered smother ride quality and more comfy seats and later aircon. MK3 offered excellent smooth ride quality spacious comfort and relaxing intercity 70 seats in standard class. Some trains even had games boards printed on table tops to entertain families with children.

However in the late 1990s after privistisation, comfort was no longer important when the Voyagers and pendolinos were developed.
Having a window view was no longer considered important. Since trains were invented Kids and many adults loved looking out of train windows from their seat. The view from a train window is something unique not the same as the monotonous view from a car or bus on the motorway! But looking from a train window is sadly something many passengers are now denied

Gone too is the excellent smooth ride quality of MK3 and MK4 rolling stock, well evolved from MK 1 with advanced bogies. The Voyagers and Hitachis vibrate and are noisy with their underfloor engines. So much for progress! Was everything BREL did in engineering smooth bodies for nothing?

MK3 might have had brake friction smells but Voyagers have sewage tank smells, so might the 800s! No prizes for guessing what's the worst smell.

My idea for class 800s, Voyagers etc.
Why don't TOCs just go the whole hog and not put any windows in standard class carriages just have solid metal sides. It would save them money by not having the expense of windows. After all, who the hell needs a window view? and kids should be seen and not heard! So they don't need to look at the sheep in the fields after all, or play silly games like eye spy!

Try cramming in even more seats with 3+2 seating like the pacers have. It would mean having fewer coaches and save TOCs yet more money.

Have just a single colour scheme in standard class such as a dull light grey throughout, without carpets. Cheaper to clean and no expense on interior design.

Even better waterproof vinyl seat padding or no padding at all, it would make cleaning easier and all that's needed is to hose out the carriage and any rubbish at night time, thus saving on employing so many cleaning staff, if still wet in morning get passengers to dry the seats with their own tissue paper.

Ssshh don't tell the TOCs this they'll probably copy and implement all my ideas lol

Seriously are trains increasingly less comfortable than they used to be?

Looks like another 800 rant, the few seats without a window is a bit disappointing on the 800 and even with sliding doors I would have thought it was not beyond the bounds of possibility to stick a window in the door pockets, but beyond that the rest of the seats to window don't look any worse than existing HST layouts to me. I have not been on one yet but from the films I have seen the 800's seem very quiet to me, and point that needs to be repeated is that once GW electrification is completed the majority of passengers will for all or a major part of their journey be on electric and that's even more so on the East Coast route, but hey lets not let that fact get in the way of a good whinge.

As for Voyagers yes there not great in a number of respects I will agree with that and tend to avoid travelling on them, although I'm sure they could be improved in some respects although probably not engine noise.

As the railways get busier then yes you could argue the overall comfort is decreasing and has been so for a while and will continue to do so as the railways likely get even busier, but it will be a case of like it or lump it.

tbtc · 21 Oct 2017

PaxmanValenta said:
With the class 800s little priority has been put into passenger comfort. These trains are just as bad as the 220/221 Voyagers. In standard class few seats line up with windows some seats have no view at all. Seats are hard, there is engine vibration in diesel mode, few tables are provided and the interior is very cold and spartan looking

I wonder whether every seat in the TPE Mk5s will be 100% comfortable and line up perfectly with windows? Or will people not mind that because they will be "proper trains"?

800/801s have learnt lessons from Voyagers - but some airline seats are a fact of life on any modern stock and that means some seats won't line up perfectly with windows.

PaxmanValenta said:
Many years ago UK trains were far more comfortable, ok they didn't have air con, but the seats were well padded and deep had decorative patterns and they always were next to a window and had a table. There was even the choice of travelling in a compartment. MK2 coaches offered smother ride quality and more comfy seats and later aircon. MK3 offered excellent smooth ride quality spacious comfort and relaxing intercity 70 seats in standard class. Some trains even had games boards printed on table tops to entertain families with children.

However in the late 1990s after privistisation, comfort was no longer important when the Voyagers and pendolinos were developed.
Having a window view was no longer considered important

In the 1980s, British Rail introduced the shoogly Mk4s, coaches which had a number of seats that didn't line up with windows.

I appreciate it's an inconvenient truth to the argument that everything was great under BR and it's only since these nasty private companies have come along that seats/windows no longer line up but reality isn't as simple. We no longer have a railway quiet enough to just have each seat in bays of four, some airline seating is inevitable on our busy modern railway, but at least we have examples like the 185s where they've tried to fit the window size to the seats.

PaxmanValenta said:
MK3 might have had brake friction smells but Voyagers have sewage tank smells, so might the 800s! No prizes for guessing what's the worst smell

You're now complaining that the 800s *might* smell? Might?

BestWestern · 21 Oct 2017

I think it goes beyond just passenger comfort. What we are surely seeing, with 'ironing board' super skinny seats, removal of proper catering on long distance trains and the slow march of the truly awful 'till roll' ticket stock, is the beginning of the railway austerity age. The train that revolutionised intercity travel and saved the railway is to be replaced by a successor that offers hard seats and tea from a trolley. A sad illustration of where we are.

NR might have tens of millions to throw about, but only because everything it does costs an astronomical amount. At the point of real world delivery, those millions get very little. We're seeing electrification projects crippled and infrastructure reliability in many places is dire and getting no better. Of course we have the government's grand plans for massive nationwide staff culls, and even liveries are going bargain basement, with Thameslink and GA setting new standards of post-privatistion dullness. It seems the bean counters have killed off flair and spirit, and we're now in the age of the 'bare minimum' railway. A shame.

47802 · 21 Oct 2017

BestWestern said:
I think it goes beyond just passenger comfort. What we are surely seeing, with 'ironing board' super skinny seats, removal of proper catering on long distance trains and the slow march of the truly awful 'till roll' ticket stock, is the beginning of the railway austerity age. The train that revolutionised intercity travel and saved the railway is to be replaced by a successor that offers hard seats and tea from a trolley. A sad illustration of where we are.

NR might have tens of millions to throw about, but only because everything it does costs an astronomical amount. At the point of real world delivery, those millions get very little. We're seeing electrification projects crippled and infrastructure reliability in many places is dire and getting no better. Of course we have the government's grand plans for massive nationwide staff culls, and even liveries are going bargain basement, with Thameslink and GA setting new standards of post-privatistion dullness. It seems the bean counters have killed off flair and spirit, and we're now in the age of the 'bare minimum' railway. A shame.

Funny but thought I had seen a full kitchen on an 800 I guess I must have imagined it! ok so there is no buffet car for standard class so what I think the majority of people in standard mainly tend to buy a drink and a snack and isn't the intention to be able to order some hot food anyway, while with TPE and Scotrail HST the intention is to offer better catering than currently provided.

BestWestern · 21 Oct 2017

47802 said:
Funny but thought I had seen a full kitchen on an 800 I guess I must have imagined it! ok so there is no buffet car for standard class so what I think the majority of people in standard mainly tend to buy a drink and a snack and isn't the intention to be able to order some hot food anyway, while with TPE and Scotrail HST the intention is to offer better catering than currently provided.

You saw a kitchen, yes. Tell me, what will it be used for on the 800s? It is there because the design is generic. The journeys utilising the kitchen for restaurant service will be operated by a separate fleet.

Bletchleyite · 21 Oct 2017

With regard to the comment about Mk3s and Mk4s...

Mk3s were the first stock to deliberately NOT align seats with windows and have some against blank panels.

Mk4s continued that trend, are claustrophobic and ride like a cart. And the original Standard seats were cheap, uncomfortable, plasticky rubbish.

Rose-tinted spectacles much?

cf111 · 21 Oct 2017

The Mk4 coaches ride like a sack of bricks compared to modern high-speed stock. I haven't been on a sewage smelling Voyager in a long time, something XC are doing seems to have resolved that particular problem. It's not a popular opinion on here but if 220s/221s were all 2 coaches longer then I honestly don't think anyone could mount a serious argument against them.

co-tr-paul · 21 Oct 2017

If nobody actually WRITESWRITES to complain to the operating company then their opinions and suggestions are not recorded. Re article by an interior design company months back in a certain respected railway magazine. Customers need to speak to be listened to.
Saying that, I was asked by my previous depot manager to TWICE put in written reports suggesting what staff and customers and dare I say even enthusiasts wanted out of the GWR Night Riviera refurbishment. Was I listened too ???
Stock is now designed by outside contractors whose staff often have no clue about the subject.

PaxmanValenta · 21 Oct 2017

BestWestern said:
I think it goes beyond just passenger comfort. What we are surely seeing, with 'ironing board' super skinny seats, removal of proper catering on long distance trains and the slow march of the truly awful 'till roll' ticket stock, is the beginning of the railway austerity age. The train that revolutionised intercity travel and saved the railway is to be replaced by a successor that offers hard seats and tea from a trolley. A sad illustration of where we are.

NR might have tens of millions to throw about, but only because everything it does costs an astronomical amount. At the point of real world delivery, those millions get very little. We're seeing electrification projects crippled and infrastructure reliability in many places is dire and getting no better. Of course we have the government's grand plans for massive nationwide staff culls, and even liveries are going bargain basement, with Thameslink and GA setting new standards of post-privatistion dullness. It seems the bean counters have killed off flair and spirit, and we're now in the age of the 'bare minimum' railway. A shame.

I agree. But just imagine if we still had British Rail and MK1, 2, 3 and carriages had evolved to become MK5, 6 and 7 and the HST had been replaced with a new HST 2, then I think we'd be seeing even better comfort. Perhaps even reclining seats in standard class, triple air suspension, etc.

Having said that I'm no fan of the bombardier 220/221 and 222 family but the class 222 meridians are much more comfortable than the Voyagers and indeed the 800s.

Whilst I'm pro- nationalisation the whole way our railways were privatised was wrong. We could have had a better even cheaper to use railway had TOCs been able to compete on the same routes. Thus, Paddington to Penzance could have been shared with GWR, XC, southwest trains, Virgin etc. And Cross country routes shared with GWR, XC, VTEC and Scot rail etc.
The TOCs woukd just have to agree on times to run their shared services and the competition would have driven down fares and seen a vast improvement in rolling stock as they competed for passengers. That after all was suppose to be the whole idea of privatisation to create choice and competition.
Just like flying, if you like legroom, complimentary refreshments then pay more fly with BA, if you want low fares then fly with Ryanair.
Sadly it seems TOCs are choosing the no-frills Ryanair approach but yet charging premium over priced fares and passengers have no other option.

PaxmanValenta · 22 Oct 2017

cf111 said:
The Mk4 coaches ride like a sack of bricks compared to modern high-speed stock. I haven't been on a sewage smelling Voyager in a long time, something XC are doing seems to have resolved that particular problem. It's not a popular opinion on here but if 220s/221s were all 2 coaches longer then I honestly don't think anyone could mount a serious argument against them.

In all fairness I agree. XC 220/221s could be modified by adding extra carriages and totally revamping the interior. With at least 2 extra carriages most could have the large accessible toilets replaced with smaller toilets and large accessible toilets only in an accessible carriage. This would allow more spacious seating, more tables and more seats lining with windows rather like the far better 222 Meridians. Also a family freindly carriage either full of seats with tables or at least 3/4 full of seats with tables.

I'd also like to see if it was possible to re-engineer the front Delner couplings to make them more universal with other stock and with rescue locomotives.

Of course the easier option would be to replace most of the 220-221s with a mix of Meridians and extra HSTs and only use Voyagers on shorter XC routes like Bristol to York, with Meridians and HSTs doing the longer Plymouth to Edinburgh and Scotland routes. Just a pitty XC had not taken the chance to acquire HSTs from GWR.
Voyagers could be transferred to other more regional TOCs such as Trans Pennine or routes in Scotland.
The biggest limitation of course is the inflexibility of Rolling stock leasing companies like Porterbrook.

DarloRich · 22 Oct 2017

Is passenger comfort on trains getting increasingly worse? - Yes.

cf111 said:
The Mk4 coaches ride like a sack of bricks compared to modern high-speed stock. I haven't been on a sewage smelling Voyager in a long time, something XC are doing seems to have resolved that particular problem. It's not a popular opinion on here but if 220s/221s were all 2 coaches longer then I honestly don't think anyone could mount a serious argument against them.

That might fix one of the issues. Now for the other 47000..................................

highspeed990 · 22 Oct 2017

Thank you, I was about to make this thread! Complaining won't do anything, they simply couldn't give a tinker's toot! Ever since BREL stopped making our trains we've been importing cheap garbage from Japan and Germany that have all sorts of features we are supposed to be impressed by, but they are slowly lowering comfort standards and we let them. If you notice, today's first class is 20 years ago's standard class, and this shifts frequently. Soon we will all be travelling in windowless standing only tin cans, oh but don't worry! It's got air con, advanced customer information displays and better acceleration, and don't worry you can always upgrade o first class for an extra %200 cash and travel in sideways plastic seats in luxury! Rant over.

AFC440 · 22 Oct 2017

I don't know about customer comfort getting worse but general customer service is getting worse.

Unless you board at the starting station, the train will almost certainly be full of litter when you get to your seat. That's true even when traveling in first class.

I never understand why it's so difficult for train staff to have a walk through with a bin bag inviting customers to dispose of their rubbish.

bnm · 22 Oct 2017

BestWestern said:
The journeys utilising the kitchen for restaurant service will be operated by a separate fleet.

Basing that on the current offering? Even then that'd wrong. Restaurant services between Wales and London will be provided from Class 800 kitchens. I've heard strong rumour from GWR catering crew that hot food on more services is to be trialled.

And who knows what the current or future operator of the Greater Western franchise has planned for those kitchens.

bnm · 22 Oct 2017

AFC440 said:
I never understand why it's so difficult for train staff to have a walk through with a bin bag inviting customers to dispose of their rubbish.

Some operators understand it's not difficult because that's precisely what they do. Seen it on CrossCountry, GWR, SWR, ATW, EMT...

Dougal2345 · 22 Oct 2017

Andyh82 said:
Seats with no window view just shouldn't be an option that is even allowed to be considered.

I would say that to the vast majority of passengers nowadays, the window is an inconvenience that lets light shine on the screens of their devices, and they'd rather do without.

Travel on a train with blinds, and the moment the sun starts shining the coach becomes a windowless tube... But when the sun goes in, no-one bothers opening the blinds again.

Besides, if you're travelling in an aisle airline seat, you can't look out of the window too much without disconcerting your neighbouring passenger

Personally the comfort issue that most annoys me is noisy air conditioning, especially in 444s and 450s - a headache-inducing continual roar which then causes the passengers to talk more loudly thus raising the ambient noise level further. I think I'd rather boil in stale air and BO for the sake of a little peace and quiet.

Parallel · 22 Oct 2017

bnm said:
Some operators understand it's not difficult because that's precisely what they do. Seen it on CrossCountry, GWR, SWR, ATW, EMT...

ATW too. I've even seen them have a member of Axis on between Machynlleth and Pwllheli a few times!

Mag_seven · 22 Oct 2017

Re seats that have no window view, lets go back to completely open coaches with no roof or sides - no issues about not being able to see out and no need for any expensive air con either

lordbusiness · 22 Oct 2017

Capacity pure and simple. More people travelling- can't in many cases lengthen the train. People want seats=pack em in.
A compromise has to be made, managing customers expectations is the challenge.
Solution = double decker however the cost would be prohibitive.

To compare train building in BR days to now is wrong. Completely different world. If BR were still around today they'd be turning out exactly there same stuff as Siemens, bombardier etc do today except more expensive and even more shoddy as there would be pressure on budgets from Govt, no private investment. Very few nationalised industries run at a profit.

MonsooN · 22 Oct 2017

I've not been on an 800 yet, so I'll reserve judgement until I've done a reasonable journey on one.

@Dougal2345 raises a valid point about screens though. I often make the same journey over and over (Newcastle to London, Newcastle to Bristol or South Wales) so I've seen the scenery loads of times. These days, when I travel, I often work on my laptop and it can be inconvenient when the sun shines directly on the screen. If I had work to do that was going to take up most of the journey, I probably wouldn't be disappointed with a seat without a window. As long as the seat was comfortable and I had room to use my laptop, I'd be happy.

I just hope that there's enough leg room in the new Class 800 carriages. Being tall, that's usually my biggest source of discomfort.

Dhassell · 22 Oct 2017

MonsooN said:
I've not been on an 800 yet, so I'll reserve judgement until I've done a reasonable journey on one.

@Dougal2345 raises a valid point about screens though. I often make the same journey over and over (Newcastle to London, Newcastle to Bristol or South Wales) so I've seen the scenery loads of times. These days, when I travel, I often work on my laptop and it can be inconvenient when the sun shines directly on the screen. If I had work to do that was going to take up most of the journey, I probably wouldn't be disappointed with a seat without a window. As long as the seat was comfortable and I had room to use my laptop, I'd be happy.

I just hope that there's enough leg room in the new Class 800 carriages. Being tall, that's usually my biggest source of discomfort.

You will be happy to know, even the standard seats have plenty of legroom, wherever you sit!

47802 · 22 Oct 2017

BestWestern said:
You saw a kitchen, yes. Tell me, what will it be used for on the 800s? It is there because the design is generic. The journeys utilising the kitchen for restaurant service will be operated by a separate fleet.

Lets wait and see what GWR actually offer, and as already been commented GWR award is only a short term extension to introduce the new trains, we have seen 2 recent franchise awards where catering will be improved. If HST2 had been built apart from not having underfloor mounted engines do you really think the carriages inside would have been much different I doubt it, as for the underfloor mounted engines well they sound pretty quiet to me, and how much engine noise will you get from London to Cardiff when electrification is completed answer none, London to Swansea last 55 min's of journey, etc and who's to say there wont be further electrification during the lifetime of the train. The worst case scenario is the South West which of course originally these trains were not specified for but from what I have seen so far I wouldn't have a problem travelling to the South West on one of these trains.

LNW-GW Joint · 22 Oct 2017

PaxmanValenta said:
I agree. But just imagine if we still had British Rail and MK1, 2, 3 and carriages had evolved to become MK5, 6 and 7 and the HST had been replaced with a new HST 2, then I think we'd be seeing even better comfort. Perhaps even reclining seats in standard class, triple air suspension, etc.
[snip]
...Just like flying, if you like legroom, complimentary refreshments then pay more fly with BA, if you want low fares then fly with Ryanair.
Sadly it seems TOCs are choosing the no-frills Ryanair approach but yet charging premium over priced fares and passengers have no other option.

This is quite wrong. The tendency in all transport modes is for denser configurations, because of the cost of construction and all the modern frills (eg aircon, wifi, PIS, 140mph, tilt).
BR's Mk3 and 4 seats did not always line up with windows (nor did any DMU/EMU stock from the PEP units onwards).
Mk3 IC70 seats with fixed armrests are truly awful, the toilets/doors were primitive, and Mk4 ride quality was abysmal with poor seat pitch.

Seat/vehicle costs are astronomical, so the policy everywhere is to cram as many people in as possible (26m coaches etc).
The DfT actually tells the TOCs what space is to be provided per passenger, so it's not surprising the manufacturers comply.
The low-cost airlines have proved what people will put up with for a 3-hour flight, and all the other airlines are now reducing leg room to match.
BA is no better than Ryanair now (29 inch pitch) unless you pay Business Class (x4), and rail is trying to follow suit.
Smaller, thinner seats also mean you can cram more in for the same legroom.
I was on a Trenitalia IC train last week in 1st, and there were more bad seats (blank or restricted view) than our HSTs.
It is not always better elsewhere.

BestWestern · 22 Oct 2017

bnm said:
Basing that on the current offering? Even then that'd wrong. Restaurant services between Wales and London will be provided from Class 800 kitchens. I've heard strong rumour from GWR catering crew that hot food on more services is to be trialled.

And who knows what the current or future operator of the Greater Western franchise has planned for those kitchens.

That's true, I hadn't considered the SW Pullmans, you're quite right. The situation though appears to be that the kitchens exist because that's what an IEP comes with, not for any other specific reason. The Pullman is hardly a justification for fitting an entire fleet of course. The current operator dispensed with the more universally accessible 'Travelling Chef' catering option a few years ago. Perhaps it'll make a comeback, many feel it would be welcome.

43096 · 22 Oct 2017

lordbusiness said:
Capacity pure and simple. More people travelling- can't in many cases lengthen the train. People want seats=pack em in.
A compromise has to be made, managing customers expectations is the challenge.

The problem is, though, that as fares have risen above inflation the expectations of customers increase, not unreasonably. The fact that we have to pack more people in (in many cases standing rather sitting) should not necessarily mean seats become less comfortable. There is no reason why seats become less comfortable - other than cost. The reality is the TOCs and DfT are using the cheapest seats available and to hell with the passenger - as long as passenger numbers keep rising they do not care. Should passenger numbers drop, though, they may come to regret it.

To compare train building in BR days to now is wrong. Completely different world. If BR were still around today they'd be turning out exactly there same stuff as Siemens, bombardier etc do today except more expensive and even more shoddy as there would be pressure on budgets from Govt, no private investment. Very few nationalised industries run at a profit.

You seem to have forgotten what the reality was under BR. Whilst BREL existed and built trains, there was plenty of private industry involvement. Electrical equipment in EMUs (which is the highest value part) was bought in generally from Brush or GEC; engines were bought in etc etc. BREL itself was privatised in 1989, well before the main privatisation, and it was already subject to competition: IC225 from GEC, Class 60s from Brush as a start. Even back in the 1950s/60s BR did not build all its own stock: some carriage work was done at private companies and locomotive building saw considerable numbers built by English Electric, Brush and others.

Is passenger comfort on trains getting increasingly worse?

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