Island Line Railway - current state and the future

Monty · 21 Oct 2017

Chester1 said:
I haven't used the Gosport system, what is the local opinion of it? I like the Leigh busway and after an intial low uptake it then needed an extra service to meet demand. I would have prefered it to have been a Metrolink line but the finances did not stack up and there is not a suitable route to connect it to the rest of the system.

It's convenient if you live along the BRT section of the E1/E2 routes and you wish to go in to Fareham but thats about it, beyond Hutfield Link the buses use existing roads towards Gosport Bus Station which is far from ideal during busy times of the day, it's not cheap either. Sad fact is £25 million was spent on converting just under 2 miles of track bed when the journey from Fareham to Gosport is some 7-8 miles long(depending on the route taken). The route should of been retained for passenger use after the navy had stopped using it, Gosport and the surrounding estates of Rowner and Bridge Mary are more than large enough to support a passenger service.

hooverboy said:
my point being that systems such as this are FULLY automatic.
you get the occasional random ticket inspector.that's it.

lets take the example of video posted. about double the length of island line. no driver,or guard.I have personal experience of using that line on a daily basis and it's generally very good...and at €1.30 per trip a hell of a lot cheaper than a typical end to en town bus journey.

The problem is that system was built in a large city and is heavily subsidised by the local authority, the cost of construction would be insanely expensive. The IoW council are not rolling in dough and neither is are the Portsmouth/Gosport councils are for that matter either.

RailUK Forums

DenmarkRail · 21 Oct 2017

Why can't people here be more positive? There are many cheap rolling stock options that I've mentioned before (Berlin U55) that people have selectively ignored... This line will not close because it would be political suicide for the Transport Sec, and also the local MP... I am certain, that by 2020, there will be new stock running on the line!

Dougal2345 · 21 Oct 2017

George Moore said:
This line will not close because it would be political suicide for the Transport Sec, and also the local MP...

The previous MP wasn't a great fan of the railway IIRC, and did end up committing political suicide ironically, although not for railway related reasons...

Chester1 said:
Would St Johns Road to Shanklin work as part of the IWSR? [...] Wootton to Shanklin with the loco running around at St Johns Road would be aproximately 13 miles, which would make the IWSR one of the largest heritage railways in the UK. [...] Obviously the electrical equipment would need to be removed.

If that happened, they should keep the electrical equipment and use it for preserved third rail stuff... They could have the Brighton Belle running up and down it all day

tickets would probably still be cheaper than the bus....

Pete_uk · 21 Oct 2017

Class 230's would fit, wouldn't they?

Chris M · 21 Oct 2017

Pete_uk said:
Class 230's would fit, wouldn't they?

Probably not, see many, many previous posts on this thread.
They are possibly too tall, almost certainly too long and the floor height is too high. The last is not insurmountable just an added expense, but the other two are.

Xenophon PCDGS · 21 Oct 2017

Pete_uk said:
Class 230's would fit, wouldn't they?

You are Adrian Shooter and I claim my £5.

(only the more elderly of forum members will understand this)

Busaholic · 21 Oct 2017

Paul Sidorczuk said:
You are Adrian Shooter and I claim my £5.

(only the more elderly of forum members will understand this)

Was he related to Lobby Lud?

Chris125 · 21 Oct 2017

Pete_uk said:
Class 230's would fit, wouldn't they?

Please have a look at my previous post - D78s may be a possibility but the Vivarail conversions are taller and obviously heavier, so less likely.

Bletchleyite · 21 Oct 2017

What's the condition of the third rail kit? Any benefit to de-electrifying? If not why wouldn't you just use as-built D78s rather than 230s?

Chris M · 21 Oct 2017

Bletchleyite said:
What's the condition of the third rail kit? Any benefit to de-electrifying? If not why wouldn't you just use as-built D78s rather than 230s?

AIUI there are no as-built D78s left other than the one in the museum and the one being converted for sandite duties. The rest are either with VivaRail or scrapped.

Domh245 · 22 Oct 2017

Chris M said:
AIUI there are no as-built D78s left other than the one in the museum and the one being converted for sandite duties. The rest are either with VivaRail or scrapped.

They are with vivarail, but the majority of them haven't been modified yet. They are sat at Long Martson in an "as-decommissioned" state AIUI. They could very easily just do the interior refurbishment works and front end modifications and then ship them off to the island if that is what they wanted, or leave them as is, although I'm not sure about if they'd be approved for use if sent as-is.

Xenophon PCDGS · 22 Oct 2017

Domh245 said:
They are with vivarail, but the majority of them haven't been modified yet. They are sat at Long Martson in an "as-decommissioned" state AIUI. They could very easily just do the interior refurbishment works and front end modifications and then ship them off to the island if that is what they wanted, or leave them as is, although I'm not sure about if they'd be approved for use if sent as-is.

What would the most suitable of the Class 230 traction modes now offered by Vivarail for use on the Island Line?

Bletchleyite · 22 Oct 2017

Chris M said:
AIUI there are no as-built D78s left other than the one in the museum and the one being converted for sandite duties. The rest are either with VivaRail or scrapped.

Vivarail have them but most of them are still untouched. I'm sure they would sell at the right price.

Chris125 · 22 Oct 2017

Domh245 said:
They could very easily just do the interior refurbishment works and front end modifications and then ship them off to the island if that is what they wanted, or leave them as is, although I'm not sure about if they'd be approved for use if sent as-is.

They should be fine as they are, Island Line like London Underground is excluded from 'mainline railway requirements' as described here.

Dstock7080 · 22 Oct 2017

Chris M said:
AIUI there are no as-built D78s left other than the one in the museum and the one being converted for sandite duties. The rest are either with VivaRail or scrapped.

Two 5-car RAT trains are being formed and a ‘spare’ 3-car double-ended unit (7526) remains at Neasden. Car 7012 is indeed at the Museum at Acton and cars 7007 and 7032 are in use in Acton Works.

Cars at Long Marsden, (over 200) are sitting as individual cars, all UNDM cars have gone for scrap.

DelW · 22 Oct 2017

Chris125 said:
It's great for a bus service, but so many use the train (especially for journeys to and from the mainland) for good reason:

- the bus takes around twice as long between Ryde and Shanklin
- it's far less convenient for luggage/prams/bikes
- single fares are ruinously expensive
- it isn't remotely as reliable as the train service especially in summer or when there are roadworks
- it can't use the pier and connect with the Catamaran service.

These are not minor issues, especially when connectivity with the mainland is so important for Sandown Bay.

A further factor that I don't think has been mentioned is that the railway offers through tickets from any station on the mainland to the principal Island resorts. Holidaymakers heading for Sandown, Lake or Shanklin can buy one ticket giving pretty quick and seamless transfer at Portsmouth and Ryde. If they could only book to Pier Head, then had to transfer and buy another ticket on a possible minibus, then again onto a Vectis bus, they might decide it's too complicated and to stay on the mainland instead.
I'm also unconvinced that conversion to a busway would be feasible without massive expense. It's all single track, and while some was reduced from double, I think that stretches were only built as single and would make a very inadequate busway. Bridge clearance would limit services to single deckers, unlike most island buses which are double deckers.

Bletchleyite · 22 Oct 2017

It doesn't strike me as rocket science that there could be "IoW Plusbus" including boat and bus.

DelW · 22 Oct 2017

Bletchleyite said:
It doesn't strike me as rocket science that there could be "IoW Plusbus" including boat and bus.

Indeed it wouldn't be, but AFAIK nothing of that sort is offered via the other ferry routes, even Lymington - Yarmouth which has a direct rail connection on the mainland side.

A0wen · 22 Oct 2017

DelW said:
A further factor that I don't think has been mentioned is that the railway offers through tickets from any station on the mainland to the principal Island resorts. Holidaymakers heading for Sandown, Lake or Shanklin can buy one ticket giving pretty quick and seamless transfer at Portsmouth and Ryde. If they could only book to Pier Head, then had to transfer and buy another ticket on a possible minibus, then again onto a Vectis bus, they might decide it's too complicated and to stay on the mainland instead.
.

Complete irrelevance. Are you seriously suggesting that a lack of through ticketing would put people off?

People manage to travel to the Isle of Man, Channel Islands, Sciliy Isles, Malta and a hundred and one other places without such 'through' ticketing.

50 years ago it *might* have made a difference. In this day and age with the internet providing all the information a traveller could need, it's an irrelevant piece of 'whataboutery'.

DelW · 22 Oct 2017

A0wen said:
Complete irrelevance. Are you seriously suggesting that a lack of through ticketing would put people off?

People manage to travel to the Isle of Man, Channel Islands, Sciliy Isles, Malta and a hundred and one other places without such 'through' ticketing.

50 years ago it *might* have made a difference. In this day and age with the internet providing all the information a traveller could need, it's an irrelevant piece of 'whataboutery'.

A lot of people are happy to do that, but a lot of visitors to the island are older folk who like simpler travel. And I know that a lot of older people do travel far and wide, but the traditional Island resorts appeal to those who don't.

ainsworth74 · 22 Oct 2017

Chris125 said:
They should be fine as they are

They would still need converting from fourth rail to third rail operation don't forget.

Dougal2345 · 22 Oct 2017

A0wen said:
Complete irrelevance. Are you seriously suggesting that a lack of through ticketing would put people off?

Through tickets are often cheaper. It would put me off Eurostar travel for example, if I always had to buy the London to Paris/Brussels bit separately from my actual European destination, which would then work out to be much more expensive...

yorksrob · 22 Oct 2017

Bletchleyite said:
It doesn't strike me as rocket science that there could be "IoW Plusbus" including boat and bus.

I'm still awaiting such an innovation to enable a reasonably priced through ticket from the railway network to Padstow, but I've yet to see it happen.

yorksrob · 22 Oct 2017

A0wen said:
Complete irrelevance. Are you seriously suggesting that a lack of through ticketing would put people off?

People manage to travel to the Isle of Man, Channel Islands, Sciliy Isles, Malta and a hundred and one other places without such 'through' ticketing.

50 years ago it *might* have made a difference. In this day and age with the internet providing all the information a traveller could need, it's an irrelevant piece of 'whataboutery'.

I've seen a lot of far less relevant posts on this thread from those espousing busway conversion. I'm sure a lot of visitors like being able to get a through ticket to their destination on the IoW, as well as being able to continue their journey on the train.

yorksrob · 22 Oct 2017

ainsworth74 said:
Out of curiosity have you used Southern Vectis? As people who know me will atest I am far from a being a fan of busses but I was very impressed by the quality of service provided on the Isle of Wight.

I have not - but the point I made some posts ago is that even if Southern Vectis is the most wonderful bus company ever to grace the planet, there is absolutely no way of guaranteeing that this will still be the case in the future. Bus companies get bought out, routes get declared unprofitable and local authorities are heavily restricted in the influence they are allowed over services.

I repeat that to get rid of one mode of transport in favour of another which happens to be better than most bus operators at this moment in time is an extreme gamble.

yorksrob · 22 Oct 2017

Chester1 said:
I will admit that buses aren't as comfortable as trains but such OTT statements about bus travel do indicate there are rail enthusiasts who will never support a bus scheme over a rail scheme regardless of the costs or practicalities.

Yes, I can confirm that I have no intention of ever supporting some preposterous scheme to replace part of the passenger network with a busway, particularly when the arguments supposedly in favour - i.e. that unlike every other operational railway in the United Kingdom the route is expected to last forever without any renewal work, and if this is not possible it is somehow a basket case, or the argument that somehow rolling stock renewal is bespoke, even though there is plenty of stock built to exactly the same dimensions on the largest metro system in the world - are complete hogwash.

yorksrob · 22 Oct 2017

StephenHunter said:
Didn't BR cite the existence of an effective local bus service when it closed lines under Beeching... then that service got run down itself? The Epping-Ongar bus service is far inferior to what we'd have had if that line stayed fully open.

Exactly. And I have had experience of trying to get a bus between Epping and Ongar - the trek is an extremely awkward one.

A0wen · 22 Oct 2017

DelW said:
A lot of people are happy to do that, but a lot of visitors to the island are older folk who like simpler travel. And I know that a lot of older people do travel far and wide, but the traditional Island resorts appeal to those who don't.

Most of the 'older folk' I know are completely internet savvy, use tablets and smart phones. A lack of through ticketing doesn't put them off.

Those who I know that aren't tend not to travel independently and go on organised tours e.g. Shearings.

I think the group you think exist probably represent less than 1% of the tourist trade to the IoW.

A0wen · 22 Oct 2017

yorksrob said:
Exactly. And I have had experience of trying to get a bus between Epping and Ongar - the trek is an extremely awkward one.

Except for the fact that tube line only ran limited journeys at peak hours because nobody used it.....

A0wen · 22 Oct 2017

yorksrob said:
I've seen a lot of far less relevant posts on this thread from those espousing busway conversion. I'm sure a lot of visitors like being able to get a through ticket to their destination on the IoW, as well as being able to continue their journey on the train.

"I'm sure a lot of visitors "

And I bet your 'alot' is actually less than 1% of the island's tourist visitors.

Island Line Railway - current state and the future

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