MML: why is the Sunday timetable so bad?

cactustwirly · 22 Oct 2017

On the MML the Monday - Saturday timetable is: 1tph fast Sheffield, 1tph Semi fast Sheffield, 1tph fast Nottingham & 1tph slow Nottingham.

So you have 4tph between Leicester & London, 3 of which give journey times of around an hour.

on a Sunday the frequency is halved, with 1tph slow Nottingham & 1tph slow Sheffield, giving journey times of 105-120 minutes from Leicester to London.

Why aren't there any Sunday fast trains?

I've just been on 2x HST services which were quite busy, so there is demand for more services on a Sunday

RailUK Forums

London Trains · 22 Oct 2017

I once got a 5 car Meridian from London to Leicester and the same type train back on a Sunday. On the way, it was full and standing dangerously, I had to sit on top of luggage with people pushing me from all sides. On the way back it was fine, because it was the 2nd to last train. But this needs to be sorted out, a lot of it is for passengers for stations before Market Harborough which need a slow on a Sunday. The Sunday service should probably be the same as Saturday, but with the Semi-Fast maybe being a slow due to the lack of Corby services to London.

12CSVT · 22 Oct 2017

In addition to what the OP has mentioned, the vastly reduced frequency means that many MML trains on a Sunday afternoon are completely wedged

One small timetable change which would make a big difference in my view - the first northbound of the day (10:20 Leicester to York) should start either at St Pancras or Bedford. This would enable passengers from London to arrive in Sheffield before midday. Whatever reason for this train starting at Leicester, it isn't engineering works, as there are numerous soubound departures from Leicester before 10:20.

Ianno87 · 22 Oct 2017

Two track railway south of Bedford for engineering access will be one of the reasons...

DarloRich · 22 Oct 2017

Ianno87 said:
Two track railway south of Bedford for engineering access will be one of the reasons...

is the correct answer. There is so much work going on that timetable changes are inevitable.

70014IronDuke · 22 Oct 2017

DarloRich said:
is the correct answer. There is so much work going on that timetable changes are inevitable.

I don't think so. Surely there has never been any more than 2 TPH on Sundays, except towards the late afternoon/evening peaks?

I can accept that engineering work may be one barrier to additional trains - yes - but the fundamental timetable has been in existence for some years, hasn't it?

EMT have obviously decided that on Sundays it is a "semi-fast" priority railway. It has opted for a half hourly service stopping (almost) everywhere, every hour - rather than the more traditional semi-fast each hour feeding into the express at Leicester. (The old 'integrated' timetable - as one poster calls this - with Class 45s calling alternately at Derby and Nottingham did this so neatly back in the day.)

I think it must be infuriating to the longer-distance passengers, but obviously EMT thinks its a better money earner this way.

Ianno87 · 22 Oct 2017

Can't run more than 2 trains per hour if the two track railway capacity simply doesn't allow any more than that.

Class 170101 · 22 Oct 2017

Whats EMT like for Train Crew working on Sundays? Is it part of the Roster or Voluntary?

paddy1 · 22 Oct 2017

I can understand how the lack of paths on a Sunday can limit frequency. But what I have noticed more and more is that the once hourly all shacks EMT services between London and Nottingham/Derby/Sheffield are increasingly being run as 5 car (or even 4 car) only Meridians, which is pretty appalling and totally unacceptable given how busy Sunday services are on these routes. I travelled on a Nottingham bound 5 car Sunday all shacks service the other week boarding at Luton Airport Parkway and it was absolutely rammed, with about 50-60 people standing in each carriage. EMT have clearly been 'trying it on' over the years and feel confident they can 'get away with it', which has encouraged them to run more services as 5 car only. As EMT have sufficient stock to run five trains an hour off peak to/from London from Monday to Saturday, and more in the peaks, it is clearly not down to lack of stock. Even worse is the very high off peak fares compared to off peak fares for similiar distances on WCML.

hooverboy · 22 Oct 2017

cactustwirly said:
On the MML the Monday - Saturday timetable is: 1tph fast Sheffield, 1tph Semi fast Sheffield, 1tph fast Nottingham & 1tph slow Nottingham.

So you have 4tph between Leicester & London, 3 of which give journey times of around an hour.

on a Sunday the frequency is halved, with 1tph slow Nottingham & 1tph slow Sheffield, giving journey times of 105-120 minutes from Leicester to London.

I've just been on 2x HST services which were quite busy, so there is demand for more services on a Sunday

it's adequate for the amount of people on the service.I have more of a problem with a 4 or 5 car 222 turning up in peak times during the week.more so considering 2 cars are dedicated to first class...leaves only 3 sardine-filled cans for the plebs like me.

Qwerty133 · 22 Oct 2017

hooverboy said:
it's adequate for the amount of people on the service.I have more of a problem with a 4 or 5 car 222 turning up in peak times during the week.more so considering 2 cars are dedicated to first class...leaves only 3 sardine-filled cans for the plebs like me.

So despite numerous people saying the trains are overcrowded it is perfectly acceptable.
During peak times all stock is in use so its not as easy to lengthen services although it was unacceptable that EMT gave 2 HSTs to VTEC.

43096 · 22 Oct 2017

Qwerty133 said:
During peak times all stock is in use so its not as easy to lengthen services although it was unacceptable that EMT gave 2 HSTs to VTEC.

Why? East Coast's need is probably greater. Worth remembering, too, that one of the sets that is now working on East Coast was the set that was the diagrammed standby set at Etches Park, so it wasn't actually booked to be in traffic.

Hairy Bear · 22 Oct 2017

So east coast needs are more important than ours.
Ever since this has occurred we have no spare sets anymore or spare powercars. Each morning we are on a knife edge to provide enough sets for the full service. It has become common to have shortformed sets in the evening peak and a 4/5 car standing in for a hst or 7car.
We have no capacity to meet the further increase in passengers now which is why so many are beginning to stand.
The spare hst at Derby was very useful and was used quite often during the week.
A massive mistake by our management to allow this to happen and a great shortsighted attitude.

Qwerty133 · 22 Oct 2017

43096 said:
Why? East Coast's need is probably greater. Worth remembering, too, that one of the sets that is now working on East Coast was the set that was the diagrammed standby set at Etches Park, so it wasn't actually booked to be in traffic.

If that is the case the DFT would have pushed for the transfer and EMT would have been able to get something out of it.
Instead it seems to have gone like this
EC: can we have one of your trains
EMT: Of course you can, in fact take 2
EC: thank you
(DFT and other franchisees thinking: EMT are pushovers who can take the brunt of our failings)

rg177 · 22 Oct 2017

Weirdly enough during engineering works today there seemed to be a fair bit more capacity- with more HSTs in the mix.

1505 Sheffield-St Pancras via Toton and Derby was 8 car HST
1856 Sheffield-St Pancras direct via Toton into East Midlands Parkway was a 7 car
1902 Sheffield-St Pancras via Toton and Derby was 8 car HST

1735 St Pancras-Sheffield direct via Toton was 2x5 car

All very very busy on departure from Chesterfield, even the northbound one which was full in all standard carriages.

43096 · 22 Oct 2017

Hairy Bear said:
So east coast needs are more important than ours.
Ever since this has occurred we have no spare sets anymore or spare powercars. Each morning we are on a knife edge to provide enough sets for the full service. It has become common to have shortformed sets in the evening peak and a 4/5 car standing in for a hst or 7car.
We have no capacity to meet the further increase in passengers now which is why so many are beginning to stand.
The spare hst at Derby was very useful and was used quite often during the week.
A massive mistake by our management to allow this to happen and a great shortsighted attitude.

Nonsense about the power cars. EMT's requirement is 18 power cars from 24 on weekdays (which includes the 2 hired to VTEC for NL65). That is 75% availability, which is a lower requirement than GWR or VTEC. That's why EMT are able to hire to VTEC to cover shortages there, as there is usually at least one spare power car at NL.

Redeployment of an HST from EMT to VTEC would have to be agreed at Stagecoach group level and by the DfT. Use of a set on a VTEC diagram is a bigger benefit to passengers than a standby set at Etches Park.

Halish Railway · 22 Oct 2017

On Sunday's there are quite a lot of movements around Etches Park depot, I've seen two movements around 11 o clock going to Sheffield, both being double Meridians. I've got a video of Duffield at around 12 o clock on a Sunday, many Meridians being doubled up or 7 coaches -

Halish Railway · 22 Oct 2017

43096 said:
Nonsense about the power cars. EMT's requirement is 18 power cars from 24 on weekdays (which includes the 2 hired to VTEC for NL65). That is 75% availability, which is a lower requirement than GWR or VTEC. That's why EMT are able to hire to VTEC to cover shortages there, as there is usually at least one spare power car at NL.

Redeployment of an HST from EMT to VTEC would have to be agreed at Stagecoach group level and by the DfT. Use of a set on a VTEC diagram is a bigger benefit to passengers than a standby set at Etches Park.

That would explain why so many extra services operated by EMT are HST operated

Hairy Bear · 22 Oct 2017

43096 said:
Nonsense about the power cars. EMT's requirement is 18 power cars from 24 on weekdays (which includes the 2 hired to VTEC for NL65). That is 75% availability, which is a lower requirement than GWR or VTEC. That's why EMT are able to hire to VTEC to cover shortages there, as there is usually at least one spare power car at .

Nonsense is it? , one of us is an emt driver and knows what happens each week. And there are frequently no spare powercars and the other week 2 sets didn't leave n/hill in the morning both requiring powercars. Still we know we're your allegiance lies ,VTEC must come first.

tbtc · 22 Oct 2017

Two paths per hour from London to Leicester on a Sunday, fair enough, but is there at least scope for more Leicester/East Midland Parkway services to Sheffield/ Nottingham, to give those cities a half hourly connection to/from London?

Qwerty133 said:
If that is the case the DFT would have pushed for the transfer and EMT would have been able to get something out of it.
Instead it seems to have gone like this
EC: can we have one of your trains
EMT: Of course you can, in fact take 2
EC: thank you
(DFT and other franchisees thinking: EMT are pushovers who can take the brunt of our failings)

It's worth remembering that there are other factors in the Game Of Seats... EMT were dealt a poor hand when they inherited the worst of the old Central Trains fleet (i.e. LM/ XC got the 170s... EMT only had enough DMUs to run two coaches per hour from Nottingham to Liverpool, which was a reduction from what Central had run)...

...so it may have been the case that Stagecoach prioritised extra DMUs for the "Provincial" side (over LDHS stock for the InterCity side) and the four 156s from Northern were more important than the two HSTs? So, in negotiations with the DfT, it was maybe worth giving up the HSTs if it meant getting some more Sprinters?

(the four 222s from Hull Trains almost cancel out the capacity of the HSTs, but they were mainly needed for Corby duties so not much use to the rest of the network).

SpacePhoenix · 23 Oct 2017

Ianno87 said:
Two track railway south of Bedford for engineering access will be one of the reasons...

Would having two (or three if technically possible) units for different destinations coupled together between St Pancras and Bedford be possible/viable? They could divide at Bedford, each heading off to their own destinations but allowing a little extra time at Bedford for any passengers who've gotten on the wrong unit to transfer to the correct one

Qwerty133 · 23 Oct 2017

tbtc said:
Two paths per hour from London to Leicester on a Sunday, fair enough, but is there at least scope for more Leicester/East Midland Parkway services to Sheffield/ Nottingham, to give those cities a half hourly connection to/from London?

It's worth remembering that there are other factors in the Game Of Seats... EMT were dealt a poor hand when they inherited the worst of the old Central Trains fleet (i.e. LM/ XC got the 170s... EMT only had enough DMUs to run two coaches per hour from Nottingham to Liverpool, which was a reduction from what Central had run)...

...so it may have been the case that Stagecoach prioritised extra DMUs for the "Provincial" side (over LDHS stock for the InterCity side) and the four 156s from Northern were more important than the two HSTs? So, in negotiations with the DfT, it was maybe worth giving up the HSTs if it meant getting some more Sprinters?

(the four 222s from Hull Trains almost cancel out the capacity of the HSTs, but they were mainly needed for Corby duties so not much use to the rest of the network).

I'm pretty sure the additional 156s had been procured long before any talk of HSTs going to EC was ever on the cards.

Qwerty133 · 23 Oct 2017

SpacePhoenix said:
Would having two (or three if technically possible) units for different destinations coupled together between St Pancras and Bedford be possible/viable? They could divide at Bedford, each heading off to their own destinations but allowing a little extra time at Bedford for any passengers who've gotten on the wrong unit to transfer to the correct one

Potentially, but I'd see no benefit to that over doing it at Leicester and it would prohibit anything longer than the 5 coaches working north of Leicester due to platform lengths making 10 cars the longest viable length.

70014IronDuke · 23 Oct 2017

Qwerty133 said:
Potentially, but I'd see no benefit to that over doing it at Leicester and it would prohibit anything longer than the 5 coaches working north of Leicester due to platform lengths making 10 cars the longest viable length.

The benefit would be in having a faster service to Leicester and onwards to either Derby/Sheff or Nottingham.

How abou this. I don't know if it can be done in terms of capacity/capacities (or whether there is a need) in terms of platform space or passenger demand - but let's say you ran trains from St pancras at

xx.00 Luton, Bedford (split) - front five non stop Leicester, then EMP, Nottingham.
- rear five all stops Leicester - where it waits for the XX.30, is overtaken and then all stops Nottingham
xx.30 LAP, Bedford (Split) - front five non-stop Leicester, then EMP, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield.
rear five all stops Leicester - where it waits to be overtaken by the following XX.00, and then all stops to Derby.
Result - two fairly fast trains per hour to Leicester direct, and by changing, to Nottingham and Derby.

You could, of course, make numerous variations on the above - but in essence you could provide much faster Sunday services to the main cities on the line by splitting and joining at Bedford. And you'd still have only 2 TPH south to St Pancras.

The Midland, however, has never taken to splitting trains en route as far as I'm aware. It's funny, but I've been thinking only recently that if they'd had some thinking like this back in 1957 or so, they might have introduced some 2-car DMUs compatible with the 4-car RR sets (were they 127s?) and used them on stopping services north of Bedford. That way, BR might have been able to justify keeping the Melton route to Nottingham as well as stations like Desborough, Kibworth Harcourt, Irchester and Sharnbrook.

43096 · 23 Oct 2017

Hairy Bear said:
Nonsense is it? , one of us is an emt driver and knows what happens each week. And there are frequently no spare powercars and the other week 2 sets didn't leave n/hill in the morning both requiring powercars. Still we know we're your allegiance lies ,VTEC must come first.

To paraphrase an old line: what's the difference between a train driver and God? God doesn't think he's a train driver.

You are a driver. Not in fleet management. You are no more an expert than anyone else and you certainly don't have the full picture. So one occasion where 2 sets didn't start their diagram is a trend, is it? On the other hand there have been many, many occasions when EMT has hired spare power car(s) to VTEC in addition to resourcing all their own services.

You have no idea about my "allegiance" because I don't have one in this case. Just pointing out that some hard decisions have had to be made about use of a finite resource and where the best overall benefit is. Obviously that doesn't fit your agenda.....

MML: why is the Sunday timetable so bad?

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