That’s very easy to say. However there is not a human being alive able to cope with the changing shifts on the railway. Talk to any driver certainly, and they’re pretty much tired all the time. There is little sympathy or understanding for this on the railway. We are set up to fail then blamed when we do.
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Night shift fatigue (RAIB report)
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That’s very easy to say. However there is not a human being alive able to cope with the changing shifts on the railway. Talk to any driver certainly, and they’re pretty much tired all the time. There is little sympathy or understanding for this on the railway. We are set up to fail then blamed when we do.
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Qwerty133
Established Member
You seem to have taken this post out of context, as it was specifically about people who consider it acceptable to look after their children all day followed by working all night.
bramling
Veteran Member
Was this roster arrangement something imposed by the company, or was it a local arrangement put in because people liked having more days off?
Bromley boy
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Most people on the railway plan their lives, such as they can, around their shifts rather than vice versa. Quite rightly.
The fact is, however much you try and plan around it, the nature of an extreme, constantly changing shift pattern is that you will find yourself close to “living without sleeping for a number of days at a time” just by following the normal shift pattern!
The TOCs say “it’s your responsibility to turn up well rested” but then impose a shift pattern making this physically impossible - and woe betide the driver who dares to say he is too tired to work....
Hence incidents like the one we are discussing.
EDIT: I’d actually like to see ASLEF raising the profile of fatigue issues to a larger extent than they already do. It doesn’t seem to be an issue that is discussed very much.
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Fatigue will sadly kill someone in this industry. I think it's about time the ORR regulated shifts better. My TOC is currently wishing to extend some turns that start at unholy hours ignoring the RSSB own recommendations on fatigue management for shifts.
From what to what if you don't mind me asking?
Quickthorn
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Looking at the OP's link, it says that "RSSB advocates a limit of 8 hours for the first night shift [...]". The driver involved in the incident was on a shift of 8h 35m.
We've got a night turn that lasts 9hrs 50min, and that comes after 4 mornings. You finish 15:00 one day and book on 21:27 the next. It's actually a popular shift, as there's only about 4 hours work involved. You are as ordered for the middle 5 hours, and there's nothing you can do at that time, so that appeals to some people. Personally, I don't like it, as the last part is 1.5 hours continuous driving starting at 5:30, and ends with entering an occupied platform and attaching to the unit standing there waiting for you - an incident waiting to happen, IMO. It also illustrates how the people who design the links and diagrams have absolutely no regard for anything other than the basic Hidden rules.
Mintona
Established Member
I got up for work at 3am on Saturday morning, and got home from work at 3am Sunday night/Monday morning. And that is by far and away the easiest shift turnaround to do.
Nights to earlies with only 1 day off (is it really a day off if you’re working the first 6 hours of it?) is the real killer. Especially with children to look after.
Nights to earlies with only 1 day off (is it really a day off if you’re working the first 6 hours of it?) is the real killer. Especially with children to look after.
No problem
A turn that currently starts between 0400-0500 that is approximately 8 hours long to something that starts at 0300 to a length of over 9 hours long with plenty of driving and not much break between trips. Not 100% sure of the reason but it's been hinted by LDC it's to try and remove parts off a night turn.
(Won't give exact times as understandably that would probably reveal my employer!)
Llanigraham
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Can't say historically, but when moving to 8 hour shifts was suggested everyone rejected it.
theageofthetra
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Unfortunately I suspect it will end being moved up the agenda somewhat once a coroners enquiry is involved.
The biggest issue which will ultimately cost this industry a lot of money is the increase in diabetes risk these pattern changes cause.
pitdiver
Member
Tubeboy put in a nutshell when he mentioned his shift pattern. I was a Stn Supervisor with LUL for period of time. Would totally agree with what he said.
Surreytraveller
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The people who design links and diagrams tend to never have done shift work, so haven't a clue about how it affects people, save what the written rules they design diagrams to tell them.
alxndr
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And often want to push it to the limits of the rules and contracts, despite the fact that current standards and guidance strongly encourage they go beyond the bear minimum.
The rules and guidance shouldn’t be seen as a hindrance like they so often are; they should be seen as a way to have a safe, healthy, happy, and productive workforce.
Isn't one of the justifications for railway staff being paid better than others especially Drivers and Conductors. The fact that they work shifts with alternating patterns? If they bought in permanent Earlies, Lates and Nights would you be willing to have an adjustment in pay/pay freeze/smaller pay increase for say 3 years to reflect you are no longer having a continually disrupted sleep pattern?
SpacePhoenix
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Do new drivers and guards have to do a minimum amount of time on any route they sign during the daytime before they're allowed to do night shifts, covering them routes?
O
A friend of mine works at a 24 hour distribution centre and staff there are on permanent early middle or late shifts, would that be workable for the railway industry? It would seem much better than changing from day to night shifts?
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Mintona
Established Member
Absolutely not. The new train crew tend to do the far more extreme shifts than the more senior folks.
yeah that's silly if its only to get rid of the night shift as I said in the other thread you are now risking the same fatigue with people having to get up too early and if you live an hour away from your depot then getting up just before 0200 is silly as you may as well have done a night shift!!
No worries but thanks for the insight.
I believe under BR you got a 'shift allowance' for certain booking on/off times. After privatisation this payment was incorporated into the basic salary along with most other allowances.
A lot of places allow permanent shift swaps mutually with each other. I know of one TOC when someone had medical or personal reasons that they could no longer be flexible with shifts, they have to go on a permanent "accommodated" turn more akin to office hours and they have to take a pay cut.
alxndr
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On the NR maintenance side of things shift allowance still exists.
I know some people who would happily trade the small paycut for permanent early shifts, and others who have asked to be kept on rotating shifts in order to keep the allowance. I think I'd probably be in the latter camp for now, although my opinion could change if my circumstances did (for example, if I was to have children).
maire23
Member
I used to be a nurse before I became disabled and minimum rest periods didn’t apply to us.
I often used to do a night shift, go home and sleep on my one day off, then be back on an early the following day. That was one of the things that finished me off, there came a point where I couldn’t cope anymore and I had a breakdown.
Couldn't agree more. I've had some jobs start before 0300 and i would sooner do a full night shift job than that. If i could, I would ban book ons between 0001 and 0400. I hate them for what they're doing to my body.
The problem is change.
It would appear many railway workers don't like change, even if it'd work out much better for them in the long run.
I don't understand shifts that book on in one location, then get a taxi journey to another location, even an hour away to get their train. Why not just call from the depot? But then I also don't understand why some shifts start at 2am. I get that trains take time to get set up and gone from the depots but surely the trains are in depots near to their starting point? I can't think of many trains that start before 4am.
But at the same time, there is a greed element.
Night rate is night rate. I even know drivers who have come in, done a shunt move which took less than an hour, yet they get paid 12 hours for doing it...
It would appear many railway workers don't like change, even if it'd work out much better for them in the long run.
I don't understand shifts that book on in one location, then get a taxi journey to another location, even an hour away to get their train. Why not just call from the depot? But then I also don't understand why some shifts start at 2am. I get that trains take time to get set up and gone from the depots but surely the trains are in depots near to their starting point? I can't think of many trains that start before 4am.
But at the same time, there is a greed element.
Night rate is night rate. I even know drivers who have come in, done a shunt move which took less than an hour, yet they get paid 12 hours for doing it...
Richard1960
Member
As an NHS worker I worked a three shift system once 7am to 2pm. 2pm to 10pm and 10pm to 7am on a rotating basis for years , on a week about with days off in between ,it knocked the stuffing out of me on nights if I couldn't sleep because my body clock was catching up on last weeks shifts would go in knackered and be overtired when I got in.
Are our body clocks really designed for this?
So glad I just do days now feel much better then rotating on all those ****fs.
Are our body clocks really designed for this?
So glad I just do days now feel much better then rotating on all those ****fs.
In what way. Your
What kind of changes are you proposing or have actually been proposed already that we are refusing ?
There is a lot here you do not understand. Which parts would you like explained ?
Must resist....
Bunsenburner
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In my previous job on track, i had shifts all over the place. It was a 2 week confirmed roster and as long as they didnt roster you over 72 hours in 1 week, it was pretty much a free for all. It wouldnt be out of place to work a saturday night, monday day, wednesday night and a friday day. Needless to say, my health suffered through this both physically and mentally. The management saw the rostering guidlines as a massive hindrance and tried to flout the rules as much as they could, knowing that the union were pretty useless at out company.
Now im at a passenger TOC, everything is so much better. A guarenteed shift pattern i can plan my life around, and a happy home life. I still suffer with bad bouts of IBS, and i really struggle to wake up for earlies now, but on the whole, much better. I still think that my TOC pushes the limit on how much work to cram in to a turn though.
Now im at a passenger TOC, everything is so much better. A guarenteed shift pattern i can plan my life around, and a happy home life. I still suffer with bad bouts of IBS, and i really struggle to wake up for earlies now, but on the whole, much better. I still think that my TOC pushes the limit on how much work to cram in to a turn though.
BestWestern
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I think it's high time the Hidden rules were reviewed. There is talk about fatigue constantly in the railway industry, and yet the one thing that never changes are the shift patterns that cause that fatigue. Steadily, more and more of the responsibility for managing fatigue has been loaded onto staff, whilst there appears to be precious little desire to pass rulings that would tame such damaging workloads. With each briefing, notice or training session staff are further reminded of their obligations not to come to work tired, and yet as we see here there are scant few affected individuals who feel comfortable taking action if they are. And indeed, most are seemingly fatigued regularly. It's the elephant in the room, and Tramlink have found to their enormous cost how dangerous it can be. It's worthy of note that motorists are now being steadily encouraged to view 'driving tired' as the new drink driving, alcohol being a massive no-no on the railway. Food for thought.
It's clear that 12 hours between shifts simply isn't sufficient. When crew are being rostered little more than that bare minimum in some cases, and then have to include travelling home and back again, eating, sleeping and generally functioning as a human being within that time between finishing work and returning, the problem is glaringly obvious. Similarly, the generations old practice of completing a late shift on a Saturday night/Sunday morning, having a nominal 'day off' on Sunday and then being expected to rise again in the early hours of Monday morning, very clearly makes being properly rested a complete impossibility. This is a particular concern when the start of a week of early shifts is marked by substantial fatigue. Simple proposals such as extending the 12 hour barrier to 14 or 16 hours, grouping early and late shifts into blocks of two weeks or more rather than alternating weekly, and ensuring that late - to - early shift rotations include a barrier period of more than single day off, are long overdue for serious consideration.
It's clear that 12 hours between shifts simply isn't sufficient. When crew are being rostered little more than that bare minimum in some cases, and then have to include travelling home and back again, eating, sleeping and generally functioning as a human being within that time between finishing work and returning, the problem is glaringly obvious. Similarly, the generations old practice of completing a late shift on a Saturday night/Sunday morning, having a nominal 'day off' on Sunday and then being expected to rise again in the early hours of Monday morning, very clearly makes being properly rested a complete impossibility. This is a particular concern when the start of a week of early shifts is marked by substantial fatigue. Simple proposals such as extending the 12 hour barrier to 14 or 16 hours, grouping early and late shifts into blocks of two weeks or more rather than alternating weekly, and ensuring that late - to - early shift rotations include a barrier period of more than single day off, are long overdue for serious consideration.
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Bromley boy
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It will certainly be interesting to see what impact, if any, the ongoing investigation into the Croydon Tramlink incident has on this issue. I believe the shift patterns on the Tramlink are quite similar to railway shifts. All seems to have gone quiet on that recently...
Bromley boy
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Where do you get that from? There's no such thing as "night rate", nights are pass and parcel of the regular shift structure.
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