Incident at Harrow & Wealdstone 25/10/17

LU_timetabler · 25 Oct 2017

What a crazy evening!! It really shows the utter disaster that multiple train operating companies causes and the VERY poor communication to customers about what to do. So my route to Carpenders Park originally started as, the Underground / Overground are still running so I'll get Bakerloo at Embankment all the way to Harrow and then switch to Overground..... foiled at Kilburn Park when driver announced turning short at Stonebridge Park... well I'm not going to wait there...... so reverse back Baker Street (LU station staff here has no ideas or suggestions to help me get home!) - try the Met, get a Watford bound train and maybe the once every 2 hours bus from Northwood to Carpenders Park will show up.... there's a match on at Wembley and the train is packed!! I squeeze on. Check my phone between Wembley and Harrow and it looks like the status update on TfL website has said line reopened, without saying line reopened!! So, I get off at Harrow and ask the station staff...... well done LU Harrow-on-the-Hill staff, you knew what I asked and confirmed Overground had reopened .... YAYYY, so back 1 stop to Northwick Park, walk to Kenton, wait 10 mins for Overground, running 15 down and get to my destination and home. What a polava!! What is really annoying is that when you are on a train there's no information coming to you about a closure until it is too late - that's why I say VERY poor communication. I am sure it will have been a difficult incident to deal with.

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LU_timetabler · 25 Oct 2017

Bletchleyite said:
Indeed they were, though not calling at Harrow. I think the 1834 LM may well have been the first train to call there since the incident.

Apparently LU were non-stopping Euston and were telling people it was closed outright, which was neither truthful (at 1800ish when it was allegedly happening) nor useful. I assume this was due to Tube platform overcrowding, but misinformation wasn't necessary.

Well, that was the case at the start of the incident, then DC lines too were suspended, just when I needed them, then they reopened again stopping all stations - I don't really understand why!! Hence my comment above.

Bletchleyite · 25 Oct 2017

LU_timetabler said:
What a crazy evening!! It really shows the utter disaster that multiple train operating companies causes and the VERY poor communication to customers about what to do. So the first question if the incident happened on the main lines, why was the Overground / Bakerloo suspended?

Because the incident happened on the fasts, which are next to the DC lines, with the possibility of, er, debris needing to be checked for? If they were suspended it wasn't for long.

DarloRich · 26 Oct 2017

LU_timetabler said:
What a crazy evening!! It really shows the utter disaster that multiple train operating companies causes and the VERY poor communication to customers about what to do. So the first question if the incident happened on the main lines, why was the Overground / Bakerloo suspended?

LU_timetabler said:
Why if it happened on the fast lines did they need to suspend the slow lines?

without wishing to get into the details it should be fairly obvious why all lines were closed....................

LU_timetabler said:
It is too important and too busy a line to allow the emergency services this much power to close all the lines.

Sorry Mrs Smith we would like to investigate the potential murder of your husband but, you know, commuters. What can we do?

Bletchleyite said:
In a wonderful piece of lack of consideration on someone's part (be that control or the guard), the 2001 Bletchley-Bedford departed on time. Just before the doors from the first train from Euston for a couple of hours opened at Bletchley, so anyone wanting Marston Vale local stations had to wait an hour.

Holding it for 2-3 minutes would have done, and often is.

A poor show. The policy LM have introduced is a maximum 4 minute wait by the chugger for a delayed "peak hours" train. Some common sense would have been helpful this evening.

221129 · 26 Oct 2017

LU_timetabler said:
Why if it happened on the fast lines did they need to suspend the slow lines? It is too important and too busy a line to allow the emergency services this much power to close all the lines.

Not sure if this is serious or not?!

Pumbaa · 26 Oct 2017

Bletchleyite said:
In a wonderful piece of lack of consideration on someone's part (be that control or the guard), the 2001 Bletchley-Bedford departed on time. Just before the doors from the first train from Euston for a couple of hours opened at Bletchley, so anyone wanting Marston Vale local stations had to wait an hour.

Holding it for 2-3 minutes would have done, and often is.

Need to get the PPM for the day somehow

Pumbaa · 26 Oct 2017

All Line Rover said:
Any idea why the 19:10 Euston to Holyhead is running as a 10 car double Voyager but with only a single unit (5 cars) in use? VTWC don't, to my knowledge, require a guard in each unit - I have travelled on double Voyagers with a guard in only one unit. The 19:10 - the first off-peak VTWC train to Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe and Chester - can't be pleasant this evening. It is busy enough at the best of times.

No - but they need staff in each unit. Presumably there was no staff member of sufficient grade to staff the second unit.

Pumbaa · 26 Oct 2017

I'll add my thoughts to the mix. A particularly bad one - and as ever, what makes it particularly galling is that it shouldn't have been. Poor comms from both LM and VWC, a poor recovery from both, and a terrible experience for infrequent or discretionary travellers during half term week.

There really is no excuse for running 1 train an hour out of Euston on the slows, especially when you're letting all the fast/semi-fasts to LBZ and beyond go.

Station staff (LM) seemed to get things in order reasonably quickly, including arranging alternative transport. So not all bad news!

Antman · 26 Oct 2017

Skimpot flyer said:
Surely, that statement is not correct. All mainline services may well have been suspended, but I'm pretty sure the DC services to and from Watford Junction were still running.

Were they?

Taunton · 26 Oct 2017

Pumbaa said:
Need to get the PPM for the day somehow

It is about time the DfT brought in measuring broken connections (same TOC or different) on the same reporting basis as delayed services.

LU_timetabler · 26 Oct 2017

Sussex Guy said:
Were they?

The DC was suspended for a period. Bakerloo turning at stonebridge park, Overground at Willesden. It restarted sooner than the other lines.

Bletchleyite · 26 Oct 2017

Pumbaa said:
No - but they need staff in each unit. Presumably there was no staff member of sufficient grade to staff the second unit.

I assume that's their rule, as no DOO 319 has ever had any member of safety critical staff required in the rear unit.

Mag_seven · 26 Oct 2017

I'm sure that the Down fast platform at Harrow and Wealdstone is fenced off? If so then how did the victim get onto the platform?

Antman · 26 Oct 2017

Mag_seven said:
I'm sure that the Down fast platform at Harrow and Wealdstone is fenced off? If so then how did the victim get onto the platform?

Presumably just walked off the end of the platform assuming of course this was a suicide and not an accident? It reportedly happened near Harrow & Wealdstone suggesting not actually at the station?

Bletchleyite · 26 Oct 2017

Mag_seven said:
I'm sure that the Down fast platform at Harrow and Wealdstone is fenced off? If so then how did the victim get onto the platform?

I don't know if Harrow is different being a LU operated station, but at LM stations the gates in the fences are not locked, they can't be as trains are often moved to the fasts at short notice. They are a (very effective, though sadly not in this case) psychological deterrent and allow someone watching to see that someone's where they shouldn't be.

Mag_seven · 26 Oct 2017

Bletchleyite said:
I don't know if Harrow is different being a LU operated station, but at LM stations the gates in the fences are not locked, they can't be as trains are often moved to the fasts at short notice. They are a (very effective, though sadly not in this case) psychological deterrent and allow someone watching to see that someone's where they shouldn't be.

I'm tempted to say "whats the bleedin point then" but accept the fact that as you say they do have to stop on the fasts and it would be somewhat embarrassing to have passengers unable to board and unable to leave if a train stops unscheduled on the fasts! I suppose in the end if someone is determined to end their life in this way they will find a way round it

Bletchleyite · 26 Oct 2017

Mag_seven said:
I'm tempted to say "whats the bleedin point then"

As per my post. The psychological barrier of "being somewhere you shouldn't" and someone being able to see that someone is where they shouldn't be and say something about it is significant. They have been proven to reduce railway suicides significantly (you'll never stop them completely) and therefore the high cost of installing them is considered good value.

Most people who are considering suicide have doubts. Adding one more doubt, even a minor one, into the chain is very often enough to stop it.

The ones on P1 at Bletchley (down fast) don't even *have* locks, they are just sprung gates. But if you're the wrong side of them when no train is due to stop on that platform and odds on someone will see that something is amiss. See it, say it......

Antman · 26 Oct 2017

Mag_seven said:
I'm tempted to say "whats the bleedin point then" but accept the fact that as you say they do have to stop on the fasts and it would be somewhat embarrassing to have passengers unable to board and unable to leave if a train stops unscheduled on the fasts! I suppose in the end if someone is determined to end their life in this way they will find a way round it

I think they are more to prevent accidents than anything else, at H&W there are high speed trains hurtling through creating considerable turbulence with passengers waiting for LO/LU services on the adjacent platform.

Bletchleyite · 26 Oct 2017

Sussex Guy said:
I think they are more to prevent accidents than anything else, at H&W there are high speed trains hurtling through creating considerable turbulence with passengers waiting for LO/LU services on the adjacent platform.

No, anti-suicide is the main purpose, trains run at 125mph through occupied platforms all over the place (well, the WCML and GWML). The psychological barrier sounds like it wouldn't work but it has been proven by a reduction in suicides at locations where they are fitted.

tsr · 26 Oct 2017

Sussex Guy said:
I think they are more to prevent accidents than anything else, at H&W there are high speed trains hurtling through creating considerable turbulence with passengers waiting for LO/LU services on the adjacent platform.

Definitely an anti-suicide measure, as posted above. Other seemingly unlikely methods which can disrupt the thought patterns leading to suicides include blue lighting (tried on the Brighton Mainline with good results) and blue painted markings on platforms, signage offering different Samaritans phone numbers which a potential caller might not have tried previously, gates at platform ends, behavioural tracking software on CCTV, and much more.

The side effects for safety of people who don't hold suicidal thoughts are admirable, obviously, but there aren't normally any requirements to segregate passengers completely from higher speed trains on "classic" lines (there are different requirements for platform markings and suchlike, but no complete separation). High speed services on dedicated HS routes - HS1, as it currently stands - would be kept away from the public.

CharlieSpotted · 26 Oct 2017

Qwerty133 said:
At least London Midland's twitter team don't have to deal with any more of the disruption from this as they've gone home for the day.

It really does feel like they've just given up... not just yesterday, but in general.

On the issue of communication at Euston, I read a piece earlier (sorry, no link as for some reason it's not in my browser history) which reported a fire alarm activation in the middle of all this, with the concourse packed at Euston. Reports of customers being told to leave as the station was closing, then as they got outside, being told to go back in. People told that the reason was the fire alarm had been activated, and people being told it was due to overcrowding. Sounds like a bit of a mess, to say the least.

Edit:

Here's a link:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...h-severe-delays-amid-reports-of-a3668241.html

Bletchleyite · 26 Oct 2017

That might explain the reason the Tube non-stopped for a bit.

DarloRich · 26 Oct 2017

Bletchleyite said:
As per my post. The psychological barrier of "being somewhere you shouldn't" and someone being able to see that someone is where they shouldn't be and say something about it is significant. They have been proven to reduce railway suicides significantly (you'll never stop them completely) and therefore the high cost of installing them is considered good value.

Most people who are considering suicide have doubts. Adding one more doubt, even a minor one, into the chain is very often enough to stop it.

The ones on P1 at Bletchley (down fast) don't even *have* locks, they are just sprung gates. But if you're the wrong side of them when no train is due to stop on that platform and odds on someone will see that something is amiss. See it, say it......

Correct - the physiological barrier has been shown to work. You may have seen the very wide hatched areas on some platforms such as Northallerton. Even that is an effective barrier according to the research.

It is about turning someone back, even at the last moment. The experts here may scoff but it does work. Of course, nothing can be 100% effective but if it turns people away then it is worth doing.

boxy321 · 26 Oct 2017

I was sat on the VT 17:10 at New St when the delay announcement was made on board. We were advised to get the Coventry LM stopper as it was definitely going to be moving in a few minutes. Cue about 1,000 people piling up the stairs and over. In actual fact the Pendolino overtook us at International and got there a few minutes before we did. I imagine MK was gridlocked by then.

As I left Coventry another Pendolino arrived on P2, which I believe was then cancelled. I presume these trains were allowed to get this far since the New St platforms were rapidly filling up with workers and half-term shoppers.

I do wonder what the future HS2 related changes at Coventry will mean for passengers. Currently, if one single service is cancelled out of the 7 per hour, the next one is always rammed. It is amazing how this once sleepy station has got so busy throughout the day over the last few years. Routing crappy XC stuff through will add options but decrease capacity for the proper trains.

DarloRich · 26 Oct 2017

The good thing last night was the majority of trains were held in platforms.

700007 · 26 Oct 2017

Harrow & Wealdstone has been my local station numerous times over the last few years - unfortunately it's not the first time nor will it be the last that deadly incidents like this has happened. Stories like this at this station are all too familiar to me....Although it's not clear whether this was accidental, a suicide or a brawl of some sort from what I've seen online - a lot of stuff happens at this station which results in fatalities and deaths. No surprise that it was platform 3 involved in this incident as very often it quite often is.

The station a few years ago was one of the most popular (because it was one of the easiest) along the southern section of the WCML to commit suicide and people often jumped in front of trains going 100-125mph on platforms 3 and 4, not that I want to go into details but you do often hear gruesome sounds and see gruesome sights there if you're a regular at the station. It was only in 2012 or 2013 I think that they installed a gates to the fast platforms as trains usually aren't anticipated to call there - sometimes there is the odd platform alteration where a London Midland service will be diverted (probably from Bourne End) onto the fast lines either during times of disruption or on some quieter Sunday workings, but staff do sometimes forget to close it straight after which means a passenger could easily access the platform and take their lives.

Despite the presence of the gates, some people do still jump it - it's not the safest area, Harrow & Wealdstone, especially lately it's taken a turn for the worst - I've heard all sorts and witnessed some graphic stories that results in fatalities or death there. Not pretty. Although now that the gates are there, it's also becoming more common that incidents are happening on the slower lines (platforms 5 & 6) as obviously they're still open (as London Midland and Southern services stop there) - passing trains such as the Milton Keynes Central LM service still go past there at quite some speed.

Sorry if the detail was a bit gross for you but I thought it might help add more context to the incident as a former local.

ag51ruk · 26 Oct 2017

DarloRich said:
not with all 6 platforms at MK full! Not with all of the evening freights ( and several light locos) blocking the line. Also what do you do with all the passengers who de train at MK? Where are they going? How are thye getting there. MK was a total zoo in anty event with all of the evening commuters milling about

I'm not suggesting that they should send London passengers from the north to MK - from Manchester, they normally direct people to either Leeds or Sheffield for connection via VTEC or MML. But Virgin have encouraged a lot of local travel in the north west (Manchester - Crewe, Manchester - Stoke) by selling VT only tickets, and the alternative trains from Manchester are 3 coach units that are already full and standing at that time. There are also usually lots of people travelling between the North West and MK - they don't have many alternatives once Virgin have given up.

I appreciate the difficulties of platforming and trains/crew being in the wrong place, but it really shouldn't be impossible to send a Manchester crewed Pendolino once an hour down to Mk and back.

Bletchleyite · 26 Oct 2017

To some extent, though, if the train is running through to MK people will stay on and see what happens. That causes confusion where you have a bustitution on a line A-B-C-D where the train is running A-B-C but the bus runs direct B-D due to road layout. You tend to end up with passengers at C with nowhere to go but back.

That said they did turn some trains at MKC, one of the Glasgow via Brums did at least as a friend was on it.

Mag_seven · 26 Oct 2017

i

700007 said:
Harrow & Wealdstone has been my local station numerous times over the last few years - unfortunately it's not the first time nor will it be the last that deadly incidents like this has happened. Stories like this at this station are all too familiar to me....Although it's not clear whether this was accidental, a suicide or a brawl of some sort from what I've seen online - a lot of stuff happens at this station which results in fatalities and deaths. No surprise that it was platform 3 involved in this incident as very often it quite often is.

The station a few years ago was one of the most popular (because it was one of the easiest) along the southern section of the WCML to commit suicide and people often jumped in front of trains going 100-125mph on platforms 3 and 4, not that I want to go into details but you do often hear gruesome sounds and see gruesome sights there if you're a regular at the station. It was only in 2012 or 2013 I think that they installed a gates to the fast platforms as trains usually aren't anticipated to call there - sometimes there is the odd platform alteration where a London Midland service will be diverted (probably from Bourne End) onto the fast lines either during times of disruption or on some quieter Sunday workings, but staff do sometimes forget to close it straight after which means a passenger could easily access the platform and take their lives.

Despite the presence of the gates, some people do still jump it - it's not the safest area, Harrow & Wealdstone, especially lately it's taken a turn for the worst - I've heard all sorts and witnessed some graphic stories that results in fatalities or death there. Not pretty. Although now that the gates are there, it's also becoming more common that incidents are happening on the slower lines (platforms 5 & 6) as obviously they're still open (as London Midland and Southern services stop there) - passing trains such as the Milton Keynes Central LM service still go past there at quite some speed.

Sorry if the detail was a bit gross for you but I thought it might help add more context to the incident as a former local.

Its really sad that people choose to end their lives at Harrow given the events of October 1952.

DarloRich · 26 Oct 2017

ag51ruk said:
I'm not suggesting that they should send London passengers from the north to MK - from Manchester, they normally direct people to either Leeds or Sheffield for connection via VTEC or MML.

but lots of those London passengers are going to stay on the Virgin train and chance it adding to the already vast congestion at MK.

What they DO need to get better at is working together, moving passengers and agreeing cross acceptance asap - trains that can work back north should do so but with extra stops added to help shift people. There were a couple of trains turned at MK ( Edinburgh and a Chester) and they should have been asked to stop at principle stations ( Rugby, Nuneaton Tamworth etc) to get as many people as possible away from the station. More staff on the ground would really help in controlling the crowds as would better communications. The 1813 Southern was shown as cancelled until about 1 minute before departure and it left without being announced. It was only by taking an educated guess that I made the train.

ag51ruk said:
But Virgin have encouraged a lot of local travel in the north west (Manchester - Crewe, Manchester - Stoke) by selling VT only tickets, and the alternative trains from Manchester are 3 coach units that are already full and standing at that time. There are also usually lots of people travelling between the North West and MK - they don't have many alternatives once Virgin have given up.

what does this have to do with your point? seems like a moan about something unrelated

ag51ruk said:
I appreciate the difficulties of platforming and trains/crew being in the wrong place, but it really shouldn't be impossible to send a Manchester crewed Pendolino once an hour down to Mk and back.

It shouldn't, once they develop the hurdling train

Take a look at any of the signalling diagram platforms during this kind of disruption and count the number of trains jammed up on the line. They have to be moved before your one and hour train can run. The emphasis is on restoration of service as close to normal patterns as soon as possible rather than chucking loads of extras into and already congested and confused environment.

Mag_seven said:
Its really sad that people choose to end their lives

Fixed that for you.

Incident at Harrow & Wealdstone 25/10/17

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