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Diverted trains passing crowded platforms at speed

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SPADTrap

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In the incident I related at the start of the thread, I was stood at where carriage 5 of 8 would stop (at the north end of the platform) from which the train approached, behind the person standing adjacent to but still behind the yellow line. Because as previously mentioned, the platform was very crowded I couldn't see very far along the platform to either left or right. I did know a train was approaching, as I have learned which track circuit boundary triggers the relevant approaching announcement on the station Passenger Information System. Because the vast majority of movements stop, this set my normal expectation for the time that would elapse before train's arrival. Having heard that the, "approaching train is not scheduled to stop at this station" and being an interested railway industry worker, I stood on tip-toe and to see what was approaching and, much sooner than even I expected, I could see just the roof of the train approaching at speed.

Given that most of the passengers next to me were probably not interested railway workers, some with headphones on or at least looking at smart phones and given the announcement is fairly low key and did not suggest that the train would pass at speed and given that until the visual message only changed (at the same time as the announcement) from the 08:25 London King's Cross is expected at 08:59 to stand clear very shortly before the train actually passing at 08:57:30, the answer in this case was clearly very surprised in quite a few cases. They were clearly not aware of it until it reached them.

Again my point wasn't specifically about the yellow line. I certainly couldn't see people standing beyond it (although clearly a few do from time to time). It is painted about a metre back from the platform at this location.

The speed of the passing train clearly caused those around me to feel they were in an uncomfortable or unsafe position that they would prefer not to be in. They might have sought to stand in a safer position if the horn had been sounded and / or the station PA was clearer in indicating that the train would pass at speed. It is important to distinguish between inadviseable behaviour of passengers being foolish enough to stand beyond the line, even where such things are a frequent occurrence on the one hand and untypical situations such as this on the other. One of the supervisors at WGC in particular berates anyone doing this with the station PA or simply by shouting! However, in this case many more passengers than even a normal peak loading were on the platform as the expected train was to be the first towards London after a two hour interruption to the peak service.

I do know that the slow lines through Welwyn Garden City are used by freight and ECS workings, but in my experience of these 40 to 50 mph (as was the case for the two following trains) and sounding the horn on approach is normal. Freight and ECS are of course kept away from the busiest times in the busiest direction when the capacity for passenger services is most required. This means that a high proportion of passengers will rarely see such a train pass. Whether we like it or not, our industry's passengers are conditioned by what they normally encounter and the principles of railway safety management require that this is taken account, such that the risk is mitigated to the level of 'as low as reasonably practicable'

I totally understand but why can't people just be on guard when near the railway rather than lost in phones/headphones? In a similar vein to people using foot crossings, there is a frustratingly common behaviour of cross first and look at the same time which doesn't fair well when you realise a train is coming and before you can stop yourself you are on the crossing in its way. I've had terrible days where exactly this has happened with fatal consequences. Stop and think, if you're in a crowd near a railway even on a platform then be aware, it may just stop you losing your balance when a train passes at speed and save yourself some pain. I know WGC very very well having worked there in the past. That supervisor shouts at people because he too has seen the consequences of when it goes wrong. I guess human behaviour comes into it but that is no good when you're dead/injured, or you've jumped out your skin and spilled your morning drink over youself :)

If you're regular GN-er you'll probably have seen the 'Plasmoors' pass through a platform at line speed - that is a train that could blow you out of the waiting room! :lol:
 
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rebmcr

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I think most do take care, but humanity is such that there will always be those who don't think.
 

delt1c

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Why in the UK do so many peoiple expect others to take responsibility for their safety. we should take responsibility for our safety.. Surely there is enough space opn the platform ton be able to stand back and common sense should prevaile
 

HarleyDavidson

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Why in the UK do so many peoiple expect others to take responsibility for their safety. we should take responsibility for our safety.. Surely there is enough space opn the platform ton be able to stand back and common sense should prevaile

Sorry, you're like me in that we use common sense. Today's generations want to be wrapped up in cotton wool & their backsides wiped for the price of their ticket! :rolleyes:
 

delt1c

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Sorry, you're like me in that we use common sense. Today's generations want to be wrapped up in cotton wool & their backsides wiped for the price of their ticket! :rolleyes:
and when you wipe your backside with the ticket what is left sticking to the paper
 

Antman

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Any sort of timetable would be decimated if trains had to purposely slow down every station they were passing through.

I don't think anybody has suggested that should happen?
 

delt1c

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I don't think anybody has suggested that should happen?
i think the origonal poster was suggesting this. we could always discard the timetable and slow to walking space through all stations.
 

4141

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i think the origonal poster was suggesting this. we could always discard the timetable and slow to walking space through all stations.
...and a person could be delegated to walk in front carrying a red flag...:lol:
 

swt_passenger

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I must say I'm surprised at this given there are many platforms in the southeast which have trains passing through at speeds in excess of 90 mph, with absolutely no protection other than the usual yellow lines and warning posters.

Above 100 mph passing speed requires appropriate permanent warning signs that would not be required at 90 - 100 mph. That might explain additional precautions needed during 110% speed trials.
 

notverydeep

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I am certainly sympathetic to those in the thread who say that people on the rail network should take responsibility for their own safety. What ever protections are put in place by others, this is still common sense. However, the regulatory environment in which we work obliges us (the rail industry) to assess what people will actually do on the basis of evidence. We then are obliged to mitigate these risks to the level of 'As Low As Reasonably Practicable' (ALARP).

I have read a large number of RAIB reports and am struck by how often, the accidental injury or death of a passenger or crossing user came about because of incomplete or incorrect understanding of the hazards, fatigue and / or poor concentration rather than recklessness, although of course there is some of that. There is clearly a trade off between the degree of protection and reducing the usefulness of the service. So I wouldn't suggest blanket speed restrictions for these locations, but I would suggest that trains away from their booked routes use the horn to warn passengers if they approach a congested platform (especially during disruption) and I would suggest that PA warnings are more explicit about a train passing at speed where this may not be the norm (even if it is the norm at quieter times of day).

Taking this last point further I would note that as a railway worker, I have a reasonable understanding of the services across the day on the routes I use. However, many passengers make 450 commuting journeys a year, but rarely visiting their station in the late evening or at a weekend when the same platform might be served in a different way. The number of freights through Welwyn GC is low by comparison to say the WCML. I am interested and stop to watch one if I see it, but this doesn't happen very often at the times of my journey to and from work. Humans do not naturally plan well for low probability hazards. An analogy for the drivers on the thread might be dealing with a train fault that you know you were trained about, but when six years later it actually occurred for the first time in your time on the front, it was hard to recall exactly what action you should take and the incident ended up taking longer than expected, this is normal for any human - but you often end up getting grief about it from your management chain!
 

Bletchleyite

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There is nothing you can practically do...

Would this help?

440px-Hamburg_berlin_track_platform_barriers.jpg

(DB platform edge fence)
 

tsr

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I must say I'm surprised at this given there are many platforms in the southeast which have trains passing through at speeds in excess of 90 mph, with absolutely no protection other than the usual yellow lines and warning posters.

Are the Gatwick platforms especially narrow?

Also, did 319s have a dispensation to run at 100mph on some parts of the BML?

Gatwick’s platforms are exceptionally narrow (for the linespeed) beside the escalators and also between a few of the support pillars and the platform edge.

Other parts of them are much more spacious - but these tend to be the bits not adjacent to exits or indeed short trains, and also the bits out in the open.

A lot of people bunch up beside the escalators and lifts towards the middle of the platforms. It is difficult to communicate the risks to tired and unfamiliar, and often non-English-speaking, passengers. They then end up squeezed between the yellow and white lines as the fast trains pass through, because any such trains will ideally be put ahead of trains which stop there for a couple of minutes.

As for the 319s, they did have dispensation for 100mph running in a couple of places, chiefly just south of Three Bridges station.
 

tsr

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No. Due to similar reasons as platform edge doors.

They’re much better than doors, as people can make their way alongside a stationary train to the gap in the fence, rather than the doors being almost flush with the side of the train, which would mean they would definitely be in the wrong place if traction did vary.

However, if this was now implemented in the UK, I doubt anyone would be patient enough to wait for the train to stop (or maybe even arrive) before filtering through the barriers. You also wouldn’t be able to dispatch the thing until everyone was platform side of the barriers. This could take extra time. Lastly, luggage and wheelchair ramps could be seriously hindered.
 

221129

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They’re much better than doors, as people can make their way alongside a stationary train to the gap in the fence, rather than the doors being almost flush with the side of the train, which would mean they would definitely be in the wrong place if traction did vary.

However, if this was now implemented in the UK, I doubt anyone would be patient enough to wait for the train to stop (or maybe even arrive) before filtering through the barriers. You also wouldn’t be able to dispatch the thing until everyone was platform side of the barriers. This could take extra time. Lastly, luggage and wheelchair ramps could be seriously hindered.

Remembering the sort of stations we are talking about where there are likely to be large crowds of commuters I can't see large amounts ofpeople safely moving through those spaces. It would cause so many more problems than it would solve.
 

SPADTrap

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A lot of people bunch up beside the escalators and lifts towards the middle of the platforms. It is difficult to communicate the risks to tired and unfamiliar, and often non-English-speaking, passengers. They then end up squeezed between the yellow and white lines as the fast trains pass through, because any such trains will ideally be put ahead of trains which stop there for a couple of minutes.

This is what I'll never understand, how hard can it be not to do that and to 'hang back' as such? You won't be waiting any longer.
 

neilb62

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Nothing to see here, move along.... the yellow line is there for a reason, as the bloke who bounced off the front corner of my 87 a few years ago at MKC found out.
 

Antman

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Nothing to see here, move along.... the yellow line is there for a reason, as the bloke who bounced off the front corner of my 87 a few years ago at MKC found out.

The yellow line isn't the issue!
 

bramling

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Could not agree more - stand behind the yellow line - end of.

At my local station the yellow line is approachimg a metre back from the edge. It was moved back when tactile paving was fitted. In the morning peak people who stand behind the yellow line will be guaranteed to be shoved out of the way and be last on, so no one observes the line.
 

SPADTrap

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At my local station the yellow line is approachimg a metre back from the edge. It was moved back when tactile paving was fitted. In the morning peak people who stand behind the yellow line will be guaranteed to be shoved out of the way and be last on, so no one observes the line.

I'm feeling the word 'idiots' again :frown:
 

Antman

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Is there a specific offence that could be prosecuted for that, so the BTP could do a few blitzes with heavy publicity and people might behave? On the civilised south WCML people manage it most of the time.

I really don't see that being a viable option.
 
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