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Night shift fatigue (RAIB report)

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pitdiver

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I would also like to comment on the notion that permanent earlies is a preposterous idea. My wife works permanent earlies not in the railway industry. She says it's good as she finishes by two so that rest of the day is hers. On top of that she hasn't got to sit around all day waiting to go work at say 1500hrs.
 
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Sunset route

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Why would working only earlies be preposterous? It's what happens in many other industries.

What extra costs would be involved? And what price safety?

You seem to be confirming what many of us suspected that staff are happy to comply with the excessive hours for the financial reward? Personally I think a 40 hour week, with occasional voluntary overtime, should be enough for anybody.

A couple of points 1) The two things most (not all) staff find fatiguing are working early shift and or shift rotation, there would be very little or no volunteers for permanent early shift.

2) There are different levels of voluntary overtime because the other problem is that the railway very rarely closes a signalbox/panel or workstation out, someone somewhere will be working overtime that they rather wouldn’t as the company will try very hard to find the weakest personality to convince to cover the job.

Elsewhere in this forum there was plenty of talk from people applying for the 11 vacancies at TBASC so that’s at least 11 vacancy gaps in someone’s roster that needs to be covered as well as rostered leave and sickness. The railway still runs on overtime whether the staff want it or not, which all adds up to greater fatigue along with how good or bad the current base roster is at spreading out the fatigue. It is something you just have to get used to and not necessarily like.
 

pitdiver

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I always shift rotation tiring particularly when nights were involved. I was one of those who preferred earlies but each to their own.
 

74A

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I would also like to comment on the notion that permanent earlies is a preposterous idea. My wife works permanent earlies not in the railway industry. She says it's good as she finishes by two so that rest of the day is hers. On top of that she hasn't got to sit around all day waiting to go work at say 1500hrs.

Yes but in the railway it means that someone has to work permanent lates or permanent nights. Railway staff will not accept that.
 

Economist

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I don't mind earlies since my body clock has got used to them, the swing from lates to permanent earlies, even with a couple of rest days in between, is rather nasty. Much for difficult to pull a sleep pattern forwards than to push it backwards, a bit like a lot of people find travelling east much more difficult than travelling west.
 
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Mag_seven

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I did a couple of night shifts during my time on the railway which was quite fun, but i can imagine being on permanent nights could get quite depressing after a while?
 

Sunset route

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I'd happily do permanent lates.

For every morning person there's a night person, indeed. I'd far rather do any fixed permanent shift (nights included) than rotate in the way railway staff currently do.

I did a spell where I worked nearly permanent night shift voluntary for the best part of the year, I had a lovely settled body clock and eating habits, the only problem was I didn’t get to much in the way of my family and friends during that period and in the end become a very lonely isolated existence, so won’t be up to doing that again in a hurry.
 

alxndr

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There are different levels of voluntary overtime because the other problem is that the railway very rarely closes a signalbox/panel or workstation out, someone somewhere will be working overtime that they rather wouldn’t as the company will try very hard to find the weakest personality to convince to cover the job.

Elsewhere in this forum there was plenty of talk from people applying for the 11 vacancies at TBASC so that’s at least 11 vacancy gaps in someone’s roster that needs to be covered as well as rostered leave and sickness. The railway still runs on overtime whether the staff want it or not, which all adds up to greater fatigue along with how good or bad the current base roster is at spreading out the fatigue. It is something you just have to get used to and not necessarily like.

Another point to consider when thinking about the the "railway running on overtime" in relation to 8hr shifts over 12hr shifts is that unless there are more people employed there will be less people available to cover with an 8hr roster. As there's an extra shift each day that's an extra person already tied up and unavailable to potentially provide cover. Plus, with there naturally being less rest days on an 8hr roster people are less likely to want to "use them up" by doing overtime.

Depending on the job role, it's possible that there can be significantly less productive time on 8hr shifts when contracted rest break entitlements and any need to travel from the booking on point to work is taken into account.

8hr shifts may be (on paper at least) less fatiguing than 12s, but they're not necessarily all that practical or cost-effective.
 

Antman

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I would also like to comment on the notion that permanent earlies is a preposterous idea. My wife works permanent earlies not in the railway industry. She says it's good as she finishes by two so that rest of the day is hers. On top of that she hasn't got to sit around all day waiting to go work at say 1500hrs.

Exactly, I know 24 hour distribution centres where staff are on permanent early, late or night shift with changeovers at 06.00, 14.00 and 22.00. Surely that's better for all concerned?
 

Llanigraham

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Because frankly working one permanent 8 hour fixed period shift in a signal box is not practical.

The extra costs are for the extra signaller that will be required to provide cover.

So you do not agree that having your traveling expenses increased by one third and with decreased time off with families does not mean pay should be increased?

And I fail to see the relevance of your 40 hour week comment.

Do you work on the railway?
Do you have any experience of working in a signal box?
 

Antman

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Because frankly working one permanent 8 hour fixed period shift in a signal box is not practical.

The extra costs are for the extra signaller that will be required to provide cover.

So you do not agree that having your traveling expenses increased by one third and with decreased time off with families does not mean pay should be increased?

And I fail to see the relevance of your 40 hour week comment.

Do you work on the railway?
Do you have any experience of working in a signal box?

Decreased time off with families? I'd have thought working less hours would mean the exact opposite?
 

bramling

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Because frankly working one permanent 8 hour fixed period shift in a signal box is not practical.

The extra costs are for the extra signaller that will be required to provide cover.

So you do not agree that having your traveling expenses increased by one third and with decreased time off with families does not mean pay should be increased?

And I fail to see the relevance of your 40 hour week comment.

Do you work on the railway?
Do you have any experience of working in a signal box?

The main reason 12h shifts happen is because the employees themselves like them because it gives more days off, especially weekends, and less travelling to work.

Personally, I’m not a fan at all. There’s more chance of coming to work not well rested with only 12 hours in between, as well as more likelihood of not being able to eat at set times, more chance of being disturbed whilst trying to sleep during the day, more chance of having to travel in at a busy time (eg 1800 pm a Saturday), etc. It may be ok in a rural signal box where people can bank on (or, more accurately, hope) the shift being quiet, but when busy safety-critical roles are involved it’s not a good position to be in.

The industry doesn’t really like it, but tolerates it because it keeps the troops happy, and no one can be bothered to have the argument. It’s all very well enjoying the extra days off, but there are people who have ended up with far more days off than they planned for, when they’ve made a balls-up through being tired and ended up losing their job. None of this is new though, Hawes Junction is an example of how mistakes can happen very easily.
 

Bromley boy

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Decreased time off with families? I'd have thought working less hours would mean the exact opposite?

Less hours = more shifts, though, including travelling to and from work. This can certainly mean less time spent with loved ones.

The same thing has happened with the drivers’ 4 day week. Shifts are longer but this is (more than) balanced out by only having four of them per week.

I reckon four days a week is a good trade off. I’m not sure I’d be happy working 12 hour shifts, even if it did mean fewer days worked each week.
 

Bletchleyite

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I would not work 12 hour shifts full stop. When occasionally I have to work a day that long (very occasionally) because the proverbial has hit the fan, I am not performing at all well by the end.

7-8 hours work with a good hour's break (a proper break, not eating your butties at your desk while browsing the Web) will get you the best performance, generally. I could *cope* with 10, but 12 is excessive.
 

Antman

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I would not work 12 hour shifts full stop. When occasionally I have to work a day that long (very occasionally) because the proverbial has hit the fan, I am not performing at all well by the end.

7-8 hours work with a good hour's break (a proper break, not eating your butties at your desk while browsing the Web) will get you the best performance, generally. I could *cope* with 10, but 12 is excessive.

I agree, I think working 12 hours is ok in exceptional circumstances but I find it quite alarming that 12 hour shifts are almost seen as the norm.
 

axlecounter

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Saturday night I finish at 2205. I will get home around 2300 on Saturday night. I am off Sunday and then start at 0308 Monday morning. My alarm will be set for 01.45. so I will have around 26 hours or so "off". These are the killers in my opinion. The 3 am starts I can cope with as they are generally speaking not bad in terms of length and work content. I would certainly rather do them than 6am starts that may be close to 10 hours finishing as the rush hour starts meaning a battle to get home. But the combination of late finish, day "off", and early start really do mess you up
That must be a killer. Luckily here (not in the UK) we have inherithed an old, very specific law regarding railway (and some other) staff. For example it states that a single rest day must be at least made of 24 hours, and must be preceded from a "rest shift", which is 12h off. In your example it would mean that on Monday you could not start before 10a.m. Hence, any day including at least part of a shift cannot be considered a rest day (lates finishing at dawn, etc...)

I would not work 12 hour shifts full stop. When occasionally I have to work a day that long (very occasionally) because the proverbial has hit the fan, I am not performing at all well by the end.

7-8 hours work with a good hour's break (a proper break, not eating your butties at your desk while browsing the Web) will get you the best performance, generally. I could *cope* with 10, but 12 is excessive.
I agree too. 12 hours at work are too much, regardless of what you're doing. I don't quite understand that logic of working longer to have more days off. I much rather prefer to have a decent everyday life than to have a few extra days off every now and then or similar...

But that reminds me of that ferry staff guy to whom I asked how were their shifts and he said "Shifts? I've been away from home for 4 months now!" :oops:
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Talk of permanent hours reminded me that studies have shown that working the same turn repeatedly leads to loss of concentration and potentially dangerous assumptions being made. I imagine this is relevant to drivers in particular and the risk of misreading signals etc. Presumably a factor in why we have links and rotating shift patterns?
 

bramling

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I agree, I think working 12 hours is ok in exceptional circumstances but I find it quite alarming that 12 hour shifts are almost seen as the norm.

There is a culture within the industry, especially in signalling, control and response roles, which has been allowed to develop where 12h shifts are acceptable. It does seem to be the case of greed at the simplest level - wanting more days off. Personally I don’t see the value - what’s the point in having more days off if you’re tired out?

Can’t also help but notice, from experience, that the ones most in favour of 12h hour shifts tend to be the worst performers when at work and have more time off sick...
 

EM2

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Personally, it's the shift patterns that I find cause problems, not the shifts themselves.
In another industry, I used to do a ten-hour day shift, always three on three off. So one week you did thirty hours, the next week forty hours, thus balancing out at a thirty-five hour week. Although the shift was long (and often boring), the pattern meant that I never got too tired.
Nowadays, I do eight hour shifts (twelve at the weekends) but of varying lengths and varying rest days afterwards. I find this much more tiring and much more difficult to adjust. Some of this could be down to age... :D
 

bramling

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Personally, it's the shift patterns that I find cause problems, not the shifts themselves.
In another industry, I used to do a ten-hour day shift, always three on three off. So one week you did thirty hours, the next week forty hours, thus balancing out at a thirty-five hour week. Although the shift was long (and often boring), the pattern meant that I never got too tired.
Nowadays, I do eight hour shifts (twelve at the weekends) but of varying lengths and varying rest days afterwards. I find this much more tiring and much more difficult to adjust. Some of this could be down to age... :D

I know somewhere where the shift pattern for nights goes something like:

Friday 2030-0630
Saturday 1830-0630
Sunday 1830-0630
Monday 2030-0630
Tuesday 2030-0630
Wednesday 2030-0630
Thursday 2030-0630

The first step was bringing in 12 hours at weekends so as to give an extra weekend off. Then the start time for the remaining five days was brought forward by two hours so the early and late turn can go home an hour earlier each, to give “more time with the family”. Needless to say the night shift has an unofficial roster of one man covering multiple desks so that the others can get their head down. I find it amazing that this arrangement is tolerated, but the management are fully aware of what goes on and turn a blind eye.
 

nom de guerre

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Well, as a signaller with experience of 8 and 12-hour rosters, I much prefer the latter - to the extent that I don't think I could return to '8s' now.

It isn't just that a typical 8h roster at a single-manned 'box requires you to work more often; it's how those shifts are structured, with long runs of consecutive shifts during each 28-day cycle: seven successive earlies (including a 12-hour Sunday) and - the most fatiguing - working 13 days out of 14 on a lates/nights rotation (with the sole [twelfth] 'rest' day wasted reorienting your body clock after a week of nights). I look after myself, but I was always knackered by the end of both of those sequences.

'Twelves' are a breeze by comparison. Quieter, single-manned 'boxes have gaps between trains; and larger, more demanding (i.e. highly-graded) locations provide breaks. My place typically works two hours on, one hour off, so although my shifts are longer than an 8-hour roster, my time on duty isn't - and I get more days off. Noticeably less tiring, IMO - and that's before we get onto fuel savings etc.

I accept that people with longish commutes might initially be reluctant to move to, say, 14-hour working days, but several of my colleagues do just that and, to a man/woman, they would never go back to '8s'. I'd wager any straw poll of signallers who've worked both rosters would produce a similar result. An increasing number of 8h 'boxes are moving to '12s', but I've yet to hear of a single location lobbying for the reverse - that must say something.

Re historical norms, my part of the country has traditionally been dominated by 8-hour rosters (often containing worse shifts than those mentioned above - 'Doubling Back', anyone?). 12-hour rosters have only begun to creep in relatively recently, and are still the exception.
 

Llanigraham

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Quite NdG, but it seems that a lot of people on here cannot accept that, and accuse us of "greed".
I wonder how many of those have actually experienced working in a signal box? Somehow I doubt many of them, and trying to compare our work to that of (say) a factory is ridiculous.

And for all those who want to "ban" 12 hour shifts, I hope you realise that we will need lots more nurses, doctors, police, fire, ambulance, and others if it was implemented. I hope their pockets are deep!!
 

Sunset route

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So we have drivers booking on and off at extremely early and very late in the day with less than satisfactory breaks.

And signallers on a mix of rotating 8 or 12 shifts some without breaks.

Not sure what pressures and fatigue the S&T or Pway are under as I don’t have any current contacts within those grades.

Then the report into the Cardiff East incident describing blatant long hour hours and continuous days worked and breaking virtually every limit on working hours since the “Clapham disaster”. Plus the drivers fatigue incident at Kings cross that started this thread.

This doesn’t really show a safety critical industry in a good light.
 

Pumbaa

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Where I am, we recently undertook an exercise aimed at addressing fatigue in the workplace. We proposed more balanced, shorter shifts, with better rotations, more controls around doubling back on shift times, clearer rules on how the start times and end times should progress, patterns of RDs, and better opportunities for flexible working/permanent shifts. Part of this was also increasing headcount and reducing reliance on RDW. It was a really thorough piece of work, and (IMO) had loads of benefits for both management and front-line. If you package it all properly, and really draw out the benefits, e.g. less knackered = fewer incidents, less doubling-back = less sickness, properly bunched RDs = happier people, higher base and better time management because of better controls = reduction in reliance of RDW, it even washed its face.

I think everyone agreed that it addressed the core aim of tackling fatigue and making sure that people weren't working 6 day weeks all the time. It was rejected though - partly because the Reps didn't want to upset their members who were earning a packet on OT, and partly because it would have resulted in fewer RDs. The next step was to propose a reduction in working week in return for some productivity elsewhere, but that hit the buffers too.

I suppose I'm trying to exemplify that it's difficult to propose any major changes that both sides will be happy with, and it isn't as simple as one side being at fault.

I agree with some above posters that it'll take a major incident to get the industry to re-look at fatigue, establishment, and working conditions.
 

nom de guerre

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There is a culture within the industry, especially in signalling, control and response roles, which has been allowed to develop where 12h shifts are acceptable. It does seem to be the case of greed at the simplest level - wanting more days off. Personally I don’t see the value - what’s the point in having more days off if you’re tired out?

Can’t also help but notice, from experience, that the ones most in favour of 12h hour shifts tend to be the worst performers when at work and have more time off sick...

Forgive me, but that seems to be a rather sweeping statement based on little other than limited anecdotal 'evidence'.

Does that mean the dozens-strong complement of signaller/SSMs at my location - who are uniformly in favour of a 12h roster - contains a higher proportion of poor performers and/or malingerers than an equivalently-sized 8h box? I rather doubt it...

You also appear to be overlooking the fact that in many cases - particularly at VDU-equipped 'boxes - the 12h roster has been imposed by NR. How can signallers be condemned as avaricious and/or workshy for a decision they did not make?

I'm also slightly mystified why you seem keen to equate decreased fatigue with "greed" - why is it negative, in a safety-critical industry, to have a better-rested workforce? - and, indeed, why you feel the need to employ such emotive vocabulary at all. Perhaps I'm reaching here, but unsubstantiated jibes about "greed" and poor performance carry the whiff of sour grapes.

I repeat: in the experience of myself and 99% of signalling colleagues with the same background, a 12-hour roster at a multi-manned 'box is noticeably less tiring than an 8-hour, single-manned equivalent. It really is that simple.

"Greedy", or simply 'safer'?
 
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Llanigraham

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I wonder exactly what experience Bramling has of working any 12 (or 8) hour modern mechanical or electrical signal box?
 

bramling

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I wonder exactly what experience Bramling has of working any 12 (or 8) hour modern mechanical or electrical signal box?

Well, you might be surprised. The example I gave above, which I have worked in times past, has four desks and during peak hours between them will be handling, IIRC, something in the region of 95 trains.
 
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