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Staffordshire Bus News

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TheGrandWazoo

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I have no doubt that there are problems with adjacent areas. In fact, I think this might be part of the reason why some of the bus routes are not more frequent. I have had a brief look at some services in Teesside and frequent services during the day becoming hourly in the evening seems to be the order of the day.

As regards the evening provision in Hartlepool, we might have to agree to differ on this but I would say that a half hourly frequency for a town service is not bad and three of the five Stagecoach services offer that (and appear to compare well with similar size towns, including the above mentioned Worcester). The 3/ 3A runs close to other routes for much (but admittedly not all of its route). The 1 is the route that misses out - perhaps partly because it enters Teesside. As far as Hartlepool is concerned it serves the 'small seaside resort' of Seaton Carew (population just over 6,000) by way of largely industrial areas then through more industrial areas and open fields before reaching Middlesbrough. Not really prime bus territory for evening travel. Seaton Carew also has a station (hourly evening train). At its other end it heads west to the West Park area, and this does seem to be poorly served. The Arriva evening service travels north close to areas served by the local Stagecoach routes (including the 3/3A). All of the Arriva services are interurban and quickly leave the Hartlepool area so I don't suppose the local council has any interest in subsidising bus travel on these routes (especially as there is a reasonable rail service from Sunderland and Middlesbrough, although last trains before 22:00 seem to be a bit mean).

Looking at the fleet list for the area, it does seem like Hartlepool appears to be near the end of queue when it comes to allocating new buses but that is probably because larger operators appear to prioritise larger (probably more profitable) conurbations so Tyneside seems to head the queue. However, my point was about bus frequency which I still think isn't bad. I suppose I just wanted to stick up for Hartlepool, which appears to always get a bad press. The final points on the bus industry are well made, I (too?) believe we are entering into a public transport winter, and a harsh one at that.

Just for avoidance of doubt... I do know Teesside pretty well. I know all too well the delights of the area; all too often shivering in the old Hartlepool bus station waiting for some knackered LH to take me to Stockton so I could get a bus to Darlington and the promise of attractive football :D In all seriousness, I think I wanted to illustrate that the cuts that Stoke/Staffs councils are making are similar to that experienced with the four Teesside councils - some core services will survive but others (and important links) are lost.

As with the Potteries, services generally are a shadow of what they were with the Stagecoach allocation in Hartlepool is half what it was twenty years ago; the Stockton allocation is down from 120 to nearer 75. Some of that is the carve up of territory to remove duplication/competition between Stagey and NEB as it was at the time before Arriva.

Evening services have been bolstered recently (as another poster has pointed out) in Hartlepool. Yes, there's an hourly Sapphire north of Hartlepool but if you knew the old pattern of 230/231/241/242/X5, you'd appreciate how much that has declined. Similarly, look at the other areas of Teesside and especially East Cleveland - it is very thin on the ground though R&EC Council do lay on a council minibus to provide some skeletal links that I neglected to mention - I think they thought Arriva were going to register more than they did. Stockton and Middlesbrough fair better but then again, the LAs do still support more services.

However, look at what there used to be and you will see the parallels. And yes, I agree all round - these are very tough times out there. The cavalcade of failed operators sadly illustrates this all too well
 
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Kuyoyo

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I think I have drawn a reasonable parallel - there are a lot of similarities in Teesside vs. Potteries.. I accept that there are some differences that I highlighted. There are always some differences anyway and there are significant ones in having two operators rather a dominant one, and the mismanagement of First and failure to invest over many years. Also, please don't think that I'm not speaking from experience. I too am an emigre of the North East, moved to Staffs in 2000.... just that I've moved again since.

However, I think you're misconstruing my comments - my point is that the Teesside fleets ARE much better and that is despite a low point of 2007 when the Teesside fleets would have been dominated by B10Ms (13 year old) for Stagecoach with some newer fleet such as ALX300s that were c.10 years old; Arriva had a raft of older fleet including knackered Metroriders and Vectas with even the newer vehicles being shocking Daf/Plaxton Prestiges. The difference is that the Teesside fleets (I exclude GNE as they are minimal) are much newer but that is a reflection on the mess that First got themselves in - overpaying for operators (Cawlett) rather than investing in new fleet and then the Laidlaw cock up. They never invested and later couldn't invest as they might.

The axing of local authority funding means that decisions have to be made. As you rightly say, the growth of Sunday trading is counteracted by the collapse in the evening trade and that may be why the cuts being seen now are disproportionately aimed at Sundays. In Teesside, Stockton and Middlesbrough do still provide some support; the other two LAs have all but ceased and hence why there are relatively few services and they are commercial. Hartlepool is a town of nearly 100k people - it gets two town services at night, one bus an hour north, and two an hour south to the main conurbation. Redcar and East Cleveland is 135k - it has three routes running at night! Whole tracts of territory don't see a bus after 6.30.

I would just like to kill a small myth here - Redcar and Cleveland Council still do provide supported services, just all bar one (the Monday to Saturday morning service 794, the only service to serve the village of Lazenby) are operated in-house by the Council's own fleet. Middlesbrough Council now support nothing - having withdrawn their last little bit of support last April to the long-standing South Circulars Stagecoach operated at the end as the 10A/11A. Stockton only have one supported service - the Wednesday and Friday service to Longnewton funded under the Community Bus scheme (the other such service was withdrawn during the Summer after 18 months). Everything operating on Teesside on a evening is now operated commercially.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I would just like to kill a small myth here - Redcar and Cleveland Council still do provide supported services, just all bar one (the Monday to Saturday morning service 794, the only service to serve the village of Lazenby) are operated in-house by the Council's own fleet. Middlesbrough Council now support nothing - having withdrawn their last little bit of support last April to the long-standing South Circulars Stagecoach operated at the end as the 10A/11A. Stockton only have one supported service - the Wednesday and Friday service to Longnewton funded under the Community Bus scheme (the other such service was withdrawn during the Summer after 18 months). Everything operating on Teesside on a evening is now operated commercially.

In defence, I didn’t say that R&C supported nothing but had all but given up - the levels are minimal compared to the previous support and the skeletal remains of the former 748, 781 et al are indeed covered by a council minibus. So wasn’t perpetuating that myth - sorry if I created any confusion!

I didn’t know Middlesbrough had pulled all funding though so thanks for clarifying that. Knew that they’d cut back majorly but didn’t know they’d stopped outright.
 
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Baxenden Bank

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Another service is to be withdrawn by First in The Potteries.

Service 97: Newcastle to Wolstanton Retail Park. This from 3 December rather than 26 November with all the other changes. No mention on the First website but appears on the Stoke-on-Trent City Council website (www.stokebus.info) and confirmed by the travel shop at Hanley this morning.

A single vehicle working which gets them down to a 100 bus off-peak requirement. Looks like 2018 will be the year we go below 100.

There's no stopping them now.....
 

James101

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Another service is to be withdrawn by First in The Potteries.

Service 97: Newcastle to Wolstanton Retail Park. This from 3 December rather than 26 November with all the other changes. No mention on the First website but appears on the Stoke-on-Trent City Council website (www.stokebus.info) and confirmed by the travel shop at Hanley this morning.

A single vehicle working which gets them down to a 100 bus off-peak requirement. Looks like 2018 will be the year we go below 100.

There's no stopping them now.....

We could start taking bets on the next round of cuts. My guess is:

3: Butt Lane journeys curtailed to Kidsgrove, perhaps awkwardly interworking with the 7

4: Wood Lane section cut out

6: Cut back to Meir, D&G given free reign in Weston Coyney.

8A: Withdrawn

12: Changed to Haney - Adderley Green only. Saxonfields & Meir Hay left to D&G, though if the suggestion of collusion is continued these areas are relegated to having just a Longton circular route akin to the 40, rather than competition via Bentilee.

72/A: Withdrawn - territory surrendered to D&G
 

Robertj21a

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Another service is to be withdrawn by First in The Potteries.

Service 97: Newcastle to Wolstanton Retail Park. This from 3 December rather than 26 November with all the other changes. No mention on the First website but appears on the Stoke-on-Trent City Council website (www.stokebus.info) and confirmed by the travel shop at Hanley this morning.

A single vehicle working which gets them down to a 100 bus off-peak requirement. Looks like 2018 will be the year we go below 100.

There's no stopping them now.....

Taking lessons from Northampton.
 

Baxenden Bank

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We could start taking bets on the next round of cuts. My guess is:

3: Butt Lane journeys curtailed to Kidsgrove, perhaps awkwardly interworking with the 7

4: Wood Lane section cut out

6: Cut back to Meir, D&G given free reign in Weston Coyney.

8A: Withdrawn

12: Changed to Haney - Adderley Green only. Saxonfields & Meir Hay left to D&G, though if the suggestion of collusion is continued these areas are relegated to having just a Longton circular route akin to the 40, rather than competition via Bentilee.

72/A: Withdrawn - territory surrendered to D&G

I wouldn't like to speculate - it may come true. As in 'be careful what you wish for'. But, the numbers of passengers travelling beyond Meir Park to Blythe Bridge is rather small (could be the extra 10 minutes in each direction compared to running direct?). Cut those out and then passenger numbers look thin between Meir and Meir Park. Cut those out and then passenger numbers look thin along the A50 and Uttoxeter Road between Meir and Longton. So a 6 every 10 (15?) minutes Hanley to Longton and every 20/30 minutes via Florence to Meir Square.

I had a repeat performance on the 6A on Thursday (school closing time). An old bucket, plated for 17 standing with one pram, a gaggle of school-kids at the front, half a dozen seats vacant at the rear, bus went straight past customers Longton through to Hanley. Perhaps nothing worse than standing at a bus stop and seeing a 'full' bus go past which is nothing of the sort.

I have no insider knowledge but First do seem reluctant to cede further territory, just cutting frequencies instead. Only Park Hall becomes unserved by First on 26 November and Wolstanton Retail Park on 3 December. Meir Hay drops from every 20 minutes to every hour. Saxonfields is already hourly. In fact, Adderley Green to Longton actually increases in frequency from four per hour to five per hour.
 

James101

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I wouldn't like to speculate - it may come true. As in 'be careful what you wish for'. But, the numbers of passengers travelling beyond Meir Park to Blythe Bridge is rather small (could be the extra 10 minutes in each direction compared to running direct?). Cut those out and then passenger numbers look thin between Meir and Meir Park. Cut those out and then passenger numbers look thin along the A50 and Uttoxeter Road between Meir and Longton. So a 6 every 10 (15?) minutes Hanley to Longton and every 20/30 minutes via Florence to Meir Square.

I had a repeat performance on the 6A on Thursday (school closing time). An old bucket, plated for 17 standing with one pram, a gaggle of school-kids at the front, half a dozen seats vacant at the rear, bus went straight past customers Longton through to Hanley. Perhaps nothing worse than standing at a bus stop and seeing a 'full' bus go past which is nothing of the sort.

I have no insider knowledge but First do seem reluctant to cede further territory, just cutting frequencies instead. Only Park Hall becomes unserved by First on 26 November and Wolstanton Retail Park on 3 December. Meir Hay drops from every 20 minutes to every hour. Saxonfields is already hourly. In fact, Adderley Green to Longton actually increases in frequency from four per hour to five per hour.

Your 6/A theory sounds disappointingly plausible. As for the 11, I think this change may be it’s downfall as a through route. It’s already quicker and more frequent for the good folk of Bentilee to change onto a 25 in Hanley to reach Stoke/Hospital/Newcastle and there isn’t much promise of Anchor Rd being great bus territory. So I revise my bet, 11 split to be Hanley Adderley Green only, every 15 mins and Longton - Newcastle every 30, departure times co-ordinated with the 22
 

Baxenden Bank

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Your 6/A theory sounds disappointingly plausible. As for the 11, I think this change may be it’s downfall as a through route. It’s already quicker and more frequent for the good folk of Bentilee to change onto a 25 in Hanley to reach Stoke/Hospital/Newcastle and there isn’t much promise of Anchor Rd being great bus territory. So I revise my bet, 11 split to be Hanley Adderley Green only, every 15 mins and Longton - Newcastle every 30, departure times co-ordinated with the 22
I'll suggest a further revision. Hanley - Adderley Green via Dawlish Drive at a reasonable frequency (10 or 15 mins). Dividy Road abandoned this time round (already forgot about that unserved area!), Beverley Drive abandoned next time round (will D & G step up to the mark and increase their frequency?). Extended from Adderley Green to Longton via Meir Hay, Saxonfields and possibly Anchor Road, each hourly. Depends how many people there are wanting to get from Bentilee to Longton. Longton - Stoke - Newcastle ceded to D & G, again, will D & G step up to the mark.

Meir - Longton - Stoke - Newcastle has been a problem for a long time. Heavily peaked commuter / student travel, fewer travellers off-peak, even fewer on Saturdays. The current thinking is to decide how many buses to put onto a route, and thin out the frequency at peak times when traffic congestion means slower journey times, rather than having a higher PVR putting extra resources in at busy times.
 

Thin man

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The next round of cuts will probably see no more use for the newcastle outstation (old depot) The 22 97 and 72 operate from there now. 97 gone on 3rd Dec. 72 a shadow of its former self. So if we are speculating dont be surprised to see the 22 go just for operational convenience.
 

Thin man

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Also D&G are starting some new journeys on the 14 between trentham lakes and hanley/norton. A peak mon-fri extra trip and also some sunday journeys sort of in line with shift times these must have some support from somewhere as i cant see a bus leaving adderley green at 0433 on a sunday getting many passengers
 

Baxenden Bank

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Also D&G are starting some new journeys on the 14 between trentham lakes and hanley/norton. A peak mon-fri extra trip and also some sunday journeys sort of in line with shift times these must have some support from somewhere as i cant see a bus leaving adderley green at 0433 on a sunday getting many passengers
Yes, shift times: 0600 to 1400, 1400 to 2200, 2200 to 0600.

I assumed the 22 ran from Adderley Green - the start / end times suggest that.
 

the101

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Another service is to be withdrawn by First in The Potteries.

Service 97: Newcastle to Wolstanton Retail Park. This from 3 December rather than 26 November with all the other changes. No mention on the First website but appears on the Stoke-on-Trent City Council website (www.stokebus.info) and confirmed by the travel shop at Hanley this morning.

A single vehicle working which gets them down to a 100 bus off-peak requirement. Looks like 2018 will be the year we go below 100.

There's no stopping them now.....

Taking lessons from Northampton.
Or more accurately, a service where the subsidy paid by an outside body will cease and thus it will be discontinued - but why let facts get in the way of the usual ill-informed 'glass half empty' garbage?
 

Baxenden Bank

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Or more accurately, a service where the subsidy paid by an outside body will cease and thus it will be discontinued - but why let facts get in the way of the usual ill-informed 'glass half empty' garbage?

Because we don't have any facts. First haven't condescended to communicate anything to the long suffering public. There is nothing on their website about the withdrawal of this service, there is nothing in their printed leaflet. I cannot recall anything suggesting that the 97 is anything other than a normal commercial service.

According to their own website, a new timetable is introduced on 27 November / 2 December for this service. Who would think to assume that within days it will be withdrawn.

If a business wants to control its reputation in the social media world, it has to get out there and communicate. Not sit there and just bat balls back when the local newspaper phones up and asks.

And the glass is half empty. What positives can you possibly take from a continuous stream of service reductions and withdrawals? Oh great, the company is back in profit having cut 33% of it's fleet in three and a bit years. Shame the passenger numbers and revenue are declining at an even faster rate! A recipe for business success!
 

ag51ruk

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There is a note on the D&G timetable pages about the future of the 85 service on Sundays

"Good news! Following the recent consultation on funding of local bus services by Staffordshire County Council, Keele University have stepped in to provide funding to continue the Sunday and Bank Holiday journeys on service 85. More information on this will be posted once it is available."

http://www.dgbus.co.uk/buses-in-staffordshire-and-stoke-on-trent.html
 

Baxenden Bank

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Collected a set of new First timetables today.

Timetables change 26 November.
Fares revised 26 November.
Timetables printed showing old fares. There is undoubtedly a good reason for this, but it escapes me for the moment.

Also collected a new D & G booklet. This now includes a route map rather than the previous diagram. Not ideal but better than before.
 

DenmarkRail

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I'm not sure if anyone is interested in this, but please remember the D&G Bus 'Young Person' fare (£1.50) is valid until your 17 years of age (inclusive). If you don't tell the driver your a young person you will get charged £3.00.

:)
 

Thin man

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Isnt 2 pounds the adult fare.
D&G are changing the 10 (already) from 22nd feb.
Mon-Fri journeys extending to longton
Sat journeys curtailed to operate hanley to coalville only
 

DenmarkRail

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Isnt 2 pounds the adult fare.
D&G are changing the 10 (already) from 22nd feb.
Mon-Fri journeys extending to longton
Sat journeys curtailed to operate hanley to coalville only

I've always been charged £3... Any changes to 14 buses?
 

Thin man

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2 pound in potteries 1.50 young person
Obviously if you are travelling outside potteries fare will be dearer would have thought young person fare would be dearer also. Well done on highlighting this to people though wonder how many 16/17 year olds needlessly pay adult fare on d&g
Only 10 service changing afaik there will probably be more changes in april to d&g services when cheshire and staffs council tendered services change
 

Baxenden Bank

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£2 single fare within the Potteries except for some cross-city journeys.

Surprisingly (not) the 10 is not carrying many passengers. Could be the severely reduced timetable (20 mins to 30 mins and much shorter periods of operation). Plus the fact that it runs at random times, often earlier than the published timetable so leaving people behind.

The 10 / 10A / 410 changes are the only ones published, plus taking over the Alton Towers staff buses from March (published in N & P last Friday).
 

Thin man

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The changes to the 10 will probably kill it for good. Timetable even more random/confusing and even shorter hours of operation. Last return from hanley 40 mins earlier than now
 

DenmarkRail

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2 pound in potteries 1.50 young person
Obviously if you are travelling outside potteries fare will be dearer would have thought young person fare would be dearer also. Well done on highlighting this to people though wonder how many 16/17 year olds needlessly pay adult fare on d&g
Only 10 service changing afaik there will probably be more changes in april to d&g services when cheshire and staffs council tendered services change

What is the tendering process? Similar to railway processes?
 

Thin man

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It is all about the councils saving money from their budgets. (cuts to services).I am sure someone with more knowledge of how the tendering works will be along shortly.
 

Baxenden Bank

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What is the tendering process? Similar to railway processes?

In simple terms: Council sends out a tender document for a service it wishes to pay for (a route and timetable) having identified a social need that is not met by commercial bus services. Operators submit prices. Council chooses someone to operate the service (generally for a fixed period of three to five years).

As regards Staffordshire, it is not a tendering issue. Last year they decided to cut the 'socially necessary bus services' budget from April 2018. A consultation was carried out asking which limbs people wanted cutting off (with no choice of 'no cuts thank you'). The result was put to councillors to approve, and they did, so now we just await the exact details of the cuts i.e. will operators take on some routes / journeys commercially.

The D & G operated service 12, my last bus out in to the countryside, is definitely going.
 

bussnapperwm

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In simple terms: Council sends out a tender document for a service it wishes to pay for (a route and timetable) having identified a social need that is not met by commercial bus services. Operators submit prices. Council chooses someone to operate the service (generally for a fixed period of three to five years).

As regards Staffordshire, it is not a tendering issue. Last year they decided to cut the 'socially necessary bus services' budget from April 2018. A consultation was carried out asking which limbs people wanted cutting off (with no choice of 'no cuts thank you'). The result was put to councillors to approve, and they did, so now we just await the exact details of the cuts i.e. will operators take on some routes / journeys commercially.

The D & G operated service 12, my last bus out in to the countryside, is definitely going.

And for members who want the tender specifications (ie what the authority are wanting bus operators to bid on) for their local authorities, the Freedom of Information Act allows you to request them...
 

James101

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The changes to the 10 will probably kill it for good. Timetable even more random/confusing and even shorter hours of operation. Last return from hanley 40 mins earlier than now

The changes only result in detracting from the 1 between Meir and Longton. I was rather hoping D&G would have another go at extending the 40 now that they have a greater presence in the city. Perhaps a circuitous route from Hanley - Stoke Station - Fenton - Mount Pleasant - Longton - Meir - Weston Coyney - Coalville - Bentilee - Hanley & reverse.
 

DenmarkRail

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Reading that the 12 (Fulford - Eccleshall - Newport) will end from April, as well as the 15 (Newport - Eccleshall - Stone).

The 13 (Stoke - Eccleshall - Norton Bridge - Stafford) will remain due to extension of DfT funding through 2018 & part of 2019.

Looks as if Eccleshall parish council could still save the 12 & 15. The services ending will mean Stafford loses all buses from/to Newport / Market Drayton, and 1 daily Stafford service a day in each direction. I THINK that the 14 (Stoke - Eccleshall - Stafford) will see no change.
 

DenmarkRail

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I assume you mean Eccleshall ! Stafford - Newport is every 30 mins on (commercial) route 5

My mistake. The lack of bus between 3:30 and 16:55 on Stafford to Eccleshall, meant I took the train to Stone, and got a bus from stone back to Eccleshall. Slower, yes, but much more pleasant.
 
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