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Wrong side door release at Guildford [RMT organiser claims]

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HowardGWR

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I can't believe this but there is a video of it. The Wessex RMT organiser is apparently 'Mick Tosh'. Is this a take-on?

"Guildford train doors opened on wrong side 'exposing passengers to 750,000 volts' RMT organiser claims during 48-hour strike"
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http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/guildford-train-doors-opened-wrong-13872902

This article also includes the TOC reaction:

South Western Railway said although there was no incident reported to have happened on Wednesday morning, there was a similar incident at Guildford station earlier this week.
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tsr

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Would the RMT like to add any more zeros, perhaps for emphasis?


(Worrying if true, though - but the policy at SWR does seem to be that the guard can release the doors before stepping out and checking that the full length of the train is actually in the platform, which saves only a couple of seconds and yet gives a guard’s door release effectively the same risks as a driver’s release.)
 
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SPADTrap

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Is it me or does the voice on the video not match up with what 'RMT Wessex regional organiser Mick Tosh' was saying? :s
ComUtoR said:
You can step over a live rail. I walk past it within a foot on a regular basis.
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I actually think the new rule book says you can stand on it, provided it is the 750kV variant..
 
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bb21

bb21

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To be fair wrong side door release at Guildford is far from a rare occurrence.
 
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HarleyDavidson

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JaJaWa said:
But this was on a train with a guard..?
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What sometimes happens is a train is put in the single track 6/7 at Guildford which has platforms both sides and occasionally a guard opens the doors on platform 7 side, which for some reason is a no no, there's no safety implications to it, it's a perfectly good serviceable/usable platform with an excellent surface, it's just management tend to get a bee in their bonnet about it.
 
QueensCurve

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ComUtoR said:
You can step over a live rail. I walk past it within a foot on a regular basis.
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Not something I would wish to do and non-compliant with the Electricity at Work Regulations (which do apply).

Entertaining though that they have claimed 750kV.
 
ComUtoR

ComUtoR

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QueensCurve said:
Not something I would wish to do and non-compliant with the Electricity at Work Regulations (which do apply).
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Have you ever walked around a sidings in DC land ? I've walked the track a couple of times to place protection etc and I have zero issue with stepping over the juice rail. Considering we may also be required to lay TCOC's that's pretty fecking close to the juice. We also get into and out of units where the DC is just under the Drivers step into the cab door.

I think in DC land you just get used to stepping so close to the juice. AC scares the bejebus out of me.
 
tsr

tsr

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HarleyDavidson said:
What sometimes happens is a train is put in the single track 6/7 at Guildford which has platforms both sides and occasionally a guard opens the doors on platform 7 side, which for some reason is a no no, there's no safety implications to it, it's a perfectly good serviceable/usable platform with an excellent surface, it's just management tend to get a bee in their bonnet about it.
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The reason is that any passengers who fell into the gap between the train and the platform on that side (or who dropped anything reasonably long, such as a big umbrella, and tried to retrieve it) would be more likely to come into contact with the third rail. I believe the only place on the NR network where passengers are routinely allowed to step over a third rail is at Clandon on the down platform, underneath the rearmost doors of a train at maximum length for the platform. This is because the third rail switches sides for trains using the crossover.

Exactly the same assessment is applied on Platforms 1&2 at Norwood Junction. The third rail is on the Platform 2 side and therefore passengers do not board or alight there. I recall one incident where the last train of the day booked through Platform 3 had to terminate there (very unusually) and a wheelchair user alighted... instead of getting the next train on the Up Slow to open its doors on Platform 2 instead of 1, it diverted onto the Up Fast to use Platform 3, so the wheelchair user could continue their journey.

Weirdly, London Underground are happy to allow passengers to step over the juice rail when boarding/alighting certain trains at Morden, for reasons I have never understood.
 
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embers25

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HarleyDavidson said:
Passengers were allegedly exposed to a live rail when a train stopped short of its mark

Rail passengers were exposed to a live track carrying 750,000 volts at Guildford station, according to an RMT member.

Speaking on Wednesday morning (November 8) at the Woking station picket line during a 48-hour strike in a dispute over the future of guards, RMT Wessex regional organiser Mick Tosh claimed passengers were dangerously exposed to the live track.

"I mean, we’ve seen this morning already that in the first hour we had reported that at Guildford station train doors opened onto a live rail with 750,000 volts running through it and that the doors were open on the wrong side of the train and exposing the passengers to that," he said.

“Hopefully they [passengers] are not getting on the trains with people that are not properly trained to operate as guards."

When asked to explain reasons for strike action, he added: "What we are trying to do is to defend the position of having a second safety critical persons on every train to make the trains safer for the travelling public.

"Absolutely the previous franchise holder had a guarantee of a second safety critical person always being there. The new owners now want to change that, they want to be in a place where they can run trains with just the driver. We don’t believe that to be safe."

South Western Railway said although there was no incident reported to have happened on Wednesday morning, there was a similar incident at Guildford station earlier this week.

"After investigating this fully, we do not have any record of this incident," a spokesman said.

"However, a similar incident occurred at Guildford station earlier this week where a train stopped short of its mark and the doors were opened.

"No-one alighted at this point and, after closing the doors, the train moved forward to its correct mark to allow passengers to leave the train."

Source: http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/guildford-train-doors-opened-wrong-13872902

Take this with a pinch of salt, as GetSurrey doesn't have a very good reputation for accurate reporting.

Anyone got any ideas about the safe working distance from 750kV?
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Note the RMT aren't calling for the removal of regular guards based on the earlier incorrect release this week which was true (this one may not be)! My experience so far is based on several WoE line trains with plenty of seats and on the first one the replacement guard walked through the train wishing everyone a good morning several times, helping whoever asked. All very professional and better than usual! Woking was a tad busy nothing worse than normal. The picket at Woking wasn't getting much joy from commuters either and they appeared to have given up fairly quickly on the town side.
 
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RichardN

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tsr said:
Weirdly, London Underground are happy to allow passengers to step over the juice rail when boarding/alighting certain trains at Morden, for reasons I have never understood.
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Fourth rail is inherently safer than third due to not being referenced to earth (except where it is!) Don't try it though!
 
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infobleep

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tsr said:
The reason is that any passengers who fell into the gap between the train and the platform on that side (or who dropped anything reasonably long, such as a big umbrella, and tried to retrieve it) would be more likely to come into contact with the third rail. I believe the only place on the NR network where passengers are routinely allowed to step over a third rail is at Clandon on the down platform, underneath the rearmost doors of a train at maximum length for the platform. This is because the third rail switches sides for trains using the crossover.

Exactly the same assessment is applied on Platforms 1&2 at Norwood Junction. The third rail is on the Platform 2 side and therefore passengers do not board or alight there. I recall one incident where the last train of the day booked through Platform 3 had to terminate there (very unusually) and a wheelchair user alighted... instead of getting the next train on the Up Slow to open its doors on Platform 2 instead of 1, it diverted onto the Up Fast to use Platform 3, so the wheelchair user could continue their journey.

Weirdly, London Underground are happy to allow passengers to step over the juice rail when boarding/alighting certain trains at Morden, for reasons I have never understood.
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Regarding the Underground, maybe it's considered safe but only if your using an Underground line or train.

Why is it that the doors on the last carriage are not locked out of use for trains using the down line at Clandon?
 
Kite159

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If wrong side release at Guildford is a large problem, why not build some sort of fence alongside the edge of platform 7 to protect the passengers from falling onto the live rail if platform 8 gets busy, similar to Ascot? Or is that a silly thing to suggest?
 
tsr

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RichardN said:
Fourth rail is inherently safer than third due to not being referenced to earth (except where it is!) Don't try it though!
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Oh, trust me, I’m well aware there could still be massive risks from going too close to it. I still don’t think it’s the best situation for pax to be in, though I take your point.

infobleep said:
Why is it that the doors on the last carriage are not locked out of use for trains using the down line at Clandon?
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Doors at that end of the platform are seldom used as they are well away from the entrance/exit and so the risk is quite low. The gap is also quite small and that bit of the platform is dead straight with a new-ish surface. If I remember correctly, there are also mitigation measures (kick boards) preventing anyone who lands on ballast from touching the third rail.

Kite159 said:
If wrong side release at Guildford is a large problem, why not build some sort of fence alongside the edge of platform 7 to protect the passengers from falling onto the live rail if platform 8 gets busy, similar to Ascot? Or is that a silly thing to suggest?
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I’m really not sure. It’s already been done on the bits of platforms at Guildford which are adjacent to another line where trains approach/depart the station but do not stop (the ends of Platforms 1 and 8 are like this, for example).
 
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dctraindriver

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SPADTrap said:
Is it me or does the voice on the video not match up with what 'RMT Wessex regional organiser Mick Tosh' was saying? :s


I actually think the new rule book says you can stand on it, provided it is the 750kV variant..
Click to expand...

Link to this? According to my DC rule book you don’t step on it. I think I’ll carry on stepping over it......
 
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swt_passenger

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infobleep said:
Regarding the Underground, maybe it's considered safe but only if your using an Underground line or train.

Why is it that the doors on the last carriage are not locked out of use for trains using the down line at Clandon?
Click to expand...

There will have been a risk assessment. That won't be the only place on the DC network where there is a short length of third rail alongside a platform end, the way S&C occurs very near many platform ends would suggest it isn't as black and white as you might think.
 
bb21

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Kite159 said:
If wrong side release at Guildford is a large problem, why not build some sort of fence alongside the edge of platform 7 to protect the passengers from falling onto the live rail if platform 8 gets busy, similar to Ascot? Or is that a silly thing to suggest?
Click to expand...
No one said it's a large problem.

Most wrong side door releases are also noticed fairly instantaneously.
 
DelW

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tsr said:
The reason is that any passengers who fell into the gap between the train and the platform on that side (or who dropped anything reasonably long, such as a big umbrella, and tried to retrieve it) would be more likely to come into contact with the third rail.
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Prior to the withdrawal of the CIGs, VEPs, and/or first generation DMUs, passengers could presumably have used platform 7 instead of 6 whenever they wanted. It would be interesting to know whether the post-electrification accident statistics for that platform were any worse than the others. However, I'd guess that information isn't available without a lot of digging into paper archives, even if those survived privatisation.
 
tsr

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dctraindriver said:
Link to this? According to my DC rule book you don’t step on it. I think I’ll carry on stepping over it......
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Given there’s no such thing as a 750kV third rail, I can’t see the Rule Book specifically prohibiting anything to do with it... ;)

swt_passenger said:
There will have been a risk assessment. That won't be the only place on the DC network where there is a short length of third rail alongside a platform end, the way S&C occurs very near many platform ends would suggest it isn't as black and white as you might think.
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Platform ends - yes... alongside usable bits of platforms - no.

I can’t think of too many directly comparable locations, and I’ve been to rather a lot of third rail areas...

bb21 said:
No one said it's a large problem.

Most wrong side door releases are also noticed fairly instantaneously.
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It’s certainly not a frequent problem, but it could theoretically end up with a rather big one if it does happen.

Wrong side door releases onto the incorrect platform face at Norwood Junction have, I believe, resulted in dismissal of staff in times past (not that recently, but within the last decade or so).
 
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JaJaWa said:
But this was on a train with a guard..?
Click to expand...

It does sound like there was an incident on a service earlier in the week due to an error by the guard and the RMT have released the footage today because they want to make it sound like it was an 'emergency guard' who made the error. If that's correct the RMT have just presented evidence for replacing the guard with something more effective e.g. maybe a technology that can detect which side the platform is on.
 
Monty

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jcollins said:
It does sound like there was an incident on a service earlier in the week due to an error by the guard and the RMT have released the footage today because they want to make it sound like it was an 'emergency guard' who made the error. If that's correct the RMT have just presented evidence for replacing the guard with something more effective e.g. maybe a technology that can detect which side the platform is on.
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I'm not convinced such an incident occurred last week, normally when a train stops short and the doors have been released there is usually an internal memo on the notice boards(with details of the incident) reminding staff of the importance to ensure that the train is accommodated properly before releasing the passenger doors.
 
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