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Perth station redevelopment - ScotRail & Network Rail in discussions
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Isn't that a bit unfair? Wasn't Dundee station rebuild a function of a wider regeneration scheme necessitating a significant change in the area's layout?
I don't understand why you are comparing Perth with Falkirk. Perth is a major interchange point, people are going to be hanging around Perth station for a while waiting for connections. Neither Falkirk station is a major interchange (how many people regularly travel from Croy to Linlithgow?).
It is a grand old building, but it's looking very dilapidated and much of it is largely unused today. I'd prefer to get rid of the modern middle bit and make more use of the old building between platfrom 4 and 7, but that leaves the Aberdeen platforms a long, long way away.
Life would be a whole lot easier if it wasn't for the Station Hotel being situated where it is. It's hard to see what can be done with the station using the current structures. Even the main building between P4 & P5 has limited passenger tunnels connecting both platforms. And given the Northern half of it is being used for a first class lounge, again, options are fairly limited.
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47271
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But surely if the carriage sidings were done away with then there's a large gap for access between the main building and the present forecourt area, the Station Hotel doesn't interfere with that? Not only that, there's an opportunity to reopen 'Queen Victoria's passage' to allow access from the present P3 area to the hotel itself, as I understand it some idiot bricked it up in the 1960s, but it's still clearly visible from the platform. Goodness knows the hotel could do with some perking up of its business from any entrance.
I agree that there's a few dingy corridors between P4 and the P7 concourse, and the standalone footbridge between P3 and P4 is straight out of a museum, that bridge in itself is enough to justify doing away with trains in the vicinity, but 99% of people shift between P4 and P5 by the large gap where the waiting room is at the moment. Of all the problems Perth station has at the moment I don't think this is the worst one.
What's the problem with the CS First Class lounge, aren't they going to occupy the first floor for this and their training and management centre?
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Indeed if the carriage sidings were bulldozed, you would then be left with a large area of land which could easily be used for carparks and bus parks etc. Especially if P3 & P4 were made termini, then you would have the space to transform that whole space to also accommodate a new concourse.
The Hotel in my eyes doesn't help the situation with P1 & P2 being so far away from the rest in terms of the station buildings (rather than distance) - in other words it's almost like two entirely different stations. If the station hotel wasn't where it currently is, the whole area from the carriage sidings to the current entrance for P1 & P2 would be able to link up far better than what it currently does both on the road, and through the station itself (if that makes sense?).
As far as I know, Serco will use both floors of the building, which could limit the number of changes being made to that building during the station's redevelopment: such as enhancing the links from P4 to P5.
Perth has too many problems to be able to pinpoint one as being the worst.
Every problematic aspect is as bad as each other.
The station's not so hot either.
47271
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I'm possibly a bit more optimistic on it overall - so long as they're prepared to spend a lot of money on it and properly restore and reuse the buildings worthy of restoration.
I saw P3 and P4 being done away with completely, allowing the locus of activity (drop off, taxis etc) to be at the south end of the main building, or in other words close to where you enter the existing walkway that leads to the present concourse. At this point we really aren't far at all from P2.
CS would be going some to fill all of the main building, it's enormous, and also bear in mind it's not entirely deserted even now, with quite a few offices on the ground floor.
But I agree, whatever they do they're going to have multiple challenges to deal with.
Just out of interest, does anyone know what the access and ticketing arrangements were prior to the creation of the present 1970s (I assume this is when it was built, it certainly doesn't look any newer) concourse and travel centre? There may be lessons to be learned from the past.
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I think it would be a shame to completely lose platforms 3 and 4 at Perth because that's the best part of the station. Walk through from platform 2 and it's like a different world.
To be honest, it seems odd that any proposals involve either removing them, or turning them into the terminal platforms. Wouldn't it make more sense to retain 3&4 as through (with a remodelling of 3 to get rid of the odd layout at the north end), 5&6 as terminus and get rid of 7? Then join 2&3 with a better concourse than the one currently there.
That means the through platforms to Inverness are as close as possible to the Dundee lines.
Or have I missed the point of the redevelopment completely?
To be honest, it seems odd that any proposals involve either removing them, or turning them into the terminal platforms. Wouldn't it make more sense to retain 3&4 as through (with a remodelling of 3 to get rid of the odd layout at the north end), 5&6 as terminus and get rid of 7? Then join 2&3 with a better concourse than the one currently there.
That means the through platforms to Inverness are as close as possible to the Dundee lines.
Or have I missed the point of the redevelopment completely?
I think that one of the objectives is to have a 750m freight loop at Perth. Platform 3/4 wouldn't give you that opportunity. So you'd have to keep the current platform 7 line connected. If you're going to do that, then getting rid of the north end connection of 3/4 starts to make sense.
Railsigns
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In terms of track geometry, a straighter alignment is obtained by locating the through platforms further to the west.
I see the logic with both of these, but at the same time isn't it better to prioritise passenger experience? In other words, keeping the station as compact as possible and avoiding making it look even more like two separate stations.
Railsigns
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Whatever is done will be a compromise between a number of competing considerations. The station may be less compact than it could be, but the extra space created will likely make a better environment for passengers and could be occupied by useful facilities. Even taking worse case, the distance to walk between platforms won't be excessive, and most passengers aren't changing trains there anyway.
Compare this with the new station at Forres, which although located further from the town, straightens out the track alignment and improves passenger facilities.
47271
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As I see it, the point of filling in P3 and P4 and bringing vehicle drop off as far south as possible within that area, is that all but P1 become accessible on the level from that central point. If you retain those presently very underused platforms 3 and 4, then just about everyone still has to cross tracks to access the bays and P7. Presumably the second more remote HML platform, which would be where the wash road is at the moment, would only be used if two trains were physically crossing in the station.
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Why did they stop regularly using platform 3? I remember going to Perth every other weekend during the mid to late 90's and very rarely was I ever on platform 7. Platform 4 was most often used, but 3 was also common.The Highland Chieftain used platform 4 both North and Southbound, IIRC.
MidnightFlyer
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Perth is one of my favourite stations not just in Scotland but the UK, primarily because I genuinely believe the area of platforms 3 to 4 is an absolute gem that should be held in the same regard as some of the better-known preserved sites on our network.
That said however, it does need some love. I passed through the Highland side yesterday and, spectacular though I find it, it is showing its age. The news that some use is being made of it at a lower level is welcome, though that still leaves what is presumably a colossal amount of space elsewhere to be maintained and preferably put to use.
Further, Perth, in an operational sense, is one of the very few places left that is a complete mess and needs a thorough remodelling; and it is important that whatever happens does bring the Dundee and Highland sides of the station closer together for the ease of passengers (and management of the site!). The moves to integrate the bus and rail elements (the bus station is an absolute dive) is similarly positive, and hopefully this scheme can marry the two together nicely.
Manchester Victoria is not too dissimilar: to the best of my knowledge the L&Y building there is practically abandoned apart from its use at ground level, but that still did not stop a deserved, necessary and tasteful transformation of the wider environment surrounding it. Whatever is done to Perth, I just hope similar regard for the history and grandeur of the place is taken.
That said however, it does need some love. I passed through the Highland side yesterday and, spectacular though I find it, it is showing its age. The news that some use is being made of it at a lower level is welcome, though that still leaves what is presumably a colossal amount of space elsewhere to be maintained and preferably put to use.
Further, Perth, in an operational sense, is one of the very few places left that is a complete mess and needs a thorough remodelling; and it is important that whatever happens does bring the Dundee and Highland sides of the station closer together for the ease of passengers (and management of the site!). The moves to integrate the bus and rail elements (the bus station is an absolute dive) is similarly positive, and hopefully this scheme can marry the two together nicely.
Manchester Victoria is not too dissimilar: to the best of my knowledge the L&Y building there is practically abandoned apart from its use at ground level, but that still did not stop a deserved, necessary and tasteful transformation of the wider environment surrounding it. Whatever is done to Perth, I just hope similar regard for the history and grandeur of the place is taken.
47271
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Of course, there is another solution if we want to hold on the dingy atmosphere. There's nothing quite like P4 at Perth station at 9am on a heavily overcast winter's morning for being able to see absolutely nothing at all.
Abandon the site as an operational station and turn it into the Scottish National Railway Museum, with full restoration of the overall roof and P3/P4 to create a covered space. Service trains continue through on P1/2/7, but don't stop.
The station itself is moved to the south in a completely new four platform structure beneath the road bridge where, after all, just about train passes at the moment.
I'm only 80% joking...
Abandon the site as an operational station and turn it into the Scottish National Railway Museum, with full restoration of the overall roof and P3/P4 to create a covered space. Service trains continue through on P1/2/7, but don't stop.
The station itself is moved to the south in a completely new four platform structure beneath the road bridge where, after all, just about train passes at the moment.
I'm only 80% joking...
It's frustrating that Perth station's design isn't the most innovative - ie made for one layout and not easily adaptable as let's say, St. Pancras.
Had the station been located a few hundred metres to the South, even where St. Leonards bridge is, then the station needn't have been divided in the way it is.
Had the station been located a few hundred metres to the South, even where St. Leonards bridge is, then the station needn't have been divided in the way it is.
Altnabreac
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Once you remove platforms 3 and 4 the whole layout will naturally move further to the south and the centre of gravity of the station will be closer to the new footbridge (which will need extending to the platform 7 island).
Initially I thought it sounded a bonkers idea but it is a much more flexible layout and having 3 through platforms for Inverness and turnbacks is more than enough.
Initially I thought it sounded a bonkers idea but it is a much more flexible layout and having 3 through platforms for Inverness and turnbacks is more than enough.
The new HST stabling depot due to be constructed next year is now confirmed to be located in the derelict carriage sidings behind the wall adjacent to the wash road at Platform 7. In addition, ballast and Sleepers are already piled up beside St. Leonard's bridge, hinting some sort of construction is imminent.
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47271
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They could put a bit of extra height on P7 when they're about it - elderly neighbours of mine tell me that they avoid changing trains at Perth because it's so low.
It is a big step up, but it wouldn't be a small job to raise the platform and there doesn't seem to be much scope for lowering the track.
If ScotRail are so concerned about platform 7, there's nothing stopping them using platform 3 for Inverness services seeing as the former is in need of TLC. Surprised that hasn't happened already given the amount of complaints 7 is renound among passengers for over the years.
47271
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Jeez, what a depressing subject. Dingy, crumbling and dysfunctional, and now we're reminded that one of the most heavily used platforms isn't even up to acceptable height standards and can't be fixed in the short term.
Maybe I'm in a gloomy mood tonight, but something tells me that we could all go back there in ten years time and, because electrification will have stalled, the place won't have changed at all.
Okay, the fruit machine in the cafe might have been upgraded by then.
Maybe I'm in a gloomy mood tonight, but something tells me that we could all go back there in ten years time and, because electrification will have stalled, the place won't have changed at all.
Okay, the fruit machine in the cafe might have been upgraded by then.
Aye, Perth was my spotting place of choice from the late 50s onwards. There was never a true concourse..You would pick up a taxi from the turning area at the (Glasgow Road) North end or be collected at the Queens Hotel/Station Hotel entrance, where parked cars mingle with Postal vehicles and buses, for that was the bus station. There were at least three generous buffets (the largest a restaurant on platform 4) A Pregrouping hangover, I think was all nighter too. There was an all night Staff canteen, in which spotters were welcome) near the Dundee corridor. There were three ticket offices (Platform 4, North End facing the Glasgow Road entrance and the Dundee Corridor. The Early 60's Reorganisation led to colour signalling, the North Yard and a new power box built on top of the LNER shed throat (the shed was used for car maintenance...may still be there). The highland shed near Glasgow Road (a haven for 'crabs' it seems, before my time) closed early 30s...about the time that the LMS shed at Friarton was reconstructed. Indeed the overall shed roof has steadily been eroded, and err, corroded.
When I worked on the St Pancras rebuild (Vastly differing scale, I know) it was listed grade 1, which mainly applied to the Chambers/Hotel but the grading was chipped away at by the client, and Camden council and English Heritage tended to 'Trade' to allow removal and storage because of the importance of the major works on the huge blighted community...mourned by locals and film-makers alike. Note to the station owners and PCC alike...could the wider station area be a new commercial hub? A great opportunity to embrace the new short 125 sets. Ahem
When I worked on the St Pancras rebuild (Vastly differing scale, I know) it was listed grade 1, which mainly applied to the Chambers/Hotel but the grading was chipped away at by the client, and Camden council and English Heritage tended to 'Trade' to allow removal and storage because of the importance of the major works on the huge blighted community...mourned by locals and film-makers alike. Note to the station owners and PCC alike...could the wider station area be a new commercial hub? A great opportunity to embrace the new short 125 sets. Ahem
47271
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At last someone who knows what it was like pre the present 1970s front door!
So if in the 1950s I had arrived in the car park area between the Station Hotel and the taxi rank as it is now, how would I have entered the station to catch a train?
So if in the 1950s I had arrived in the car park area between the Station Hotel and the taxi rank as it is now, how would I have entered the station to catch a train?
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