First Group: General Discussion

overthewater · 17 Nov 2017

How do we know? There is no national order announced, the fleet has been held over etc I was lead to believe those two place might be due some new stock, nothing major etc maybe 10 -15 buses etc. We still dont know what Glasgow will be given even thought there won 25 from the green fund.

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Robertj21a · 17 Nov 2017

overthewater said:
How do we know? There is no national order announced, the fleet has been held over etc I was lead to believe those two place might be due some new stock, nothing major etc maybe 10 -15 buses etc. We still dont know what Glasgow will be given even thought there won 25 from the green fund.

With announcements made already you can get to around the 180 figure anyway.

Surreyman · 17 Nov 2017

While we are talking about Glasgow, we know there is a clean air zone planned for the City centre(I know the exact boundary hasn't been confirmed) Can anyone roughly estimate how many routes/vehicles will be affected? (I am assuming that some routes are out in the suburbs/don't go into central Glasgow so can continue with non-Euro 6).

overthewater · 17 Nov 2017

Surreyman said:
While we are talking about Glasgow, we know there is a clean air zone planned for the City centre(I know the exact boundary hasn't been confirmed) Can anyone roughly estimate how many routes/vehicles will be affected? (I am assuming that some routes are out in the suburbs/don't go into central Glasgow so can continue with non-Euro 6).

Nothing is set in stone: To get to the point its TOO many, alot of the buses are no where near Euro 6 let alone Euro 5... At good amount of workhorses are Euro 3. As I've have been trying to say "FIG No2" routes which have been given the investment so the likes of 240, 267, X85/x87, X3 etc

So what route within Glasgow will comply with Euro6 ? At a short guess No1, No2, No5 No6 no77 and even then that pushing REALLY pushing it, since said routes are not fully operated by Euro 6 buses. IE mix of all different type of stock. The only Fig No1 route would be 500's fully operated.

To befair No1 has 5-6 year buses on the route, No6 has 4 years or younger and the nothing wrong with that, while a other major workhorse No18 has 15 years old stock, but there still alot of 51 plate in the company https://www.flickr.com/photos/west_scotland_transport/37350535765

See the problem? Just look at the fleet list; Thats why this clean air zone is problematic for first

Volvodart · 17 Nov 2017

Surreyman said:
While we are talking about Glasgow, we know there is a clean air zone planned for the City centre(I know the exact boundary hasn't been confirmed) Can anyone roughly estimate how many routes/vehicles will be affected? (I am assuming that some routes are out in the suburbs/don't go into central Glasgow so can continue with non-Euro 6).

If LEZ comes to Aberdeen, First will have a problem as all buses go through the city centre.

Dai Corner · 17 Nov 2017

Surreyman said:
While we are talking about Glasgow, we know there is a clean air zone planned for the City centre(I know the exact boundary hasn't been confirmed) Can anyone roughly estimate how many routes/vehicles will be affected? (I am assuming that some routes are out in the suburbs/don't go into central Glasgow so can continue with non-Euro 6).

I can't answer your question about the affected routes, but can suggest a workaround. Buses could run from outlying areas to railway stations where passengers could change to continue their journeys to the city centre. There's a revolutionary idea!

route101 · 17 Nov 2017

Volvodart said:
Somewhere in First has to have the older buses. It is just circumstances that it is Glasgow, because managment there over the yeaars has been very poor, necessitating all the older second hand double deckers coming in when they decided they needed more double deckers. Aberdeen had the same problem of older buses a few years ago, but thanks to the rights issue, it got a new fleet.

I live on a half hourly first glasgow route 31, mostly old tridents which are now more frequently failing . Sometimes geminis , the e400 now in fig 2 hands.

route101 · 17 Nov 2017

At caledonia depot fig 2 drivers are separate , i believe ex parkhead are like that too

Volvodart · 20 Nov 2017

Since the service changes in August, Aberdeen has had a surplus of buses, as only the 8 Tridents were withdrawn earlier this year and more buses than that were taken out with these changes. A few weeks ago, the 5 X reg Wright Renown Volvo B10BLE's were placed in reserve, but available for use. That was reversed within a few days and they were reinstated. Currently 6 Volvo B7LA artics have gone to First West Lothian's Livingston depot for storage, with more to follow this week.

90sWereBetter · 20 Nov 2017

Volvodart said:
Since the service changes in August, Aberdeen has had a surplus of buses, as only the 8 Tridents were withdrawn earlier this year and more buses than that were taken out with these changes. A few weeks ago, the 5 X reg Wright Renown Volvo B10BLE's were placed in reserve, but available for use. That was reversed within a few days and they were reinstated. Currently 6 Volvo B7LA artics have gone to First West Lothian's Livingston depot for storage, with more to follow this week.

I understand the Y-reg B10BLEs are going through a repaint programme at present, wonder if the X-reg quintet will be done as they're apparently only a few weeks older (they were delivered in February 2001, the Y-reg batch March 2001).

Presumably the artics are being mothballed because of high fuel consumption?

Volvodart · 20 Nov 2017

Yes and expensive to run E500s were being used on routes that did not need double deckers.

I am unsure if all the Y reg are getting repainted anyway, but I would have thought that they were unlikely to repaint the X reg ones.

route101 · 20 Nov 2017

Volvodart said:
Yes and expensive to run E500s were being used on routes that did not need double deckers.

I am unsure if all the Y reg are getting repainted anyway, but I would have thought that they were unlikely to repaint the X reg ones.

The E500s should of stayed in Glasgow routes like the 2 need deckers.

MB1 · 20 Nov 2017

route101 said:
The E500s should of stayed in Glasgow routes like the 2 need deckers.

Aberdeen also need high capacity vehicles for the 1 and 2, which serve both universities and have standing loads on both E500s and B7LAs most mornings.

Volvodart · 20 Nov 2017

They never needed all 25 E500s anyway. It was Glasgow wanting rid of them.

Jordan Adam · 20 Nov 2017

As far as i know all the Y reg B10BLEs are to be repainted. Some won't be done till next year due to them receiving rear adverts earlier this year that have not expired yet. The X reg examples were not going to be done as they were put in reserve although i suspect this may change now that the Artics are being taken off in their place. The X reg examples have all now had seat re-trims. The registrations marks are deceiving people it seems. The X/Y reg B10BLEs were all new in Febuary 2001, just most were not delivered and registered till March. While 62151 was in reserve it appears they done some minor engine work to it as it now runs on all 6 cylinders again.

Observer · 20 Nov 2017

Nothing wrong with the B10BLEs, they're bullet proof compared to the likes of StreetLites and E300s. Give them a freshening up and they'll still do a few more years.

Aberdeen sent a bunch of the W and X-reg B10BLEs to Scotland East / Midland Bluebird a few years ago and didn't bother doing the simple work needed to get them DDA certified to keep them running which wasn't a good decision there, could have at least kept a few as useful spares when needed.

overthewater · 20 Nov 2017

Observer said:
Nothing wrong with the B10BLEs, they're bullet proof compared to the likes of StreetLites and E300s. Give them a freshening up and they'll still do a few more years.

Aberdeen sent a bunch of the W and X-reg B10BLEs to Scotland East / Midland Bluebird a few years ago and didn't bother doing the simple work needed to get them DDA certified to keep them running which wasn't a good decision there, could have at least kept a few as useful spares when needed.

There went sent south instead, Buses of Somerset? . The buses in question were not useful to the end goal of the current operations, further to that, even now there still trying to find "other smaller" buses to better fit the operations.

Jordan Adam · 20 Nov 2017

Observer said:
Nothing wrong with the B10BLEs, they're bullet proof compared to the likes of StreetLites and E300s. Give them a freshening up and they'll still do a few more years.

Aberdeen sent a bunch of the W and X-reg B10BLEs to Scotland East / Midland Bluebird a few years ago and didn't bother doing the simple work needed to get them DDA certified to keep them running which wasn't a good decision there, could have at least kept a few as useful spares when needed.

All of the B10BLEs in the Aberdeen fleet have just had seat re-trims and they're in the process of repainting them. As you've said they're bullet proof and i totally agree, to this day they're still the most reliable buses in the fleet and the favourites with the drivers.

Accident damaged 62168 and NonDDA complaint 62194/201 have been slowly cannibalised this year for parts. 62201 has now been scrapped with 62168 and 62194 still at the rear of the depot.

Ticket2ryd · 21 Nov 2017

What's the life expectancy of buses after refurbished? Over here only 5 yrs but most of them where failing right from refurb plant

THarris123 · 21 Nov 2017

overthewater said:
There went sent south instead, Buses of Somerset? . The buses in question were not useful to the end goal of the current operations, further to that, even now there still trying to find "other smaller" buses to better fit the operations.

I believe they went to Scotland East and then down to Buses of Somerset, Essex and West of England. Some of the ex Aberdeen fleet are now working as trainers down here.

Does the second sentence refer to Somerset or Aberdeen?

smtglasgow · 21 Nov 2017

Another problem that is going to hit the more unloved parts of the empire is the sheer lack of mid-life buses available for cascade. The years up to 2012 were marked by an extended investment holiday (how many 10/11 plate buses are there across the whole group?), so the cupboard is bare for the type of cascades that Stagecoach specialise in. Maybe time to bite the bullet and see what Ensign has coming out of London?

Volvodart · 21 Nov 2017

A lot of good quality ex First London buses of around 12 plate are already sold on (some to other London operators), so First have missed the boat.

Observer · 21 Nov 2017

Weren't the ex-London buses starting to be fully leased from that point though?

First will sometimes buy second hand, but very rarely.

Volvodart · 21 Nov 2017

I was unaware that First changed to leasing. I think that happened after First bought there last London buses.

Volvodart · 22 Nov 2017

From the following link, the new Leeds buses should be appearing soon:-

https://www.flickr.com/photos/81709...8dHbo-21eJt1D-21bUFCR-21agm2X-21qc1Yz-218oLtq

TheGrandWazoo · 22 Nov 2017

smtglasgow said:
Another problem that is going to hit the more unloved parts of the empire is the sheer lack of mid-life buses available for cascade. The years up to 2012 were marked by an extended investment holiday (how many 10/11 plate buses are there across the whole group?), so the cupboard is bare for the type of cascades that Stagecoach specialise in. Maybe time to bite the bullet and see what Ensign has coming out of London?

Can't recall the terms on which First replaced their London fleet (own or lease) but the fact is that Stagecoach now lease for London because of the instability of the tender process and the fact that you end up with a load of non-standard fleet to assimilate into the rest of the country.

You are right to highlight the lack of investment in the provinces in the years 2008 to 2012. Just wonder if the capital spend is actually available, for either new or older purchases anyway?

Robertj21a · 22 Nov 2017

TheGrandWazoo said:
Can't recall the terms on which First replaced their London fleet (own or lease) but the fact is that Stagecoach now lease for London because of the instability of the tender process and the fact that you end up with a load of non-standard fleet to assimilate into the rest of the country.

You are right to highlight the lack of investment in the provinces in the years 2008 to 2012. Just wonder if the capital spend is actually available, for either new or older purchases anyway?

No probs, just sell off another operation (if there's any buyers out there prepared to pay a sensible price).....

route101 · 22 Nov 2017

smtglasgow said:
Another problem that is going to hit the more unloved parts of the empire is the sheer lack of mid-life buses available for cascade. The years up to 2012 were marked by an extended investment holiday (how many 10/11 plate buses are there across the whole group?), so the cupboard is bare for the type of cascades that Stagecoach specialise in. Maybe time to bite the bullet and see what Ensign has coming out of London?

Cant think of any 10 plated buses in Glasgow , only 11 and 61s were the e400s that were for the 66.

DragonEast · 22 Nov 2017

Robertj21a said:
No probs, just sell off another operation (if there's any buyers out there prepared to pay a sensible price).....

Sell off? There are probably dozens of routes across the country they could withdraw from and benefit profitability. Death by a thousand cuts.

THarris123 · 22 Nov 2017

route101 said:
Cant think of any 10 plated buses in Glasgow , only 11 and 61s were the e400s that were for the 66.

Well 67701-10 were 60 plate

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