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New build warship class 43

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Cowley

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Don’t apologise Phil they’re great. :smile:
 

Ash Bridge

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There’s some interesting stuff on there.
I guess like all these things the Paxman engines had their own sound. The HST had it when on low revs perhaps?
I was chatting to nice chap recently that remembers seeing a class 22 at Newquay when he was a kid...

Who might that have been then? .....I've been and still trying to get to the Facebook page but sadly to no avail, excellent thread is this btw.:smile:
 

Cowley

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Who might that have been then? .....I've been and still trying to get to the Facebook page but sadly to no avail, excellent thread is this btw.:smile:

I can’t remember but I think he was playing crazy golf at the time ;)
 

Pinza-C55

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I've been digging in my slide collection again, I think this might be an appropriate time to post this....

Great shot. What stands out in my mind after all these years was the epic size of this loco. It was, as somebody said of the Deltics, like an ocean liner.
You can see D6122 briefly in this 1969 video
 
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Taunton

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D63xx (Class 22 - I stick to the old designations!) were not common at Taunton, but about 1962 they started a daily appearance on the afternoon stopper from Exeter, for as long as that lasted. And my greatest memory is of one then shunting back through the station, over the crossovers, and into the loco siding alongside the down relief, whereupon it struck the stopblock at the end a very substantial bang, quite audible from (once again) that footbridge several hundred yards to the west. I saw it happen. There was some fluid, possibly radiator water, which sloshed from the roofline as it did so. I wonder if it was still being driven from the opposite end cab.

Their other appearance would be summer Saturdays, just after lunch, where two might appear, in multiple, on an Up service. This would be just as Newton or Laira had used everything else and before the flow of down services arrived there. I can imagine the foreman down to the dregs and the unlucky driver having choice words about it. At least being summer the fireman would not have to attend to the D63xx boiler, one of their worst aspects. The Western hydraulics seemed to have small fuel tanks and turnrounds in the station seemed not practical, they would have to go back from Plymouth to Laira to refuel each trip, and I believe Paignton arrivals returned on an up service but would loco change at Newton Abbot and go on shed. Retaining the Ranelagh Bridge loco fuelling point just outside Paddington was also behind this. I have written elsewhere here about being on the Plymouth-Liverpool, at the time when it was Warship hauled as far as Crewe, and running out of fuel beyond Shrewsbury (rescued by a Shrewsbury Black 5 - oh the shame of it for the Western).
 

Cowley

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Fantastic. D818 Glory - the one that got away too!
Thanks Phil.
 

NightStar

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Most interesting thread. I've learned a bit about the different classes of diesel hydraulic locos. I do agree on a new build 41 being more interesting than a 43.

How much of a difference is there really between the UK loading gauge and the V200? Since I was thinking of the possibility of using the V22 and having a heavy strip down and re-fab into a warship class locomotive could most of the gauging issues be corrected for during this process? Or would the frame still be too wide?

Robert
 

Ash Bridge

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Most interesting thread. I've learned a bit about the different classes of diesel hydraulic locos. I do agree on a new build 41 being more interesting than a 43.

How much of a difference is there really between the UK loading gauge and the V200? Since I was thinking of the possibility of using the V22 and having a heavy strip down and re-fab into a warship class locomotive could most of the gauging issues be corrected for during this process? Or would the frame still be too wide?

Robert

I too would be of the same mind about a new build class 41 over a 43, though as Taunton pointed out above if 42/43 bodies were of an integral construction there wouldn't be a separate heavy underframe on which to reconstruct the new bodywork. The actual footprint of both German and British versions looks almost identical but the German gauged loco is approximately 1ft taller and the side profile is rather different with a rather more generous width allowed in Germany over the UK around the cantrail and from around the solebar and below, the latter of which is perhaps to do with the high platforming over here? Thinking about it now though, if it was possible at the time of construction to just tweak the original design then surely BR would have just gone for that rather than go to all the trouble of a full Swindon redesign?

Edit: had just noticed a mention of class 58s by yourself on another thread, I wonder if one of these would make a suitable platform for a new build 41? ;)
 
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TheBeard

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Chaps, it's all a bit hypothetical without a fair few million to back up a newbuild locomotive.
Business Case means people prepared to donate to a project, and there is not the funds. Most new build steam save a few with big money backers grind to a halt on the crank axle.
Lets be frank, of the 12 surviving hydraulic mainline locos about 5 and a half work, they are beautiful, difficult to maintain, with few spares, the guys on them do a sterling job and would hate all that expertise to flee to a newbuild 41 at the expense of others.
The 41 is an engineering nightmare, unless you made an electrical lookalike.
The transmission poked through the centre pivot and lay close to the centre axle.
The 2 spare 42/43 bogies are retained by their owners for rare spare parts.
If ONSLAUGHT ever comes up for sale is the only realistic way!
A proper new build NBL seems beyond us.
The Baby Deltic shows us the way.
 

Pinza-C55

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I'm a little confused about which locos we are talking about as there so many variations but the NBL locos of which Ark Royal was a member were of massive construction. I once got a book on WR hydraulics from the local library and it went into great detail on the class quoting (i think) riveted construction for the bogies and heavy girders for the chassis. I think the reason for the aluminium bodyshell was to reduce the overall weight to acceptable limits.
 

TheBeard

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Ok a little about the MAN this PU was a prototype in 1938 someone very kindly locked it away from the Nazis until after the war. Engine makers made PUs to DB spec hence several similar V12s
NBL design the big D600s themslves, based on 10000 drawings for the bogies and frame/body. They are oft referred to as CLass 41s, but didnt make it long enough. They are A1A-A1A
They built an electrical Type 2 Class 21, and later Class 29 the 'Sad=Eyes.'These had the ubiquitious Commonwealth bogie
And comparative the Class 22 shorter and with an NBL built up bogie
The V200 were the first monocoque locos in the world, with their baby V80s.
The 42/43s were based on this design, as 'quarts in pint pots.' Originally the 43s were going to be numbered D605-638, but were later the D833s/Class 43 these are B-Bs Swindon rejected the pilot D600s as too heavy, basically.
And the Blue Pullmans also had the same NBL/MAN engine, I think mine was originally retained as spares for these as the cooler group fan may be out of one!
They managed about 50million miles, so despite a number of issues, they certainly ran a lot!
 

LOL The Irony

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Ok a little about the MAN this PU was a prototype in 1938 someone very kindly locked it away from the Nazis until after the war. Engine makers made PUs to DB spec hence several similar V12s
NBL design the big D600s themslves, based on 10000 drawings for the bogies and frame/body. They are oft referred to as CLass 41s, but didnt make it long enough. They are A1A-A1A
They built an electrical Type 2 Class 21, and later Class 29 the 'Sad=Eyes.'These had the ubiquitious Commonwealth bogie
And comparative the Class 22 shorter and with an NBL built up bogie
The V200 were the first monocoque locos in the world, with their baby V80s.
The 42/43s were based on this design, as 'quarts in pint pots.' Originally the 43s were going to be numbered D605-638, but were later the D833s/Class 43 these are B-Bs Swindon rejected the pilot D600s as too heavy, basically.
And the Blue Pullmans also had the same NBL/MAN engine, I think mine was originally retained as spares for these as the cooler group fan may be out of one!
They managed about 50million miles, so despite a number of issues, they certainly ran a lot!

Nice bit of history there. So they suffered the same problems as the 67 I see.
 

TheBeard

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Of great interest there are 3 spare bogies, all ex Swindon.
But 832s are NBLs starting life on 835&836
And one of 821s is an NBL from D863.
Similarly my turbo was from Thruster, all these parts swapped a lot.
They arent/wont ever be for sale, a new pair of any 22/43 would set you back £250000+
BOgies are the diesel new builds equivalent of a hugely expensive crank axle.
Commonwealths and a Handsome 21/29 type loco is to me the answer ;)
 

6Gman

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Didn't the 41s go to Landore for a period at the end of their careers? Presumably to move unfitted coal wagons up and down valleys! Don't think it lasted long and given the need to train drivers and fitters for just five locos seems an odd move.

I visited Swindon Works on a school railway society trip (every school should have one :lol: ) around 1970/72 and there were rows of 22s and 42/43s waiting to be broken up.
 

Ash Bridge

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Didn't the 41s go to Landore for a period at the end of their careers? Presumably to move unfitted coal wagons up and down valleys! Don't think it lasted long and given the need to train drivers and fitters for just five locos seems an odd move.

I visited Swindon Works on a school railway society trip (every school should have one :lol: ) around 1970/72 and there were rows of 22s and 42/43s waiting to be broken up.

On my first ever visit just a little later than you, March or April 73. I don't recall seeing any 22s but plenty of 42/43s plus by that time the 35s had joined them, of course by the time of my second visit in 1975 the yard was full of 52s in various stages of dismantling :(
 

Western Lord

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Anybody with any serious interest in the diesel-hydraulics should get hold of Diesel-Hydraulic Locomotives of the Western Region by Brian Reed, published in 1974 by David & Charles. Used copies are available on Amazon and E-bay for less than £20. It answers pretty much all the questions on this thread.
 

TheBeard

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Never ceases to amaze me how little interest there is in D6332s engine. Didnt realise how tribal diesel emthusiasts are. Often down to the exact livery or number.
 

Cowley

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Never ceases to amaze me how little interest there is in D6332s engine. Didnt realise how tribal diesel emthusiasts are. Often down to the exact livery or number.
Plenty of interest in all things hydraulic here though.
I did ask earlier (#12 but you have missed it) what your plans are with the engine now? Is it up at Bo’ness?
Do you get to run it up often?
I remember reading how it had survived.
 

Ash Bridge

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And knowing Mr Cowley rather well now, I'm fully expecting questions 4 & 5 to be along the lines of.....Will it fit in the back of my Mercedes van, then......How much are you asking for it? :lol: ;)
 

Cowley

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And knowing Mr Cowley rather well now, I'm fully expecting questions 4 & 5 to be along the lines of.....Will it fit in the back of my Mercedes van, then......How much are you asking for it? :lol: ;)
I’m holding out for a Maybach due to the Mercedes connection.
My friend Paul is interested in the MAN engine for his Fiesta though :lol:.
 

Cowley

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Probably easier to fit the Fiesta in the MAN! :D ;)

:lol: I could imagine him revving it up and the engine staying still while the car spins round.
Anyway I told him not to be a fool - his car runs on petrol and he’d probably end up putting the wrong fuel in it at Sainsbury’s...
 

A0wen

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Chaps, it's all a bit hypothetical without a fair few million to back up a newbuild locomotive.
Business Case means people prepared to donate to a project, and there is not the funds. Most new build steam save a few with big money backers grind to a halt on the crank axle.
Lets be frank, of the 12 surviving hydraulic mainline locos about 5 and a half work, they are beautiful, difficult to maintain, with few spares, the guys on them do a sterling job and would hate all that expertise to flee to a newbuild 41 at the expense of others.
The 41 is an engineering nightmare, unless you made an electrical lookalike.
The transmission poked through the centre pivot and lay close to the centre axle.
The 2 spare 42/43 bogies are retained by their owners for rare spare parts.
If ONSLAUGHT ever comes up for sale is the only realistic way!
A proper new build NBL seems beyond us.
The Baby Deltic shows us the way.

This post pretty much sums up the situation. Big diesels are expensive and complex beasts to keep working - and there's one or two large hydraulic's which have been laid up a while - 1048 springs to mind.

Not sure there would be any point in reconstructing a Class 43 - visually they're pretty much identical to the Class 42 of which 2 survived. Yes there are some engine differences, but does that make a meaningful difference big enough to justify reconstruction? Probably not.

The Baby Deltic project is exactly the right idea - they've found a suitable donor from which to build their project and in doing so are filling a gap in preservation - a bit like some of the ex-Barry wrecks are being used to recreate extinct GWR locos.

There are, no doubt, a couple of gaps in diesel preservation - one of the LMS twins being the most obvious one by far which a project exists for using the same approach as the Baby Deltic project. Yes a Class 21, 22 or 29 or even D600 Warship would be nice - but what would be a suitable donor from which to work in the way the Baby Deltic project has?

In the short term I think the focus really needs to be on supporting those projects already in flight - the ELR has got both the Class 15 and 28 both of which haven't been in service since the day they were withdrawn by BR - and that's over 40 years ago now. Lets see those sorted, the Baby Deltic complete and some of the other longer term preservation projects before embarking on some unrealistic pipe-dreams.
 

DarloRich

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I get very confused by these funny western things which all seem the same but all seem to be different. How come so few made it into preservation?

Give me a Deltic any-day ;)
 

Taunton

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I get very confused by these funny western things which all seem the same but all seem to be different. How come so few made it into preservation?
They actually worked well for the vast majority of the time. The key issue for all hydraulics was the decision to give up steam heating, and do instead ETH tapped from the generator - which in their case, they had not got ...

The engineering support they needed was substantial, but there was a notable group at Laira who lived in the city, understood high-speed large diesels and their accompaniments, and who brought their expertise - from the Royal Navy, joining the railway in mid life after dealing with ship diesel engines, and developing a substantial expertise with keeping them going. This was actually a longstanding tradition at Plymouth for all grades, to come out of the Navy and go onto the railway there. Even the restaurant car crews were commonly ex Navy stewards. Does it still apply?
 

Bevan Price

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North British was a brilliant loco builder - of steam locos. Somehow, they never made the transition into buildng consistently reliable main line diesel locos. From the LMR prototype 10800 to the Classes 41,43, 21, 22 & 29, they all proved to be unreliable and had short lives.

I recall that someone did try a scheme to try and preserve D601, but it failed to attract enough funds. Remember at that time, most of the "preservation" funds were being directed towards rescuing large numbers of derelict steam locos still at Barry.
 
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