Provisionaly authorized for prosecution - southeastern

I went into Journey Planner and did as furlong and Romilly suggested. They are right. the fare is the same. But at the same time if I search for trains from Ladywell to London Terminals & Lewisham to London terminals in 'Season Ticket calculator' the price difference show up. Can this anomaly help in my case?

Exactly what conversation took place on the day?

Come to think of it, I am also interested in when you will be eligible to apply ILR, and under which route? I think depending on your eligibility, you may have different "preferred" approaches. It may not be a black and white matter in your case, and you may have to balance a few factors against each other.

Samintrble said:

On 16th oct, I was travelling from Ladywell station to London bridge on a season ticket from Lewisham to London terminals. I was stopped by a Revenue Protection officer and put under caution. He grilled me for 15 mins - Initially, I told him that I was not aware my ticket is valid only from Lewisham station and not from other stations of Lewisham Council. After his explanation, I understood that I was wrong and co-operated with him.

Click to expand...

You were not wrong.

Lewisham to London Terminals is valid via Ladywell, and you can get itineraries for this journey.

Samintrble said:

I am in a very difficult situation. I will be eligible to apply for ILR in January but a court summons and criminal conviction will reduce my chances of getting ILR to zero!

Click to expand...

If you are taken to court, appoint a reputable solicitor who is experienced in fare evasion matters, and you will surely win the case, as the ticket you held was valid.

For example the forum member who fought the now defunct First Capital Connect a few years ago regarding a ticket from London to Brookmans Park being used via Hatfield (for which FCC's own website generated itineraries at the time) highly recommended Penman Sedgwick LLP.

Another forum member commented to me that this case reminded him of the Slade Green to Denmark Hill ticket, which is valid via Dartford, but which Southeastern didn't (and perhaps still don't) like people using via Dartford. (See Slade Green - Denmark Hill via Dartford dispute if you're interested)

Well, you're going to need to learn more than you ever thought you wanted to know about railway fares to understand why this is valid!

You can use your Season Ticket up to, and including, its expiry date for any number of journeys between the stations and/or within the zone(s) shown on it at any time of day. It may be used at intermediate stations, and on any permitted route, unless a route or any other restrictions are specified on the ticket. Details are available where these tickets are issued.

Click to expand...

The websites produce itineraries that confirm that Lewisham->Ladywell->London Bridge is a permitted route and so you are allowed to use the ticket at an intermediate station - Ladywell. Permitted routes are ridiculously complicated and explained on the RDG website.

If you have changed your ticket as a result of incorrect information from the train company, you might be able to obtain compensation from them (restoring the original ticket), and even report the incident to the Office of Rail and Road to investigate whether the train company is in breach of the Consumer Regulations and whether action needs to be taken.

You've also got an option to report the company to the Department for Transport for breaching its franchise agreement by failing to accept a valid ticket. So taking everything together you (or a solicitor acting on your behalf) should have a decent position from which to negotiate a settlement - at a basic level, compensation for breach of contract.

One caveat - this all assumes there was nothing else wrong with the ticket that you haven't told us about and that it was exactly the ticket identified.

bb21 said:

Exactly what conversation took place on the day?

Come to think of it, I am also interested in when you will be eligible to apply ILR, and under which route? I think depending on your eligibility, you may have different "preferred" approaches. It may not be a black and white matter in your case, and you may have to balance a few factors against each other.

Click to expand...

Conversation with the Revenue Protection Officer

I put my Season(paper) ticket through the barriers at London Bridge station but the door didn't open. That day there were Revenue Protection officers at the ticket barrier. One of them asked me to move back and started a discussion
The officer asked me: Where are you coming from.
Officer: If you came from Lewisham then the paper ticket should have worked at the ticket barrier in Lewisham station too.Tell me honestly where are you coming from.
I said Lewisham
Officer put me under 'caution' and opened his notebook to write the details.
I said Lewisham
Officer asked someone at the ticket counters to check my travel history for last week.
Officer: said you didn't use the ticket at Lewisham station. Tell me where you are coming from?
I said: I came from Ladywell station which is in Lewisham Council.
Officer: What is your address, postcode
I gave my address & postcode.
Officer: Your home is near Ladywell station then you should have bought a ticket from Ladywell station only which is in Zone 3 instead of from Lewisham station which is in zone 2.How many days in the week do you use this ticket.
I said: I believed that my ticket includes travel from Ladywell station. I mostly work from home and don't use the train every day. Sometimes I travel from Ladywell station and sometimes from Lewisham.
Officer: If this case goes to court this information that you used the ticket because 'you believe' can be used against you.
Officer: How many times have you used the card to travel between Ladywell and London Terminals in last week between Monday to Friday.
I said: I used every day from Monday to Friday morning and evening between Ladywell and London Bridge/London Cannon Street. So total 10 journeys.
Officer: Do you remember the timing when you made these journeys?
I said: Inwards journeys (Ladywell to London Terminals) around 8:30 to 9:00 AM and outwards journeys (London Bridge/ Cannon Street to Ladywell) around 6:15 pm.
Officer: Write your address, phone number in my notebook and sign it for me.
I put down my address, phone number and signed.

There is only one missing information. I had lived in that Ladywell address for previous 4-5 years and had moved to the new address on the other side of the Ladywell Park in in July. The incident happened in Oct but I still gave my previous address (was stressed out). In my reply to the letter sent by SouthEastern Prosecution Manager, I have given my new address and also mentioned in brackets - Recently moved.
My new home is between Catford Bridge station and Ladywell station. Since this incident, I have been buying monthly/weekly ticket from Catford Station. But, I like walking through the park and still use Ladywell station to travel to London.

I will be eligible to apply for ILR based on spending 5 years on a Tier 2 General and my employer still would employ me at the appropriate salary.

I'm a little unclear as to why a Lewisham to London Terminals season ticket would not be expected to operate the gates at Lewisham? Had the ticket expired? I'm also puzzled about how he thinks he can check journey history on a paper ticket.

MikeWh said:

I'm a little unclear as to why a Lewisham to London Terminals season ticket would not be expected to operate the gates at Lewisham? Had the ticket expired? I'm also puzzled about how he thinks he can check journey history on a paper ticket.

Click to expand...

Hi Mike
1) There was a typo mistake, the words should be 'should have' instead of shouldn't have. I have corrected it in the previous message.
2) I am not sure how he was able to check the journey history from my season (paper) ticket. He gave my ticket to an operator at the ticket counter, who replied back saying something which I couldn't hear. I thought that the operator was able to know my history by looking into her computer system. The officer asked me that you used the ticket for 5 days at London terminals but didn't swipe at Lewisham. I said yes, that's true, used the ticket from Ladywell to London and back

It didn't operate the barriers at London Bridge so the ticket inspector was saying how did you get in at Lewisham as it shouldn't have worked there either. Of course, despite this, it could have stopped working in the time between!

A Challenge said:

It didn't operate the barriers at London Bridge so the ticket inspector was saying how did you get in at Lewisham as it shouldn't have worked there either. Of course, despite this, it could have stopped working in the time between!

Click to expand...

agreed

Samintrble said:

Hi Mike
1) There was a typo mistake, the words should be 'should have' instead of shouldn't have. I have corrected it in the previous message.
2) I am not sure how he was able to check the journey history from my season (paper) ticket. He gave my ticket to an operator at the ticket counter, who replied back saying something which I couldn't hear. I thought that the operator was able to know my history by looking into her computer system. The officer asked me that you used the ticket for 5 days at London terminals but didn't swipe at Lewisham. I said yes, that's true, used the ticket from Ladywell to London and back

Click to expand...

I wasn’t aware you could check a journey history on a paper ticket and I didn’t think the ticket even recorded that information.

An Oyster, for sure - yes you can check the journey history. But I don’t think that’s true for a paper ticket.

A Challenge said:

It didn't operate the barriers at London Bridge so the ticket inspector was saying how did you get in at Lewisham as it shouldn't have worked there either. Of course, despite this, it could have stopped working in the time between!

Click to expand...

Several years ago, I had a monthly season ticket from Elstree-Borehamwood to Chessington that wouldn't work at Blackfriars. It worked at ELS but not at central London stations. RPI said that was because it wasn't valid for central London stations!

bb21, furlong, yorkie and everyone else who has already helped me a lot. Can you please suggest anything further after reading my interview with the officer? In case the TOC decides to drag me to court, what is the possibility of getting away with an out of court settlement?

You might send a further response robustly explaining that after further enquiries you now believe the ticket was in fact valid after all, providing clear reasons for this belief, and asking for compensation to put you back into the situation you would have been in had you not acted on what you now think was incorrect information, reminding the company of its obligations and mentioning the possibilities of involving other authorities as you see fit if the matter is not settled to your satisfaction.

furlong said:

To repeat one more question - did the actual train you used on the day stop at Lewisham or not?

Click to expand...

Presumably not if it was a Charing Cross train although I don't see what difference it makes? If I'm understanding this correctly the OP travelled from Ladywell (barely a stones throw from Lewisham town centre) on a Lewisham to London ticket, I don't know what the price difference is but it can't be much?

I read through the Routing guide. Lewisham and London Group are Routing points. Travel is allowed via BR or VL map as shown in Section C (the "yellow pages") .


Further, the routing maps shows the BR (London Bridge - Local routes) and VL(London Victoria & Blackfriars to Lewisham) are the permitted routes. I can't see why the ticket would be valid if Routing guide is used? Could you guys suggest please?

In this case, you don't need to look for mapped routes to find whether your route was permitted. This is because the shortest route, and any route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route (and that doesn't involve a double-back), is a permitted route.

Unless they have stuck in a specific "negative" easement like they did for the Theobalds Grove/Cheshunt three mile routing

Johngill100 said:

Unless they have stuck in a specific "negative" easement like they did for the Theobalds Grove/Cheshunt three mile routing

Click to expand...

Sorry I didn't understand that.

Samintrble said:

Sorry I didn't understand that.

Click to expand...

A negative easement is a rule which says that something which would normally be allowed isn't. In this example, a route which is less than three miles longer than a permitted route (and so should be allowed) is not.

Can I ask how this situation has been resolved? have you managed to reach settlement?

with the help of a solicitor. Unfortunately, all the advises given here didn't help me.

Samintrble said:

with the help of a solicitor. Unfortunately, all the advises given here didn't help me.

Click to expand...

Could you please give some advise on dealing with Southeastern, based on your experience. I have just recieved the letter “ provisionaly authorized for prosecution” and are planning to reply and ask for the settlement? Thanks in advance!

Samintrble said:

with the help of a solicitor. Unfortunately, all the advises given here didn't help me.

Click to expand...

Also if you please dont mind to share which law firm have you aplied to? Thanks again!

Guest159 said:

Could you please give some advise on dealing with Southeastern, based on your experience.

Click to expand...

As already noted on the other thread you started, it is very difficult to provide any meaningful advice if we don't have any information about the incident. It's like going to the doctor and asking for a prescription but not telling her what the symptoms are.

Samintrble said:

with the help of a solicitor. Unfortunately, all the advises given here didn't help me.

Click to expand...

I am really sorry for bothering but I have one more question pls. My lawyer says that if I get a settlement with Southeastern I do not need to sign any document or agreement, I will only need to pay money and thats it. I am not sure about it, is this something you have done during your settlement? Thanks for help in advance!