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Metropolitan line to Watford junction cancelled

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MatthewRead

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How can you say there are no capacity issues - I live on the Overground section north of Harrow & Wealdstone and peak evening services are overfull when they arrive at Harrow. And the Overground going south in the morning peak is standing room only by Wembley. There are capacity issues, but only in the peak. Reasons: 1. London Midland is not forced to make all but its longest distance services call at all stations - Harrow, Bushey, Watford Jcn. 2. Overground service is not boosted in the peak and it should be, either by Bakerloo peak extension to Watford or Overground peak boost.
I think they are going to do the latter.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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Another would have once been useful access to the WCML Expresses. However, ever since Virgin decided to dump most of the Watford Junction express stops, to considerable inconvenience of NW London/adjacent Herts and Bucks, this doesn't apply any more.

I imagine that will change when HS2 arrives, since the most plausible scenario for the WCML would then be that the current Virgin services are re-cast into slower services that stop at places like Watford Junction and Milton Keynes, providing links between those places and the North/Midlands. For places along the met/Chiltern line, getting to Euston is slow, and to Old Oak Common difficult, so being able to connect to WCML services at Watford would probably appeal significantly compared to trying to reach an HS2 station. Of course, by then there'll probably be an East-West rail connection from Aylesbury to Milton Keyes, but it probably won't be frequent, and may require an additional change at Aylesbury, so is unlikely to be an attractive option for people living nearer to or in London.

1. London Midland is not forced to make all but its longest distance services call at all stations - Harrow, Bushey, Watford Jcn.

That one is probably a good thing at the moment. My experience of LM is they are frequently packed out between London and Watford Junction as it is. More capacity required before they could sensibly stop anywhere else.
 

Lrd

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There is a timetable change on the Bakerloo and Overground in the next week or so which I believe has enhancements to the Overground.

The Working Timetable is available on the TfL website for download, the Bakerloo and Overground are combined into one called Bakerloo...
 

D365

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The Working Timetable is available on the TfL website for download, the Bakerloo and Overground are combined into one called Bakerloo...

Really? Where's the stock for that coming from?
 

Lrd

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Really? Where's the stock for that coming from?
I've not looked at it, it could all be codswallop but I was told the timetable was changing for Overground improvements...

They could be using 172s while the GOBLIN is closed... :smile:
 

D365

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Ah, I thought you implied the Bakerloo is being extended back to WFJ...
 

deltic

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Could Met continue running into Watford while Chiltern run a new service from Amersham/Aylesbury into Watford Junc - would reduce need to play around with power supply, no platform issues at Watford Junc and reduce size of 2 intermediate stations all of which are I understand are some of the reasons why costs are going through the roof
 

causton

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Could Met continue running into Watford while Chiltern run a new service from Amersham/Aylesbury into Watford Junc - would reduce need to play around with power supply, no platform issues at Watford Junc and reduce size of 2 intermediate stations all of which are I understand are some of the reasons why costs are going through the roof

Can't see that solving the issue.

People want direct trains to London, not going from a fancy new station and having to then change at Rickmansworth or Watford Junction for a train to somewhere useful.

And where will Chiltern get the stock from to run a glorified branch line? Already got the Abbey line from Watford, don't need two short infrequent branch lines :lol:
 

deltic

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That's what happened with the former Croxley Branch most of the time i.e. Changing trains to get into London - I'm sure you can find some rolling stock in 2-3 years time.

Better some rail service than no rail service at all
 

bluegoblin7

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by Bakerloo peak extension to Watford

Presumably as an LU timetabler you know exactly why this cannot and will not happen even in the medium term.

Quite aside from the many millions required to reinstate fourth rail to Watford (to modern standards, of course) and any other peripheral enabling works, there simply isn't the rolling stock available. In common with most LU lines the Bakerloo has a very high stock utilisation, but is this compounded by the age of the rolling stock. One further peak hours train was removed from the timetable last year (or was it the year before...?) to allow for the Heavy Overhaul and life extension works at Acton Works, although tightening up of timings allowed this service to be re-instated at the last timetable change by working the remaining fleet harder. All of that adds up.

To run a service to WFJ in the peaks you need to remove Queen's Park shuttles to allow for the extended running times, in turn reducing capacity in the central section where arguably it is needed the most. In turn this would likely need a major peak hours recast, and also a reworking on all of the driving diagrams to meet the existing agreements and parameters. If only it was as simple as extended a train, eh?!

There is a timetable change on the Bakerloo and Overground in the next week or so which I believe has enhancements to the Overground.

The Working Timetable is available on the TfL website for download, the Bakerloo and Overground are combined into one called Bakerloo...

WTT43 takes effect from Sunday 10 December and is available here: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/wtt-43-bakerloo-10-december-2017.pdf.

This timetable incorporates the following revisions:

All Week

London Overground have improved their late evening services to operate every 20 minutes between Watford Junction and London Euston until close of traffic. In consequence, Bakerloo Line services have been revised after 22.00.

Sundays
Last northbound trains have been revised:
The last northbound London Overground train has been revised to depart London Euston 10 minutes later at 23.57. In consequence, the 23.37 Elephant & Castle to Harrow & Wealdstone Bakerloo Line service has been revised to terminate at Queen’s Park. A new last train connection between these two trains has been introduced at Queen’s Park.

There's no significant uplift to the Overground service, and it definitely doesn't involve the use of the 172s...
 

Clip

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Can't see that solving the issue.

People want direct trains to London, not going from a fancy new station and having to then change at Rickmansworth or Watford Junction for a train to somewhere useful.

:lol:

People also want to travel to Watford too funnily enough
 

MatthewRead

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I've not looked at it, it could all be codswallop but I was told the timetable was changing for Overground improvements...

They could be using 172s while the GOBLIN is closed... :smile:
DMU's can't use the DC New Line Platforms at Euston they are too enclosed. I think 150's have worked on the new lines in the past but not into the usual platforms at Euston.
 

Lrd

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DMU's can't use the DC New Line Platforms at Euston they are too enclosed. I think 150's have worked on the new lines in the past but not into the usual platforms at Euston.
Using 172s was meant as a joke. Do they even have tripcocks?
 

Mojo

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Using 172s was meant as a joke. Do they even have tripcocks?
I don't even think they can even be physically fitted due to the types of bogies in use. Chiltern don't have them on their 172s and the new design of "lightweight" bogies was given at the time as the reason for them not being installed.
 

Mojo

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DMU's can't use the DC New Line Platforms at Euston they are too enclosed. I think 150's have worked on the new lines in the past but not into the usual platforms at Euston.
The Concession Agreement states that from May 2018 they will not have access to the DC platforms at Euston but will have "one dedicated, ungated platform on the far eastern side of London Euston Station" which is AC-only. Is this still going to be the position; if so I expect no issues with 172s in this case?
 

LU_timetabler

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There are no diesels planned on the Watford DC lines - that I'm aware of. The timetable change this year is an uplift in Overground late evening services to stay at every 20 mins instead of dropping back to every 30. The change in a year's time will uplift Overground to 4tph with the new 710s.

The only ways to provide an enhanced peak service to Watford Jcn on this route is either a costly re-enabling and additional rolling stock for the Bakerloo or the use of some EMUs or possibly DMUs by Overground. In the short term it has to be Overground, but in the long term, with the Bakerloo extension to Lewisham and thus new rolling stock, it might be more realistic to consider peak running to Watford.

Perhaps London Midland need to add in a second Euston - Harrow - Bushey - Watford only service somewhere in the peak?

There is indeed an extreme shortage of rolling stock on the Bakerloo, especially as 2 trains are currently taken up for fleet overhaul at Acton. A pity they didn't think to convert a few more 72 Mark I's for use on Bakerloo.
 

MatthewRead

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There are no diesels planned on the Watford DC lines - that I'm aware of. The timetable change this year is an uplift in Overground late evening services to stay at every 20 mins instead of dropping back to every 30. The change in a year's time will uplift Overground to 4tph with the new 710s.

The only ways to provide an enhanced peak service to Watford Jcn on this route is either a costly re-enabling and additional rolling stock for the Bakerloo or the use of some EMUs or possibly DMUs by Overground. In the short term it has to be Overground, but in the long term, with the Bakerloo extension to Lewisham and thus new rolling stock, it might be more realistic to consider peak running to Watford.

Perhaps London Midland need to add in a second Euston - Harrow - Bushey - Watford only service somewhere in the peak?

There is indeed an extreme shortage of rolling stock on the Bakerloo, especially as 2 trains are currently taken up for fleet overhaul at Acton. A pity they didn't think to convert a few more 72 Mark I's for use on Bakerloo.
I've made another thread about this on the Allocations, Diagrams and Timetables thread. Please lets stick to what this thread is specifically about.
 

LU_timetabler

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It's a pity MLX is now too expensive for its own justification. Watford's rush-hour traffic is hideous, and it would have helped to relieve this. I hope either the Council finds the extra funding needed, or someone takes a detailed look at the benefits analysis in the hopes the increased costs can be better justified.
 
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