TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
Regarding post #29
Meh, ok.
Meh, ok.
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Greenford branch
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They aren't spare, they are earmarked for "wmtrains". If the leases are already signed, LO wouldn't have the option.
It might however be possible to wire it very cheaply as some kind of spur, but of course Windermere wasn't done on that basis so no chance.
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
That’s interesting - considering WM 172s have different front ends, if I ran a TOC I’d want trains of the same class to be homogeneous. I think they’d do well sent off to Chiltern.
I read it somewhere but I can't remember where, possibly in another thread on this forum? I think a x15 minute daytime frequency could be justified.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
They'll have 4 different types of 350 soon enough
Externally identical though.
I think in the case of the Overground, it's fine to have branded services that run from one TfL/LO station to another TfL/LO station, people understand lines on the tube map. The problem is finding stabling and maintenance depots for a tiny service like this.
xotGD
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Single change at Ealing Broadway surely?
The Greenford branch doesn't run to Ealing Broadway, apart from the last train of the day to Paddington and first train of the day from Paddington; it is a shuttle from West Ealing.
Having said that, since the original diagrams showing what trains will be stopping at stations were published, some changes were announced including an extra 2 tph, I haven't seen anywhere stating where these will call, so it may provide a single interchange for the Greenford branch?
xotGD
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Things have changed since I lived in Ealing. I used to catch a Greenford service home from Padd every day.
pdeaves
Established Member
Yes, things have changed. A new bay platform was provided at West Ealing a year or so ago (maybe a little more) and the through service cut back. All part of the general 'keep the relief lines clear for Crossrail' policy.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Also to allow GWR to introduce the half hourly Hayes shuttles to give passengers of Acton Main Line a better experience than a 2car 165
More importantly, it has given passengers at Southall a more even off peak timetable by reducing the 23 minute gaps twice an hour down to a much better 15 minutes. While in the peak it gives them another service they are guaranteed to be able to board (if only my fellow passengers actually used the full length of the train in order to take the most advantage of it…
e.g. evening peak loads of seats in Coach 5 while you can't even move in Coaches 1-2)700007
Established Member
As someone who loves the Greenford branch and a former local of it, knows the ins and outs of it for several years now, I fear the line is going to face closure in several years from now. I was against the cut to London Paddington but unfortunately it still went ahead. The line is important for the locals traveling into Central London, especially as the three intermediate stations (South Greenford, Castle Bar Park and Drayton Green) suffer from poor transport links and connectivity.
South Greenford only has one bus that properly serves it (the 95 from Southall to Shepherd's Bush) but it is unreliable as it uses the A40 dual carriageway for most of it's length. Perivale on the Central line isn't too far a walk, but it's not a pedestrian friendly walk, especially during the late hours when a few dodgy events can occur from time to time.
Castle Bar Park also only has one bus that serves it, the E11, but it doesn't take you very far (it's a very local service) and is usually every 20 or 30 minutes most days and is quite often at capacity (it's a 1-door 8.9m single decker). Similar situation at Drayton Green.
Since the cut back, the timetabling was poorly done, unfortunately. There is no clock face timetable like there used to be which is quite annoying. It's INCREDIBLY easy to miss the connection - this line is supposed to have a held connection for the mainline trains, in a similar situation to the Mayflower line out in Essex (the branch line won't leave until the intercity has pulled up and let passengers off for a few minutes to allow a transfer). Very often the timetable gives from as little as 2 to 3 minutes (it has been increased to at least 4 since) to change between a 387 and a Greenford line service. But half the time the H&H service leaves London Paddington late, causing unfortunately a 30 or 35 minute wait for the next train. Usually in that case, you're better off waiting for an E1 or E11 bus to your final destination.
The line, despite being in zone 3 and 4 London, in heavily residential areas, still has no Sunday service at all and barely has a late evening service for that matter. Although noted that there is actually a later train now leaving Greenford after 2215 most nights and continues to London Paddington (last train used to be the 2146).
The state of the line is slowly starting to deteriorate in recent years, with no staff at the stations bar at Castle Bar Park during some weekday mornings. South Greenford has a lot of overgrown platforms and I have seen a few too many passenger incidents happen up there. Reliability is also dropping and it's putting off passengers using this line outside the peaks. I honestly feel that DfT and/or GWR has a long term ambition to kill off this line.
As some people did say, there was a pledge that GWR would, upon cutting the line back to West Ealing, increase the line to every 15 minutes. This has not happened yet, they've gone quiet on it and there is no clear intention to at the moment. Whether there is plans to do this when TfL Rail takes over in May, I don't know. As it stands, keeping it every 30 minutes is saving them money as the line now only requires one train to operate (previously was two when it went Paddington). On a lot of Saturdays, it often runs once an hour instead as well.
I have seen the line busy before - come to West Ealing for a departure around 1730, it is surprisingly still busy with most of the loadings going to Castle Bar Park - quite a lot of seats get taken on the 2-car service. The line has so much potential, but I am saddened to not see this be fulfilled.
South Greenford only has one bus that properly serves it (the 95 from Southall to Shepherd's Bush) but it is unreliable as it uses the A40 dual carriageway for most of it's length. Perivale on the Central line isn't too far a walk, but it's not a pedestrian friendly walk, especially during the late hours when a few dodgy events can occur from time to time.
Castle Bar Park also only has one bus that serves it, the E11, but it doesn't take you very far (it's a very local service) and is usually every 20 or 30 minutes most days and is quite often at capacity (it's a 1-door 8.9m single decker). Similar situation at Drayton Green.
Since the cut back, the timetabling was poorly done, unfortunately. There is no clock face timetable like there used to be which is quite annoying. It's INCREDIBLY easy to miss the connection - this line is supposed to have a held connection for the mainline trains, in a similar situation to the Mayflower line out in Essex (the branch line won't leave until the intercity has pulled up and let passengers off for a few minutes to allow a transfer). Very often the timetable gives from as little as 2 to 3 minutes (it has been increased to at least 4 since) to change between a 387 and a Greenford line service. But half the time the H&H service leaves London Paddington late, causing unfortunately a 30 or 35 minute wait for the next train. Usually in that case, you're better off waiting for an E1 or E11 bus to your final destination.
The line, despite being in zone 3 and 4 London, in heavily residential areas, still has no Sunday service at all and barely has a late evening service for that matter. Although noted that there is actually a later train now leaving Greenford after 2215 most nights and continues to London Paddington (last train used to be the 2146).
The state of the line is slowly starting to deteriorate in recent years, with no staff at the stations bar at Castle Bar Park during some weekday mornings. South Greenford has a lot of overgrown platforms and I have seen a few too many passenger incidents happen up there. Reliability is also dropping and it's putting off passengers using this line outside the peaks. I honestly feel that DfT and/or GWR has a long term ambition to kill off this line.
As some people did say, there was a pledge that GWR would, upon cutting the line back to West Ealing, increase the line to every 15 minutes. This has not happened yet, they've gone quiet on it and there is no clear intention to at the moment. Whether there is plans to do this when TfL Rail takes over in May, I don't know. As it stands, keeping it every 30 minutes is saving them money as the line now only requires one train to operate (previously was two when it went Paddington). On a lot of Saturdays, it often runs once an hour instead as well.
I have seen the line busy before - come to West Ealing for a departure around 1730, it is surprisingly still busy with most of the loadings going to Castle Bar Park - quite a lot of seats get taken on the 2-car service. The line has so much potential, but I am saddened to not see this be fulfilled.
All good point but the fact is that running a 2-car unit into Paddington was not the best use of that path. The Hayes shuttles load surprisingly well even though they are 8-car.
Someone has made a decision that the Turbo which was freed up from the Greenford line by the changes is needed elsewhere more than it is needed on the branch. Maybe that will change one day.
The line does have some potential as a quick link to Crossrail from the outer reaches of the Central line as well as to passengers along its route.
Someone has made a decision that the Turbo which was freed up from the Greenford line by the changes is needed elsewhere more than it is needed on the branch. Maybe that will change one day.
The line does have some potential as a quick link to Crossrail from the outer reaches of the Central line as well as to passengers along its route.
The Greenford Line is something of a problem child and it is difficult to know what to do with it. It does have some strategic worth as a diversionary route and for turning stock, e.g. HSTs when the First Class ends up at the Country End.
It could have more potential if a turnback siding could have been constructed for it east of Ealing Broadway, allowing Greenford trains to terminate and start back there - Ealing Broadway would not only offer a direct link to the area's main shopping centre as well as far better onward connectivity with other rail services (not to mention same-platform interchange with services arriving from Paddington), and it would allow two trains to maintain a 20-minute-interval service (just). However I suspect the lack of available paths in between the freight and planned extra Crossrail services would make this a no-no.
It could have more potential if a turnback siding could have been constructed for it east of Ealing Broadway, allowing Greenford trains to terminate and start back there - Ealing Broadway would not only offer a direct link to the area's main shopping centre as well as far better onward connectivity with other rail services (not to mention same-platform interchange with services arriving from Paddington), and it would allow two trains to maintain a 20-minute-interval service (just). However I suspect the lack of available paths in between the freight and planned extra Crossrail services would make this a no-no.
700007
Established Member
Yes I was in support of an Ealing Broadway service even once an hour, but surely on a Sunday the service could start running and do Ealing or London Paddington? I imagine more paths would be available to enable this.
Even on Saturday too?
Even on Saturday too?
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MatthewRead
On Moderation
There use to be a turnback siding at Ealing Broadway but it has since been removed.
swt_passenger
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I suspect Crossrail's Sat and Sun off-peak will be basically the same as the weekday off-peak service, and the primary reason for curtailing the Greenford shuttle was to remove the flat crossing conflict with up Crossrail services. It won't really matter what day of the week it is, the problem will be the same.
I've since checked both the 2013 GWML RUS and the 2015 Western Route Study, and neither of those, or the 2015 franchise spec, mention increasing frequency on the Greenford shuttles, indeed the latter document suggests that capacity should be adequate in the long term up to 2043. I wonder who actually pledged an increase, and if it is online somewhere? Maybe a TfL idea?
The 2013 RUS also mentions something I wasn't aware of, that before Crossrail was approved there was a NR proposal to cut back the shuttle to West Ealing anyway, so that the GW franchise could introduce a 2 tph West Drayton to Paddington service. That was considered a much better use of terminus capacity. Was overtaken by events obviously, but shows that through running was already under review,
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NSEFAN
Established Member
True, although the reduced capacity will be less of an issue at weekends. Politically however I can foresee locals asking "well if you can run trains from Greenford to Paddington on weekends then why not weekdays?", and we end up with another Wimbledon loop saga...
Wilts Wanderer
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The Sunday service issue is complicated by the frequency by which the Relief Lines are blocked which would mean no connecting service would be available at West Ealing, potentially catching unsuspecting customers out. In the longer term if we ever get to a point of having a reliable 4-track railway at weekends this situation might change, but in the short-medium term it is unlikely to change.
It is a great shame that the Metropolitan District Railway never raised the capital to widen the cutting between Ealing Broadway and West Ealing so it could take over the branch...
It is a great shame that the Metropolitan District Railway never raised the capital to widen the cutting between Ealing Broadway and West Ealing so it could take over the branch...
LBOTG
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Will West Ealing gain a Sunday service under Crossrail? As my local station I'm really hoping for this, you should see how many people are waiting on the platform in the morning peak!
I'd propose using the Greenford branch for an experiment...
Post-Elizabeth Line, keep the service as-is for a couple of years, and see which way passenger numbers go. I'd fear downward, unless connections at West Ealing are quick and reliable.
Then one day:
-Put the line on the tube map as 'Elizabeth line link' (or something like that)
-Redecorate/rebrand the stations, with staff at all (and make accessible where practical)
-Up the service to 4tph* using a pair of Turbos internally refreshed with a dedicated livery (even if still GWR operated in practice)
...and see what that does to passenger numbers.
*4tph all day is not fully straightforward with the occasional freight paths on the route, and only one signal section each way from Drayton Green to Greenford South Jn, plus conflicting moves out of the bays at each end. Plus 4tph makes the line something like 'musical chairs' if a unit fails - one unit failing means the other has nowhere to go.
Post-Elizabeth Line, keep the service as-is for a couple of years, and see which way passenger numbers go. I'd fear downward, unless connections at West Ealing are quick and reliable.
Then one day:
-Put the line on the tube map as 'Elizabeth line link' (or something like that)
-Redecorate/rebrand the stations, with staff at all (and make accessible where practical)
-Up the service to 4tph* using a pair of Turbos internally refreshed with a dedicated livery (even if still GWR operated in practice)
...and see what that does to passenger numbers.
*4tph all day is not fully straightforward with the occasional freight paths on the route, and only one signal section each way from Drayton Green to Greenford South Jn, plus conflicting moves out of the bays at each end. Plus 4tph makes the line something like 'musical chairs' if a unit fails - one unit failing means the other has nowhere to go.
SWT_USER
Member
Yes, and about time too. It's a disgrace that Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton ML haven't had a Sunday service up to now.
cjohnson
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matt_world2004
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While it would take signalling/points work. The greenford gwr train would be best served running along the central line until west ruislip and then joining the chiltern mainline until high wycombe.
I suggested similar branding for Romford - Upminster some time ago which I thought would make more sense than having a detached section of LO. All the responses rubbished the idea because the line branding wouldn't match the TOC.
SWT_USER
Member
More likely to just skip Greenford and go to West Ruislip via Greenford South Jct? Don't think that would require any additional signals/ pointwork at least heading northbound.
Thanks to whoever posted the link to the consultation too. Will watch on with interest!
Is it really a 'disgrace'? It is just a case of using resources for the greater number of people - the limit being the two track railway needed to ensure maintenance access. TPTB have decided that they don't want 'fast' trains between Reading and London Paddington to take upward of 1 hour to complete their journeys on Sundays while still ensuring that the larger intermediate stations can have a stopping service and that means that local stops at the smallest stations can't all be provided.
A train calling at all stations between Slough and London Paddington takes about 40 minutes. Even if you flight services, as they do, on Sundays, putting in extra stops is likely to cause other users of the line to have a longer journey.
What is the engineering access once Crossrail is built? Will there still be two track railway over stretches of the line between Reading and Paddington?
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