• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Services which ought to have a refreshment trolley

Status
Not open for further replies.

route101

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
10,595
Glasgow Central - Dumfries - Carlisle Scotrail services were meant to have an on-board catering trolley service from April 2017 as per the Franchise agreement. It hasn't happened, which is not surprising given the financial difficulties Abellio seem to be experiencing lately.

Im sure they used to along with Stranraer . Im sure Stranraer services use to have seat reservations . Scotrail would need to base catering staff at central though .
If Edinburgh to Glasgow via Falkirk High has catering then why dosent via shotts !
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

MG11

Member
Joined
4 Nov 2017
Messages
638
How many? Enough to make it profitable? Which is actually the issue. If it was profitable then any TOC would do it. It clearly isn't, so they don't.
With good up-selling skills from the Host, yes it could profitable, in my opinion, bearing in mind that none of us know the sales statistics. From what I've seen, customers don't just buy a coffee, they buy a coffee and a shortbread or a cake. When people buy lunch on the train, they don't usually just buy a sandwich, they buy a sandwich + crisps + a drink (usually Cola/Sprite). That could add up to the best part of £10.
 

takno

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
5,038
With good up-selling skills from the Host, yes it could profitable, in my opinion, bearing in mind that none of us know the sales statistics. From what I've seen, customers don't just buy a coffee, they buy a coffee and a shortbread or a cake. When people buy lunch on the train, they don't usually just buy a sandwich, they buy a sandwich + crisps + a drink (usually Cola/Sprite). That could add up to the best part of £10.
Sandwiches crisps and a drink on most operators come into the meal deal at £5-5.50, which includes a decent range of snacks, often a hot sandwich, and a real-ish coffee. Nobody's going to pay the best part of a tenner for whatever they have left on the trolley and a cup of lukewarm instant.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
With good up-selling skills from the Host, yes it could profitable, in my opinion, bearing in mind that none of us know the sales statistics. From what I've seen, customers don't just buy a coffee, they buy a coffee and a shortbread or a cake. When people buy lunch on the train, they don't usually just buy a sandwich, they buy a sandwich + crisps + a drink (usually Cola/Sprite). That could add up to the best part of £10.

And those would be a meal deal aat less than that and you would have to sell a lot of them to make a profit.

you may never get to see the sales stats for all TOCs but take it from me - its very very difficult in this day and age too turn a profit on a trolley. It doesn't matter how many examples you give of what you think may work, from experience and knowledge of them at a couple of TOCs - they just end up costing money
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,013
Location
UK
Oh well if Twitter is the basis for the business case it will be a licence to print money. Perhaps all the cranks could form a company, think of the free mileage.

I think there are probably many services that could benefit, and it's important to consider the stopping pattern, time of day and other factors - as it's not that simple. As I said in another thread, it's unlikely regular commuters wouldn't already get their latte at the station in the morning/afternoon, so I'd run trolleys for leisure travellers and tourists.

I'd also consider what best to sell, depending on the time of year. You might want to focus more on hot drinks at some times, and maybe even sell ponchos or umbrellas/hats/gloves at other times if serving rural areas.

It would be good if TOCs that don't likely want to sit and work things out allowed third parties to offer to run services if they think they can make money, as a 'value add' for passengers which brings goodwill and possibly increased custom.
 

Statto

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2011
Messages
3,208
Location
At home or at the pub
A menu like this would give a good profit margin.
Tea £2.40
Coffe £2.60
Latte £2.90
Crisps £1.40
Popcorn £1.50
Sandwiches £4.50
Lager £4.50

Etc...Enough to cover staffing/facilities costs

£1.40 for crisps, prices like these are why most people go to shops away from the station/trolley service where they can buy stuff much cheaper like Tescos meal deal, sandwich/snack & drink around £3, similar offers in other supermarkets, even Boots has similar offers with not too much of a mark up at rail stations.
 

MG11

Member
Joined
4 Nov 2017
Messages
638
£1.40 for crisps, prices like these are why most people go to shops away from the station/trolley service where they can buy stuff much cheaper like Tescos meal deal, sandwich/snack & drink around £3, similar offers in other supermarkets, even Boots has similar offers with not too much of a mark up at rail stations.
Please bear in mind though, not all stations served by long distance trains have retail outlets, Beeston & Widnes are such examples. Loughborough has a station buffet, but that isn't always open, Long Eaton has no retail units either. On the Leeds-Nottingham route, which doesn't have a trolley service, Langley Mill, Alfreton & Dronfield don't have anywhere to buy food at the station, something which could be rectified with an on-board trolley, especially for passengers travelling to Leeds.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,013
Location
UK
Please bear in mind though, not all stations served by long distance trains have retail outlets, Beeston & Widnes are such examples. Loughborough has a station buffet, but that isn't always open, Long Eaton has no retail units either. On the Leeds-Nottingham route, which doesn't have a trolley service, Langley Mill, Alfreton & Dronfield don't have anywhere to buy food at the station, something which could be rectified with an on-board trolley, especially for passengers travelling to Leeds.

That's another good point. Many rural stations have no facilities. Some stations may have no facilities early morning either, when leisure travellers will be travelling to make the most of their day.

I don't pretend you could run them on any service, but I am convinced there are more profitable opportunities than current realised.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,818
Location
Yorks
But Cambridge (and King's Cross) already have more good quality coffee places that you can shake a stick at! Cambridge has 3 x AMT kiosks and the West Cornwall Pasty Company on the station alone plus Caffe Nero, Pret and the Ibis hotel right outside.

Nobody is going to buy on the train when you can get much superior quality coffee at the same price before boarding, without the uncertainty of 'will there or won't there be a trolley?'

Plus by the time the trolley has reached you, you'd have to scald down the coffee before King's Cross anyway (the 'Stansted Express conundrum')

Yes, but that's not much use if you're already on the train. Certainly on anything longer than an hour l often like a hot drink, so a trolley is often useful.
 

MG11

Member
Joined
4 Nov 2017
Messages
638
Yes, but that's not much use if you're already on the train. Certainly on anything longer than an hour l often like a hot drink, so a trolley is often useful.
Not to mention if you're going to a celebration or a day at the races, it's good to keep topped up on beer and wine. <:D
 

MG11

Member
Joined
4 Nov 2017
Messages
638
With good products, onboard catering can ensure repeat custom. Rail Gourmet certainly do high quality sandwiches. I bought this Urban Eat sandwich from them yesterday to show you all. It certainly looks like a premium product.View media item 2960
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
With good products, onboard catering can ensure repeat custom. Rail Gourmet certainly do high quality sandwiches. I bought this Urban Eat sandwich from them yesterday to show you all. It certainly looks like a premium product.View media item 2960

Genuinely premium products are a good way of charging the earth without annoying people. Ryanair learnt that a long time ago - the airline itself is cheap and nasty (there is one thing, and one thing alone, going for it, and that is that it is not Wizz), but the on board food and drink is well towards the premium end and really quite good, particularly the filter coffee cups which I'm happy to cough up a few quid for (nicer than Starbucks!)
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,556
I'm not sure catering runs at a profit anywhere on the network. It is seen as part of the service and as such the expense incurred to provide it is built into the ticket price in the same way the drivers wages are.

If that is the case I am surprised South West Trains and now South Western Railway offer catering. After all commuters are going to not travel to Waterloo and back if no catering was provided.

Has Southern seen a reduction of numbers traveling since they scraped their catering?
 

MG11

Member
Joined
4 Nov 2017
Messages
638
Catering can also be an incentive for passengers to travel by rail vice car etc. It also give the TOC a good image when it comes to things like franchise renewals.
 

Harbouring

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2017
Messages
262
If that is the case I am surprised South West Trains and now South Western Railway offer catering. After all commuters are going to not travel to Waterloo and back if no catering was provided.

Has Southern seen a reduction of numbers traveling since they scraped their catering?

Catering on SWR does make sense for the longer distance journeys, and the fact that on the AM Peak it might be hard to get something hot to drink from the stations south of Guildford.

On the west Coastway where Southern compete with SWR for London business the tickets are so much cheaper that catering probably has little effect on the incentive to travel that way.
 

MG11

Member
Joined
4 Nov 2017
Messages
638
I think some price increases could boost profitability though, XC currently charge 60p for Quavers, they retail in tesco at 80p. PJ's sandwiches on Scotrail start from just £2.60! There needs to be larger profit margins, and more accounting for services which don't turn a profit i.e. late night trains. Rail Gourmet seem to have good pricing, Tyrrell's crisps £1.20, water £1.90 etc.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
Please bear in mind though, not all stations served by long distance trains have retail outlets, Beeston & Widnes are such examples. Loughborough has a station buffet, but that isn't always open, Long Eaton has no retail units either. On the Leeds-Nottingham route, which doesn't have a trolley service, Langley Mill, Alfreton & Dronfield don't have anywhere to buy food at the station, something which could be rectified with an on-board trolley, especially for passengers travelling to Leeds.

They don't need them on the station though which you seem not to grasp. Look at Rugby for instance - yeah the station shop is adequate enough BUT theres a Tesco right outside where I can get enough beer for the train home cheaper than the buffet so why would I use it?

I think some price increases could boost profitability though, XC currently charge 60p for Quavers, they retail in tesco at 80p. PJ's sandwiches on Scotrail start from just £2.60! There needs to be larger profit margins, and more accounting for services which don't turn a profit i.e. late night trains. Rail Gourmet seem to have good pricing, Tyrrell's crisps £1.20, water £1.90 etc.

I do like your style with not letting this go but I think you should because if it did work then they would still be on the trains and I'm not sure how often we have to point this out to you
 

exile

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2011
Messages
1,336
Any reason why we can't have vending machines on trains as they do on some TGVs?
 

exile

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2011
Messages
1,336
Without access to the books we have to take the TOCs' protestations about "no profit" at face value.

But given how lucrative on-board catering is for low-cost airlines- many of whose routes are shorter in time than domestic train journeys- I'm a bit surprised.
But they have to employ the staff anyway.
 

MG11

Member
Joined
4 Nov 2017
Messages
638
Perhaps better advertising is key here, address a target market, i.e. business travellers and have posters up at stations saying things like we bring you lunch while you work?
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Yes, but that's not much use if you're already on the train. Certainly on anything longer than an hour l often like a hot drink, so a trolley is often useful.

You're really missing my point. Most people who'll have wanted a coffee will have had time and organisation to get one before (AMT have a particularly slick operation for this). The minority who haven't won't be in sufficient quantity to make a trolley service economical.

I suggest you get a fast train from Cambridge at any time of day and see the number of people already with coffee in hand.

Not to mention if you're going to a celebration or a day at the races, it's good to keep topped up on beer and wine. <:D

How pissed do you think people want to get in the 48 minutes between Cambridge and King's Cross?! Your typical Cantabridgian isn't of the 'how drunk can we get?' variety. Plus beer and wine would only keep the trolley going weekend evenings and Saturdays.

Catering can also be an incentive for passengers to travel by rail vice car etc. It also give the TOC a good image when it comes to things like franchise renewals.

'Good image' has literally nothing to do with whether a franchisee is more or less likely to be re-awarded to the franchise holder for a subsequent term.

Most people just want access to *something* should they require it for journeys of a certain duration. People would be put off travelling 4 and a half hours from London to Glasgow if they had no access to catering. But would not for 48 minutes from Cambridge to London.

Longer journeys involving changes of train almost always give access to refreshments on or near stations.
 

takno

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
5,038
Any reason why we can't have vending machines on trains as they do on some TGVs?
In the case of the food ones they take up a bunch of space. They also need to be refilled, which either means staff being on the train while it's on the move (at which point they might as well sell stuff direct) or longer turnarounds. Hot drink machines are also difficult in an environment where buffets won't sell hot drinks without a bag round them. At the end of the day they're not exactly classy either.
 

MG11

Member
Joined
4 Nov 2017
Messages
638
Having a Customer Host to upsell and promote the products is a better way of ensuring sales than just sticking some food in a vending machine and hoping for the best too.
 

PauloDavesi

Member
Joined
14 Dec 2011
Messages
149
For most people it is easier, cheaper, and gets a better quality product if they purchase refreshments either at the station, or at a local store before boarding the train. Why would you chose to have an over priced cup of luke warm instant coffee when it's possible to purchase a freshly brewed coffee from a coffee shop at, or near, the station?
It really is easier, and financially better, to purchase food and drink before boarding a train.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
15,823
Location
East Anglia
I must admit to buying on the station a lot of the time but I always buy something onboard at least once during the journey too. Keeps me happy :smile:
 

MG11

Member
Joined
4 Nov 2017
Messages
638
I must admit to buying on the station a lot of the time but I always buy something onboard at least once during the journey too. Keeps me happy :smile:
If you're travelling from Norwich to Liverpool direct though, you will probably feel like buying something else after 3 hours+ though. Hence a trolley is a good facility to have.
 

Parallel

Established Member
Joined
9 Dec 2013
Messages
3,929
I find generally the prices on the trains are similar to that of the outlets at the stations - just with less choice. If there's a supermarket nearby, that's usually the best option.

The only time I tend to use the catering trolley is if I am doing a very long distance journey, or a long-ish distance journey where there are no facilities near or on the station I boarded, or a long distance journey with changes when the connection times are short.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
15,823
Location
East Anglia
If you're travelling from Norwich to Liverpool direct though, you will probably feel like buying something else after 3 hours+ though. Hence a trolley is a good facility to have.

I do it on every route with catering I use across the UK & Europe for that matter. I've always made a beeline for trains with a cup & saucer at the top ever since I was a kid.
 

AY1975

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
1,748
Northern's Leeds - Nottingham services ought to have a trolley. (And run through to Carlisle, but that is off-topic!)

Yes, and so should Northern's York/Leeds-Blackpool services, and at least the Leeds-Heysham Port via Skipton (would be welcomed by passengers going to and from the Isle of Man). The latter is (or was until recently) often worked by Pacers, though.

I think there is now one Nottingham-Leeds train a day that is extended to Carlisle.

I've set up a separate thread on shortest-distance services with on-train catering and longest ones without at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/trivia-shortest-distance-services-with-on-board-catering-longest-ones-without.162983/
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top