South Eastern ITT - train service requirements

4tph Metro via Denmark Hill to Victoria sounds good. Also the Hayes line will seem a lot more attractive offering services to Victoria and Charing Cross over Cannon St.

The loss of Hastings services at Orpington will be frustrating. If I wish to travel to Hastings from West Dulwich, this will require a three train change at Orpington and Tonbridge which isn't ideal. At this rate, I'll probably end up travelling via Zone 1 to London Bridge and board there for the convenience, although it'll be at a premium.

There is still of course the option of travelling via East Croydon on Southern, but is too long.

Ze Random One said:

It seems to have been forgotten that the North Kent line will also get 2tph into Thameslink, and if St Paul's, the South Bank, or Fleet Street areas are your destination Blackfriars / City TL are often just as or more convenient. Obviously passengers for much of the West End will be better served by changing to Crossrail. Added to that, if you want parts of North London or indeed connections to the Midlands and North, the Thameslink trains will offer you a through or single connection journey opportunity, something that part of SE London has been lacking up to now.

The NKL area will be particularly well served from 2019, with direct trains to the East End (DLR), Docklands (DLR and Crossrail) City (Thameslink, SE and Crossrail) West End (Crossrail), North London (Thameslink) and Heathrow (Crossrail), as well as direct trains to the hubs of Liverpool Street, Kings Cross St Pancras and Paddington, and a single change or shortish walk from Euston and Waterloo.

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Indeed - the Thameslink addition is very welcome.

For me, I'm less concerned about journey opportunities to Charing Cross and more about timetabling (especially now it is a mixed-TOC line).

A train leaving Charlton and calling only at Blackheath and Lewisham takes roughly the same amount of time as a train leaving Charlton and calling at Westcombe Park, Maze Hill, Greenwich and Deptford.

If you add in stops to the first train at St Johns and New Cross, it will take significantly longer than the Southeastern and Thameslink trains going via Greenwich. Depending on the timetable, people might just sleep in a bit longer and get the next via Greenwich train, to arrive at the same time at London Bridge or Cannon Street.

In that circumstance, are the slower trains really making a full contribution to capacity on the line?

Barn said:

Indeed - the Thameslink addition is very welcome.

For me, I'm less concerned about journey opportunities to Charing Cross and more about timetabling (especially now it is a mixed-TOC line).

A train leaving Charlton and calling only at Blackheath and Lewisham takes roughly the same amount of time as a train leaving Charlton and calling at Westcombe Park, Maze Hill, Greenwich and Deptford.

If you add in stops to the first train at St Johns and New Cross, it will take significantly longer than the Southeastern and Thameslink trains going via Greenwich. Depending on the timetable, people might just sleep in a bit longer and get the next via Greenwich train, to arrive at the same time at London Bridge or Cannon Street.

In that circumstance, are the slower trains really making a full contribution to capacity on the line?

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I think the services via Lewisham from the Woolwich line should stop at New Cross for the connection to London Overground. I don't think 3-4 minutes extra on the trains run to stop at St. John's and New Cross as significant.

Woolwich and Abbey Wood should loose their fast trains on the SE network anyways as they have the Elizabeth Line that takes 18 minutes to Tottenham Court Road from Abbey Wood and to allow people that live in Zone 2 to have an easier time boarding trains in the peak.

Dmthomson said:

I think the services via Lewisham from the Woolwich line should stop at New Cross for the connection to London Overground. I don't think 3-4 minutes extra on the trains run to stop at St. John's and New Cross as significant.

Woolwich and Abbey Wood should loose their fast trains on the SE network anyways as they have the Elizabeth Line that takes 18 minutes to Tottenham Court Road from Abbey Wood and to allow people that live in Zone 2 to have an easier time boarding trains in the peak.

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I agree with this. No need for those fasts any more, given the squeeze on that line for the smaller stations. Faster patterns should still exist east of Abbey Wood...

Dmthomson said:

I think the services via Lewisham from the Woolwich line should stop at New Cross for the connection to London Overground. I don't think 3-4 minutes extra on the trains run to stop at St. John's and New Cross as significant.

Woolwich and Abbey Wood should loose their fast trains on the SE network anyways as they have the Elizabeth Line that takes 18 minutes to Tottenham Court Road from Abbey Wood and to allow people that live in Zone 2 to have an easier time boarding trains in the peak.

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You've answered your own question there. What benefit is there of stopping Woolwich-Blackheath trains at New Cross?

Woolwich eastwards, passengers can get to Whitechapel/Liverpool St (vice Shoreditch High Street) via the Lizzie Line from Woolwich or Abbey Wood.

St Johns, Lewisham and Blackheath will have other services to New Cross anyway.

Only benefit would be for Charltonites (of which not many would be heading to an ELL destination).

Dmthomson said:

I think the services via Lewisham from the Woolwich line should stop at New Cross for the connection to London Overground. I don't think 3-4 minutes extra on the trains run to stop at St. John's and New Cross as significant.

Woolwich and Abbey Wood should loose their fast trains on the SE network anyways as they have the Elizabeth Line that takes 18 minutes to Tottenham Court Road from Abbey Wood and to allow people that live in Zone 2 to have an easier time boarding trains in the peak.

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You've answered your own question there. What benefit is there of stopping Woolwich-Blackheath trains at New Cross?

Woolwich eastwards, passengers can get to Whitechapel/Liverpool St (vice Shoreditch High Street) via the Lizzie Line from Woolwich or Abbey Wood.

St Johns, Lewisham and Blackheath will have other services to New Cross anyway.

Only benefit would be for Charltonites (of which not many would be heading to an ELL destination).

There's no real benefit in stopping Woolwich line trains at New Cross for the Overground line, the DLR intersects with various parts of the line at Woolwich Arsenal, Greenwich and Lewisham for those heading to The Docklands, if they need the overground line they can then change at Shadwell and after 2018 of course Abbey Wood will get Crossrail so no real benefit for a stop at New Cross, Woolwich line trains did used to call at New Cross for the Plumstead to Cannon Street semi fasts long before ELL became the Overground and still people changed more at Lewisham than NX

The fast trains already have long fast runs east of Abbey Wood, its only bunched together west of Abbey Wood, hence why the existing semi fast service works, it benefits Medway and inner London, what I would do is add Plumstead and Erith as a fair compromise, Plumstead has about the same numbers as Charlton passenger wise and Erith is a town in a process of rejuvenation, I have this belief: Dartford and Gravesend are stoppers, Medway is semi fast/skip stop.

Thameslink would work better if it were re-routed via Lewisham, and since the Woolwich line is losing Charing X as a terminal they might as well do this, i think the future CX to Dartford via Sidcup should carry on through to Slade Green as a third Cannon Street service via Greenwich, have Sidcup as a CX and Victoria 6tph line only, and with the Bexleyheath line also going CX only would this not free up some capacity to restore 6tph Cannon Street via Greenwich service and therefore reroute Thameslink via Lewisham down onto the Core?

<quote>You've answered your own question there. What benefit is there of stopping Woolwich-Blackheath trains at New Cross?</quote> I did not ask a question, I was only replying to "Ze random one". I answered this in my earlier post.

On the Thameslink going via Lewisham subject, that would be worse option for that service as Lewisham Junction is more of a bottleneck junction than North Kent East Junction [where the Greenwich and SEML slow lines diverge] so it's already been determined that via Greenwich is the better route for it.

Medway anyways have Southeastern high speed and fast trains via Victoria and to London Bridge [in the peaks] via Chislehurst so I don't see why the metro lines to Dartford have to accommodate for the need for fast-skipping trains of Medway/Gravesham.

hassaanhc said:

Sorry, I meant that the other lines should have more stops at Lewisham (therefore agreeing with your point). It is definitely an important interchange (even if the station area itself isn't the nicest ) and allows cheaper non-Z1 fares to a vast area

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Lewisham is also set for a possible Westfields in the next decade, plus a possible Bakerloo extension too so Lewisham won't be removed anytime soon

NorthKent1989 said:

Lewisham is also set for a possible Westfields in the next decade, plus a possible Bakerloo extension too so Lewisham won't be removed anytime soon

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The growth in housing/flats in the Lewisham railway 'island' in the last 5-10 years has been astronomical!

Ianno87 said:

The growth in housing/flats in the Lewisham railway 'island' in the last 5-10 years has been astronomical!

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Yes growth around there has been of epic proportions, it was always a large urban area but its fast growing into another city centre for London, kinda like South London's very own Stratford.

I can see myself using New Eltham a lot more in the coming years, I'm glad that finally the Sidcup line has the fast trains, I never understood why the fasts went via Woolwich/Lewisham or Greenwich in the first place, they should have the all stoppers, including down to Medway with their new Thameslink service.

I don't see why they shouldn't not have stoppers from Medway.

Sidcup is probably a more important line anyway for the fasts in the coming years growth around there is rising, so I welcome it

Selkent Fellow said:

I can see myself using New Eltham a lot more in the coming years, I'm glad that finally the Sidcup line has the fast trains, I never understood why the fasts went via Woolwich/Lewisham or Greenwich in the first place, they should have the all stoppers, including down to Medway with their new Thameslink service.

I don't see why they shouldn't not have stoppers from Medway.

Sidcup is probably a more important line anyway for the fasts in the coming years growth around there is rising, so I welcome it

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Except from the 20th May, the last train from CHX down the Sidcup line Sun-Wed is now 23:33, meaning the 23:53 & 00:23 have now been cut out! Not ideal for those passengers who rely on the last train, which early week is always busy. There is also going to be no more 00:40 to Dartford via Sidcup from Cannon St either with the last service leaving nearly 2 hours earlier at 22:38 all week. It might be good news having the new semi-fasts during the day but it always seems to be 1 step forward 2 steps back for the Sidcup line!

JackTheLad said:

Except from the 20th May, the last train from CHX down the Sidcup line Sun-Wed is now 23:33, meaning the 23:53 & 00:23 have now been cut out! Not ideal for those passengers who rely on the last train, which early week is always busy. There is also going to be no more 00:40 to Dartford via Sidcup from Cannon St either with the last service leaving nearly 2 hours earlier at 22:38 all week. It might be good news having the new semi-fasts during the day but it always seems to be 1 step forward 2 steps back for the Sidcup line!

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I guess that is the negative as the late trains are needed.

Apparently from Dartford to London Bridge the new fasts via Sidcup will be several minutes faster, the Medway commuters should just change at Gravesend and be grateful for this new service and having a Thameslink route as well, wy should the Sidcup line get the worst service when the North Kent and Greenwich routes have had the best service for decades now, its fair to say that the Sidcup line needs the fast more

Plus I'm seeing possible Victoria trains too, what will happen to the loops then? Will be
Victoria - Lewisham - Sidcup - Woolwich - Cannon Street then and vice versa?

I think it is just today's Victoria - Dartford services running via Sidcup. But if 4tph then I'm not sure - perhaps two sets of Victoria looper services (Bexleyheath and Sidcup) and none to Dartford itself.