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South Western Railway disruption [11 December 2017]

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SpacePhoenix

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According to OTT it's just platform 1 that's now shut. The cables that were damaged, would they have been replaced at all back during the blockade?
 
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infobleep

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Not sure how the National Rail Enquiries App works but the 17.11 Surbtion to Waterloo is showing as delayed. The 18.08 Surbiton to Waterloo is showing with a delay of 2 hours 39 minutes. Neither train has left their starting station.

The 17.58 Surbtion to Guildford is delayed but isn't showing up unless you back in time.

Well back and then forward as back takes you past 17.11 and forward takes you from 17.11. That also hasn't left its starting station.

For a long time the 12.22 Woking to Surbtion was displayed with a large delay. Eventually it disappeared on the live view and it stuck on 6 hours and 2 minutes in delay time.

Why isn't the 17.58 showing when the 17.11 is. Both have delayed against them. Also both these trains are showing as delayed when others have a time against time but are also delayed. I thought after a set amount it would auto default to delayed and not show a train.

I'm not criticising anyone for this
Just very curious as to how it all works.

In times of disruption National Rail Enquiries definitely can't cope. I love the ability to see forwards and backwards for train running info though.
 

Loop & Link

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The info on the National Rail app/Live Departure Boards is fed from Darwin, which in turn can be fed from Tyrell or LICC Gui software.

So a train can be cancelled in Tyrell which will display on the CIS boards that it is cancelled, however you can then hide cancelled services so they don’t show at all on the screens and sometimes you can just hide infinitely delayed services which is what is likely to have happened to that 17:58.

With so many cancellations it’s possible some have been missed so will just show “Delayed”

Hope this helps, if I could post screen grabs on Tyrell/LICC it would perfectly illustrate what info is fed to feed CIS boards/NRE etc during disruption.
 

3141

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I had a meeting in London at 13.45, arranged at short notice. I caught the 12.20 from Overton using a super off-peak return. It terminated at Basingstoke "because of congestion in the Clapham Junction area" and I changed to the 12.35 which had started from Weymouth, and called additionally at Woking. At Woking the excellent guard asked people with luggage on the seats to put it on the racks as the train was about to get very crowded. We stopped at a signal somewhere SW of Wimbledon, and then moved from one signal to the next with a pause of several minutes at each one. At this time platforms 1 - 9 at Waterloo were closed. When we got to Wimbledon the guard announced he was seeking permission to release the doors, which he obtained, so I got out and caught the District Line to Mansion House, arriving for the meeting at 14.40. It was over by 15.10 and I got back to Waterloo at 15.29. Some trains were shown as cancelled, some weren't shown at all, and most were shown as delayed, starting with the 15.03. I hoped the 15.09 to Portsmouth via Eastleigh would appear and I could get to Basingstoke to get a Salisbury train starting from there, but only two trains showed up as operating, both of them suburban services. A customer services man doing a grand job under considerable pressure advised going to Paddington and thence to Reading. He couldn't say if GWR would accept my super off-peak return after 16.00 but thought that "on a day like this" they might turn a blind eye. As I was heading for the Underground a train was announced calling only at Woking and Farnham. At Paddington I asked if they were accepting tickets from Waterloo and was allowed through the barrier. I connected with the 18.07 starting from Basingstoke to Exeter, which was held for 20 minutes to allow connections from two other trains from Waterloo, and reached home at 18.40.

For the people trying to sort out this mess it must have been a nightmare. I was told at Waterloo that it was over half an hour since any mainline train had left there. Crew must have been well past their normal break times or not in the right place at all. By the time the full rush hour was under way, with tens of thousands arriving at Waterloo and finding almost no trains running, the situation had the potential to become very difficult. It's clear that information wasn't always getting through to the people who needed it to keep passengers informed, but I suspect that at times even the staff trying to sort things out didn't have much information to offer.
 

cjohnson

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Given all the displacements is it best to assume the worst for tomorrow morning's peak...?
 

nlogax

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I didn't realize there was another dimension of crush-loading until I boarded a Waterloo - Guildford via Cobham service some time after 6.40pm. Pretty much had to assume the dimensions of flat-packed Ikea furniture before finally unfolding myself and breathing out at Surbs. Good luck to everyone else going home this evening, hopefully it's all calming down now.
 

Bookd

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What exactly caused this? There is mention in an earlier post (and in the Standard) of a lineside fire, but no detail although it must have been serious.
I see from RTT that Windsor line services were running very late earlier, presumably because of platform shortage at Waterloo, although they do seem to have been running and I may not have been happy if I was not allowed in to the station!
 

GW43125

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What exactly caused this? There is mention in an earlier post (and in the Standard) of a lineside fire, but no detail although it must have been serious.!

Fire on a cable (750V traction cable?) around International Junction, took out the top three lines (Main Slows and Down Main Fast) and platforms 1-9. Caused a few signalling issues as the loose cable made contact with the rails and fried the track circuits.
 

pompeyfan

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From what I saw on a video it appeared a points motor caught slight and took a 650V bus up with it which took out track circuits etc.
 

infobleep

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The info on the National Rail app/Live Departure Boards is fed from Darwin, which in turn can be fed from Tyrell or LICC Gui software.

So a train can be cancelled in Tyrell which will display on the CIS boards that it is cancelled, however you can then hide cancelled services so they don’t show at all on the screens and sometimes you can just hide infinitely delayed services which is what is likely to have happened to that 17:58.

With so many cancellations it’s possible some have been missed so will just show “Delayed”

Hope this helps, if I could post screen grabs on Tyrell/LICC it would perfectly illustrate what info is fed to feed CIS boards/NRE etc during disruption.
Thanks. I find how it works interesting. Some people are fascinated but trains and their numbers. I'm fascinated by where they go and during disruption there's a lot more interesting train movements and changes to the timetable.

What is an indefinitely delayed service. Is this one that is highly unlikely to run but hasn't formally been cancelled or the person inputting the info hasn't been notified that its been cancelled?

Can staff filter on cancellations and delays and could they just block hide all delayed services from over so many hours ago? If a delayed train was hidden and then it went into service, would the system then auto unhide it?

Some services were running over 1 hour 30 minutes late yesterday evening, the 17.32 Waterloo to Guildford to be exact, so I understand there is no fast rule as to what will run and how late it will run. It will be a judgment call at the time.

I wonder if a system of only showing trains known to be running would work online? It would however deny me the ability to see all the cancellations and delays on National Rail Enquiries App, which I enjoy going through. I even enjoy working out other journeys I might make from time to time and seeing how they would have faired during the disruption.
 
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infobleep

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Given all the displacements is it best to assume the worst for tomorrow morning's peak...?
When I looked at my phone this morning at 6.30 National Rail Enquiries was reporting disruption until the end of service. The notice was from yesterday. There were always trains csncelled or delayed. Some with a reason above their online calling diagram, others without.

Towards 7am the disruption notice had been replaced with nothing, this occurred yesterday for quite sometime too. When I checked again after 7.30, it was now reporting disruption due to stock placement until 10am.

For some trains their journey to cancellation was like this. At Guildford the 7.34 arrival from Waterloo cancelled. 8.07 Guildford to Waterloo delayed. Eventually that too was cancelled. I assume after a search they couldn't get hold of any other rolling stock or staff to run that train. They have about 33 minutes between trains, so if stock and staff were nearby, it would be possible to sort something out in that time.
 

iharding

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I was on the 1715 Waterloo-Fratton last night. I checked real time trains a few minutes after departure, and noticed it was already reported at Wimbledon, whereas we hadn't yet passed Clapham Junction. Don't know what happened, but I watched its phantom progress passing other stations until I got off at Woking, where it was reported at 1750, but actually arrived at 1807. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W93606/2017/12/11/advanced notice how the train managed to nearly reach New Malden before Clapham Junction (which it is still approaching!)
 

infobleep

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At times like yesterday, it must be quite complicated working out the delay attribution for services, as there were short term planning services running. Some not cancelled in systems that didn't run. Some that only ran partly and were part cancelled but not fully cancelled for some other stations they didn't go to, as it terminated early. Others that stopped at statioms not logged in the system. So it goes on.

I didn't realize there was another dimension of crush-loading until I boarded a Waterloo - Guildford via Cobham service some time after 6.40pm. Pretty much had to assume the dimensions of flat-packed Ikea furniture before finally unfolding myself and breathing out at Surbs. Good luck to everyone else going home this evening, hopefully it's all calming down now.
I believe that was the first train along the Cobham line for two hours. Whether that had any bearing on the numbers on your train I don't know. I suspect the main issue was limited number or trains heading south stopping at Surbtion. At some peak hours it was as little 2-3 from London - assuming none ran that aren't showing on Real Time Trains.

The following services are interesting:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W93014/2017/12/11/advanced

2L93 is shown as leaving Surbtion 17 minutes late, departuring 18.26 instead of 18.09t. However it is shown as departing West Byfleet on time at 18.18, which it did. It actually departed Surbtion on time.

Then there was 2Z93, a short term planning service. That was shown as cancelled from Surbtion and running 16min late from Weybridge at 18.32 and then calling at West Byfleet and stations to Basingstoke. Although Byfleet and New Haw was not inputted as a stop, it would have stopped there, along with all the stations between Surbtion and Weybridge.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O51504/2017/12/11/advanced

I reckon that was the stopping service announced at Surbtion. It was on platform 1 at 18.09 and had to clear it before 18.19, as that is when a Hampton Court to Waterloo service departed.

If so that was formed from 1A56, which was the 16.44 from Alton. It started from Woking, at 17.48, some 25 minutes late, having had the section from Alton to Woking formally cancelled. It got to Surbtion at 18.01 and was never formally cancelled from beyond that point to Waterloo.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W90098/2017/12/11/advanced
 

43021HST

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So hows Waterloo looking for the rest of the day in brief? I have to make a journey there from Aldershot for something not massively important later this afternoon. National Rail says it predicts delays until 1000 am but my feeling is that it'll go on for longer. Wondering if it's worthwhile bothering.
 

SWT_USER

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What caused the lineside fire? Is it genuinely 'one of those things' or is it something that can be blamed on NR like most of the recent troubles on the SWML?
 

OneOffDave

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I arrived at Waterloo around 1630 and it was heaving already. I couldn't get to the information desk to ask for assistance with a ramp to get on anything heading to Farnborough so went to Station Reception. Quite a few wheelchair users turned up there trying to get to a number of places. Initially we were told things were going to be sorted around 1800 which pretty quickly changed to "no-one knows how long this will last and when any trains will be running". I asked about ticket acceptance via Paddington, Reading and Basingstoke with a view to getting them to stick me in a cab from there. They decided to stick me in a cab from Waterloo to FNB around 1730 and I got to FNB about 1915ish.

This morning the 0716 was cancelled and the 0728 was 8 coaches instead of 12 so was too crowded to be able to get me and the wheelchair on. I finally got on the 0746, which was also 4 short. and that got into Waterloo 11 late. Fingers crossed everything is sorted out for this evening.

The real problem at Waterloo as a disabled passenger is the lack of a separate and identifiable assistance point. Euston has got a great facility. Where I was sat yesterday, I was starting to get really cold despite all my layers of clothes. Had I been there another 45-60 minutes I'm pretty sure I would have got hypothermic. It's a lot harder keeping warm when stuck in one place as a wheelchair user versus being stood up. Just getting to the information desk was effectively impossible and even when you do, most of it is too high to see over.
 

theironroad

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I arrived at Waterloo around 1630 and it was heaving already. I couldn't get to the information desk to ask for assistance with a ramp to get on anything heading to Farnborough so went to Station Reception. Quite a few wheelchair users turned up there trying to get to a number of places. Initially we were told things were going to be sorted around 1800 which pretty quickly changed to "no-one knows how long this will last and when any trains will be running". I asked about ticket acceptance via Paddington, Reading and Basingstoke with a view to getting them to stick me in a cab from there. They decided to stick me in a cab from Waterloo to FNB around 1730 and I got to FNB about 1915ish.

This morning the 0716 was cancelled and the 0728 was 8 coaches instead of 12 so was too crowded to be able to get me and the wheelchair on. I finally got on the 0746, which was also 4 short. and that got into Waterloo 11 late. Fingers crossed everything is sorted out for this evening.

The real problem at Waterloo as a disabled passenger is the lack of a separate and identifiable assistance point. Euston has got a great facility. Where I was sat yesterday, I was starting to get really cold despite all my layers of clothes. Had I been there another 45-60 minutes I'm pretty sure I would have got hypothermic. It's a lot harder keeping warm when stuck in one place as a wheelchair user versus being stood up. Just getting to the information desk was effectively impossible and even when you do, most of it is too high to see over.

Glad you got back to FNB, even if much delayed. Just so others don't get the wrong idea, part of the info desk on the concourse is at a lower level to make it accessible for chair users. I agree that a waiting area for less mobile passengers would be a good idea as harder to stay warm.

Looking at some of the pics in the evening standard , anyone not fighting fit would have struggled to get on the concourse at peak last night.
 

RichardN

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3 trains in front of 2G50, line a stern. 2J46 in the platform at Clapham atm showing on RTT as being 60L. Don't know if 2J46 is being terminated at Clapham

I was on 2G50. Props to the guard, his announcements were excellent, both in terms of clear PA voice and with the information imparted.
 

Loop & Link

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Thanks. I find how it works interesting. Some people are fascinated but trains and their numbers. I'm fascinated by where they go and during disruption there's a lot more interesting train movements and changes to the timetable.

What is an indefinitely delayed service. Is this one that is highly unlikely to run but hasn't formally been cancelled or the person inputting the info hasn't been notified that its been cancelled?

Can staff filter on cancellations and delays and could they just block hide all delayed services from over so many hours ago? If a delayed train was hidden and then it went into service, would the system then auto unhide it?

Some services were running over 1 hour 30 minutes late yesterday evening, the 17.32 Waterloo to Guildford to be exact, so I understand there is no fast rule as to what will run and how late it will run. It will be a judgment call at the time.

I wonder if a system of only showing trains known to be running would work online? It would however deny me the ability to see all the cancellations and delays on National Rail Enquiries App, which I enjoy going through. I even enjoy working out other journeys I might make from time to time and seeing how they would have faired during the disruption.

So by indefinitely delayed is basically a service that is cancelled in reality but just hasn’t been cancelled off in the system and the delay will just keep building up, it could have been just missed off.

I can filter cancellations/delays/train running for certain lines which gives a clearer picture.

When we have major disruption, I will start cancelling off trains in the system or start hiding them on CIS, or overwrite the CIS with a message, if it’s a scenario where we have no trains for hours. If we get the job back sooner, I can reinstate and unhide train services so they show on CIS/NRE etc.

When we have disruption (something I do anyway, and I’m sure many others) I will start making a list using the simplifier, with headcodes, the trains next workings, the unit number and if and where the crew are due relief, this helps me when cancelling off services, and helps me keep track of where units and traincrew are it then helps me try and plan to recover the service, with what I’m going to do with each train when we get the service back.

And you’re right, I was interested in unit numbers years ago, but I got on the railway because I was more interested in the operational side, train planning/controller, it’s like a puzzle when we have disruption and the hardest part can be putting it all back together we when get the service back!

Sorry for dragging it slightly off topic, anymore questions feel free to ask.
 

SWT_USER

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Down to a single 458 on one of the Reading diagrams (although the boards and on board information systems believed there were 10). Hope they manage to find another set before the evening peak.

Are SWT using contingency/ management guards today due to the disruption? Guard on the way back wasn't reading from the usual script.. 'change at Feltham for the express coach link to Heathrow!'
 

Dougal2345

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I had a long wait at Bournemouth, intending to catch the 17.05 to Sway, I eventually caught something that left at about 18.25.

I can't help thinking, as an 'armchair' critic who's never run a whelk stall, that maybe things could have been better handled at Bournemouth. There were plenty of staff around, answering questions as best they could, but there was nothing useful on the tannoy - the automated announcements along the lines of 'the 18.05 to Farnborough Main is being delayed - please listen for further announcements' droned on repetitively ad nauseam.

I'd have liked to hear a human voice every five minutes or so, summarising the situation, and giving some useful advice (eg 'if you're heading to London, hop on the Cross Country and change at Southampton Airport' or whatever). When I finally got on board the 18:22 (which may have been the 17:22 very late) I was planning to go to Brockenhurst and double back to Sway - but the train actually unexpectedly stopped at Hinton and Sway anyway - no announcements about this at all at Bournemouth or on the train (that I heard), and I suspect some Sway and Hinton people didn't board for that reason. Even if the Bournemouth station staff didn't know where it was stopping, surely they could have consulted the driver or guard when it arrived, and made some tannoy announcements?

Well, moan over and Delay-Repay claim in...
 

Dr Hoo

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What caused the lineside fire? Is it genuinely 'one of those things' or is it something that can be blamed on NR like most of the recent troubles on the SWML?

Rumours on the street that it was initiated by a point drive somehow fraying a third rail feeder cable (rather than, say, a random shoe arc igniting wind-blown rubbish).

Can anybody closer to the action comment on this?
 

swt_passenger

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I'd have liked to hear a human voice every five minutes or so, summarising the situation, and giving some useful advice (eg 'if you're heading to London, hop on the Cross Country and change at Southampton Airport' or whatever).

Much better to advise XC to Reading and GW into Paddington. A permitted route anyway, but I struggle to remember anyone from SWT ever mentioning it...
 

ChrisFletcher

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Just out of interest, does anyone know what it would take to divert the entire West of England service to Paddington, or at least Reading, on days like this?

I imaging neither station is exactly overflowing with spare capacity in the evening peak, but two DMUs per hour shouldn't be that hard to accommodate?

I'm sure, for example, route familiarity amongst crews might be an issue, but not insurmountable?
 

pompeyfan

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I’m not sure why you’d do that? The way it works now does the job, Reading on the other hand would be useful but might struggle to fit extra 230m trains in and amongst everything.
 

D235 Apapa

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Just out of interest, does anyone know what it would take to divert the entire West of England service to Paddington, or at least Reading, on days like this?

I imaging neither station is exactly overflowing with spare capacity in the evening peak, but two DMUs per hour shouldn't be that hard to accommodate?

I'm sure, for example, route familiarity amongst crews might be an issue, but not insurmountable?

You have answered your own question, if i may be so bold! Crews, are the (major) issue in this instant. Without booked regular work over a route, there will be no (official) knowledge thereof. Certain main line depots in the SWR network need diversionary knowledge of the Windsor side routes, as an example (primarily for eng works), others of the Guildford New Line (same reason), and as such a very limited number of booked services are run via these routes for this purpose. Even with these it can be a struggle to keep enough bodies within a given depot/link up to speed. Therefore for a route over which a TOC has no booked work whatsoever, you are looking at employing pilot crews from a-another TOC with requisite knowledge, which in reality will themselves be in no better position to release crews for add hoc pilot work than any other TOC!
 

AndyPJG

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Much better to simply terminate/reverse the SWR WoE service at Basingstoke rather than risk the trains/crews getting delayed running up to Waterloo. Any delays to the return working have significant consequences to maintaining the service over the single line between Salisbury/Exeter, disrupting the booked passing points/times.
 

Signal Head

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From what I saw on a video it appeared a points motor caught slight and took a 650V bus up with it which took out track circuits etc.

Info I have says insufficient clearance between point machine moving parts and a traction feeder cable. Eventually the moving parts cut through the insulation - snap, crackle and pop.
It's probably found its way through various interconnected signalling cables hence the need to check and possibly replace surrounding kit.

If you short out a 650 (signalling, AC) supply, it usually just blows a fuse, the normal loading isn't that great so the fuse rating is such that a short will take it out.
3rd rail supply needs a *bit* more oomph behind it, you need a very good short to open the breaker. Rubbing contact onto a point machine part that isn't deliberately earthed to the traction return rail is unlikely to draw enough.
 

pompeyfan

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Info I have says insufficient clearance between point machine moving parts and a traction feeder cable. Eventually the moving parts cut through the insulation - snap, crackle and pop.
It's probably found its way through various interconnected signalling cables hence the need to check and possibly replace surrounding kit.

If you short out a 650 (signalling, AC) supply, it usually just blows a fuse, the normal loading isn't that great so the fuse rating is such that a short will take it out.
3rd rail supply needs a *bit* more oomph behind it, you need a very good short to open the breaker. Rubbing contact onto a point machine part that isn't deliberately earthed to the traction return rail is unlikely to draw enough.


Thanks for that, very useful information and would explain why the video I saw made it look like the points motor was on fire.
 
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