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Southern Victoria to Portsmouth and Southampton chronic bad performance

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HowardGWR

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The 0832 has not made it to Southampton this week and again today. See this RTT link.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G72111/2017/12/13/advanced

As you can see it gets later and later from Gatwick onwards to Horsham and is terminated at Fareham so that it can resume the return path it should have of the 1113 ex Southampton to Victoria (which you will see was cancelled on RTT), which is what happened today..

Ok, pax at Southampton can take a following Brighton and change at Havant to pick up the alternate Portsmouth service to Victoria, but hard luck those who were counting on this service to get them to a meeting in London, or their flight at Gatwick. It costs the best part of an hour's delay.

It usually remains conjecture on RTT why this delay is happening so often to this train. Does any SR- knowledgeable colleague here have a clue why this is happening? Is there a structural timetable problem? Any clues appreciated, thanks.
 
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swt_passenger

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Passengers from Southampton Central (at least those who had arrived in good time) would have usually been advised to travel to Fareham with GWR (usually xx06) and connect with the Victoria.

Passengers from Fareham to Southampton would normally be able to pick up the next SN service through from Brighton.

I have no explanation why it is such a regular occurrence however it is far from unusual..
 
Dr Hoo

Dr Hoo

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To be pedantic, a train that is terminated short is usually referred to as a "PINE" in telegraphic code-speak.

A train starting intermediately is sometimes called a "CALVIN" although I am not sure that this was an old telegraphic code.

"CAPE" is intended to mean 'cancelled throughout".
 
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HowardGWR

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swt_passenger said:
Passengers from Southampton Central (at least those who had arrived in good time) would have usually been advised to travel to Fareham with GWR (usually xx06) and connect with the Victoria.

Passengers from Fareham to Southampton would normally be able to pick up the next SN service through from Brighton.

I have no explanation why it is such a regular occurrence however it is far from unusual..
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Thanks to you and for other replies. I can't see how, under this new system, how I can alter the thread title (correct term is PINE apparently). Any clue as to how?

Your point is valid about the GWR train, but it has been so late the last few days that it never caught up with the 1139 (was 1113 from SOU before it was PINEd at Fareham). Today it was 8 late at Fareham and just enabled pax to catch the Victoria bound train. I assume there is a turn back siding at Fareham by the way. I had missed that fact today and apologise for not mentioning it.

The turn round for the services at Southampton seems very short (12 minutes, arr 1101 back out at 1113). I wonder how they manage to clean it properly!

Edit: I worked it out - there is a new function above. (Thread Tools)
 
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Harbouring

Harbouring

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It is definitely an issue but I guess the common good of it being on time on the BML must be the priority. The turnaround times are poor, understandable for a through station perhaps but the ones at Portsmouth harbour are even shorter (9 mins for the London, 8 or the Brighton) which inevitably leads to trains getting turned around at Fratton. Short turnarounds are a feature of much of the southern timetable.


Trains terminating at Fareham will usually go down the Fareham-Eastleigh line to reverse into platform 3 if it's departing soon or it will sometimes go into platform 2 if it needs to get out of the way of the via Basingstoke Waterloo service then double reverse to platform 3.
 
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phil281

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Simple answer, the timetable simply doesnt work and there are too many trains through East Croydon. All its takes is a train 2 minutes late at Windmill Bridge Jn and its 10 minutes late. If it goes to Southampton, it gets regulated behind the stopper on the way back. Ends up 25+ late at Horsham. Crew then displaced, no spare crew of course, and the disruption spreads and spreads and spreads.....so the answer is nip the problem in the bud.
 
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HowardGWR

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I will say this: the SR system of joining and splitting is much to be admired (only 4 mins allowed -think back to that ridiculous DfT contention about needing 10 mins at Cardiff for the Swansea trains in order to justify bimodes). However, Bognor pax have to be very patient at Horsham while they typically wait for 10 minutes before proceeding with a Pompey or Southampton unit on the back. If the latter are delayed, then the sojourn and resulting delay must be doubly frustrating.
 
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rg177

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I'm reminded of when this was done on a very late service (around 10:30pm) back in April. The few remainiing passengers were turfed off and it turned out that the train had no OBS, so the driver had to single handedly lock out the train then assist the passengers before trundling off somewhere.

All the train did was form the final Southampton (well, Fareham) to Barnham of the night afterwards anyway, and services were already so thin on the ground I couldn't understand why they didn't just run it through.
 
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southernyoshi

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As a layman, it's always seemed odd to me that they send the Pompey/Soton - London trains off from Horsham to the already-very-congested BML - why not keep going on the direct route through Dorking, Epsom & Sutton to London?
 
30907

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southernyoshi said:
As a layman, it's always seemed odd to me that they send the Pompey/Soton - London trains off from Horsham to the already-very-congested BML - why not keep going on the direct route through Dorking, Epsom & Sutton to London?
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Gatwick and Croydon are the commercial reasons.
 
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JonathanH

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southernyoshi said:
As a layman, it's always seemed odd to me that they send the Pompey/Soton - London trains off from Horsham to the already-very-congested BML - why not keep going on the direct route through Dorking, Epsom & Sutton to London?
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30907 said:
Gatwick and Croydon are the commercial reasons.
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Also, the route via Dorking is equally congested by stopping trains and journey times would be slower than via the Gatwick route.

Back to the original question, there are a load of poor performing trains on the Southern network. The 0832 to Southampton follows the 0818 London Bridge to Tonbridge/ Reigate through the Redhill corridor. This is a desperately unreliable train with the added inconvenience of a split at Redhill.

By the time it gets to Horsham the damage is done. The split at Horsham isn't the problem.

In the May 2018 timetable the corresponding Southampton table will no longer come via Redhill. I suspect that its puactuality should improve.
 
sarahj

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Simples, it's a 2 1/2 hour trip, with 10 min turnarounds on a very busy line. If you hit Arundel/Ford junctions too late, you end up with the Lit-PMS stopper in front and then your stuck behind the PMS to Sou SWT stopper.
If you came to Cosham more than 15 mins down there was a big chance you would turn around at Fareham. You only often kept going if control were focused on elsewhere and did not notice how late you were.
And it goes via Gatwick as that is where most punters are going. You get the odd few saving a few quid going to London, but not many. Oh and it's 2 plus hours with no catering.
 
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HowardGWR

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^^^ Great info, thanks, also from JonathanH.

No less than three down services were PINEd in this way yesterday (and thus the corresponding up services). This inconvenience and potential delay (depending on whether the GWR train is running on time) was thrust, not only on Southampton pax, but also on all those between Weymouth and Southampton - and that includes me.

As you both point out, the problem is indeed structural. I didn't quite get Jonathan's last point, do you have a reference please?
In the May 2018 timetable the corresponding Southampton table will no longer come via Redhill. I suspect that its puactuality should improve.
Click to expand...

Should 'table' read 'service'?
 
BestWestern

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Could it be largely because GTR are an abysmal outfit, with precious little regard for their passengers, their staff or indeed the business of actually operating any sort of decent rail service in general? Just a thought.

Perhaps this is another government initiative, conducted via the Southern rail experiment operation, to condition passengers to the disinterested railway of the future!
 
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swt_passenger

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BestWestern said:
Could it be largely because GTR are an abysmal outfit, with precious little regard for their passengers, their staff or indeed the business of actually operating any sort of decent rail service in general? Just a thought.

Perhaps this is another government initiative, conducted via the Southern rail experiment operation, to condition passengers to the disinterested railway of the future!
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This was happening well before GTR were ever thought of...
 
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swt_passenger

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cjohnson said:
Thanks - what does PINE stand for? (I can vaguely understand CAPEd = Cancelled At Point... etc)
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The telegraphic codes don't necessarily 'stand for' anything. IIRC it has been pointed out that some of them are not initials, just words.
 
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Many of them do vaguely stand for something. CAPE is definitely Cancelled At Point of Entry (hence a whole cancellation for the complete service). PINE did stand for something but appears to have been somewhat lost in the mists of time...
 
Starmill

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The question is really not so much "Why is my train being turned short?" as it is "How does it get late enough to need mitigation so frequently?".
 
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HowardGWR said:
I will say this: the SR system of joining and splitting is much to be admired (only 4 mins allowed -think back to that ridiculous DfT contention about needing 10 mins at Cardiff for the Swansea trains in order to justify bimodes). However, Bognor pax have to be very patient at Horsham while they typically wait for 10 minutes before proceeding with a Pompey or Southampton unit on the back. If the latter are delayed, then the sojourn and resulting delay must be doubly frustrating.
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The service for MidSussex stations to Bognor is pants, 10mins or so waits in both directions whilst the Southampton or Portsmouth sections are added or cut off and that's if the computers say yes. Ironic that the time this takes the train could have served Billingshurst, Pulborough and Arundel and still get to Barnham in the time the 'fast' portion takes now. No wonder lots of people drive to stations closer to London or Gatwick.
 
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JohnRegular

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As an occasional user of the service, I feel there has to be a better solution. The service is totally uncompetitive for journeys to London from west of Chichester, even with the lower prices; the journey time is frustratingly long and the rolling stock inferior compared to the SWR services. The service is most useful when there is disruption at Waterloo, and for south Hampshire - Gatwick Airport journeys; definitely useful but I'm just not convinced the market is large enough to justify the service as it stands.
In my opinion, the path west of Cosham would be better used for a semi-fast Portsmouth-Weymouth service, instead of extending the existing stopper, and Gatwick journeys would only require a change at Fratton or Havant.
It's swings and roundabouts I suppose, I don't have enough information to say for sure what would be more useful, I'm just a guy with a box of crayons who'd prefer a direct service to Poole and Bournemouth than a very tedious service to London that is unreliable and not very useful.
 
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swt_passenger

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JohnRegular said:
It's swings and roundabouts I suppose, I don't have enough information to say for sure what would be more useful, I'm just a guy with a box of crayons who'd prefer a direct service to Poole and Bournemouth than a very tedious service to London that is unreliable and not very useful.
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It isn't really there to provide the "London" service from either Southampton or Portsmouth, but to Gatwick and Croydon.

I don't think providing a semifast Portsmouth to Weymouth necessarily requires removal of a Southern service, SWR are already providing an additional Portsmouth to Southampton semi-fast next December.
 
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sarahj said:
Simples, it's a 2 1/2 hour trip, with 10 min turnarounds on a very busy line. If you hit Arundel/Ford junctions too late, you end up with the Lit-PMS stopper in front and then your stuck behind the PMS to Sou SWT stopper.
If you came to Cosham more than 15 mins down there was a big chance you would turn around at Fareham. You only often kept going if control were focused on elsewhere and did not notice how late you were.
And it goes via Gatwick as that is where most punters are going. You get the odd few saving a few quid going to London, but not many. Oh and it's 2 plus hours with no catering.
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Enough Housebuilding now in around the Littlehampton, Bognor, Billingshurst and SW of Horsham to have a service via Dorking and Sutton. When I started to use the route Horsham had to cope with 3tph each way on the MidSussex ( fast semifast and slow) , the Brighton and Guildford trains and terminators via Three Bridges plus in those days Goods trains. The Dorking route had the Vic fasts, Horsham Waterloos, Holmwoood terminators , terminators at Dorking etc. So the Dorking route was quite intensive all with mechanical signalling. Not sure it has as many trains now which also are slower than they were in 1938, progress we have had not. Even in the 80s it was 65mins on the 1720 to Pulborough, still slow for a c50mile run,but today? It was possible to do it in 50mins via Dorking and Sutton if the line was clear all be it 90mph on Holmwood and Warnham banks.
 
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