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Will East Midlands Trains' Meridians and HST's be replaced when the franchise is renewed?

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edwin_m

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Even after that work has been completed (will it be ready in time for a rollout of new trains?), only around 55% of the way to Nottingham will have been electrified, and only around 40% of the way to Sheffield. Do these numbers really make for a convincing case for bi-modes? With no commitment to onward electrification either.
If you're suggesting buying straight diesels then I think that's unlikely. Any 125mph diesel is likely to have electric transmission so is effectively a bi-mode without the pantograph and transformer. Running a reasonable part of the journey on electric power brings a definite performance benefit and cost saving, so it's worth the small extra cost and weight to include those components. After all London to Newbury is a lot less than 40% of London to Plymouth let alone London to Penzance, but GWR still went for bi-modes for the West of England.
 
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AM9

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Not quite sure what design implications you are talking about - presumably the higher floor in the intermediate carriages and whatever strengthening needs to be applied to the floor to enable you to hang engines off of it - but neither of those will leave you with a very heavy EMU. Heavier than it could have been, yes, but I wouldn't have thought it would be excessive. Agreed on the price front though.

You would then need to reconfigure the suspension to compensate for the weight reduction, - or carry concrete engines around to preserve the ride dynamics.
 

43074

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At some point between now and 2023 sure...

All of this is too late anyway, a rolling stock solution was required in time for next year for the December 2018 timetable. This is why there are fewer Thameslink trains than there were supposed to be, and there is a ridiculous need to cut trains and replace them with bus services. This has been known about for years and nothing done, which causes these big compromises now. I cannot see how a bi-mode will make that any better.

There are not fewer Thameslink services (well as far as the MML is concerned anyway), the issue is a lack of EMT rolling stock to plug the gap before the Corby electrics begin in December 2020, and from an EMT stock utilisation perspective the paths in the TL timetable exacerbates this, hence the GC HSTs. You're right the issues have been known about for years and that the solutions in place are unacceptable, but really there's only one place to point the finger of blame...

If there were new trains (whether bi-modes or otherwise) there might actually be enough stock to go up to 6tph, which would largely solve the issues as far as EMT is concerned. Even some sort of hourly Corby - Bedford stopping service in the peaks would avoid the need for the bus, and for paths further South, but you need to get the trains to run them from somewhere.
 

Starmill

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If you're suggesting buying straight diesels then I think that's unlikely.
I wasn't. I don't have a solution, but there is no rolling stock strategy that is anything close to good value for money when you commit to wiring about 40% of a route. You have the vast cost of the electrification and power supply upgrades, and you also have the vast cost of new rolling stock that will spend most of its time and potentially most of its miles not using the wires, and all of the extra cost of being able to be compatible with both. I should have been more up front I suppose - there is really no way out from spending huge amounts of money and getting almost nothing in return. It's difficult to believe that over the life of the trains, the higher cost of ordering and maintaining a bi-mode train is going to balance out the energy saving from using the wires for part of the journey.

After all London to Newbury is a lot less than 40% of London to Plymouth let alone London to Penzance, but GWR still went for bi-modes for the West of England.
Remarkably they didn't have an existing fleet of modern, fast trains though did they...

There are not fewer Thameslink services (well as far as the MML is concerned anyway)
The last time I looked this up there were to be 8tph to Bedford, and now there are only 7. Perhaps this is a temporary arrangement?
 
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Chester1

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Be careful what you wish for. If the Merdians are not replaced in the next franchise then it will mean the government is keen to remove most intercity MML services after 2033. If the government decides to intervene and order a only a dozen or so 800s or 802s to replace just the HSTs they will likely end up the only intercity trains running once the Meridians are life expired. I know there are a lot of people who disagree with Totton but removing intercity services from Nottingham and Derby would force people to use it. Sheffield will have HS2 services further reducing demand. If demand south of Kettering grows then the simplest way to handle capacity would be to replace intercity services to Leicester/Nottingham/Derby/Sheffield with additional Corby or Kettering EMU services.
 

43074

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The last time I looked this up there were to be 8tph to Bedford, and now there are only 7. Perhaps this is a temporary arrangement?

I think two of those were starting from Flitwick in the AM high peak (0712 & 0742 IIRC), giving Bedford 6tph in the AM peak and 8tph in the PM high peak, with 6tph in the hours either side of that; where 7 has come from I don't know (although it was in the press release the other day too) but it's highly possible the plan has changed in the light of recent events anyway.
 

Bletchleyite

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HSTs are not besuited to the stop-start nature of the route, looking at EMT's Twitter page, they often have an engine fail, which means they run slow and passengers complain on Twitter. They also lack a wheelchair area in Standard Class, even a 142 has that facility!

If I was in a wheelchair and therefore was upgraded to 1st each time (OK, you don't get the seat!) I can't see that I would be complaining.

GWR 800s (5-car variant) are the same.
 

Bletchleyite

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Be careful what you wish for. If the Merdians are not replaced in the next franchise then it will mean the government is keen to remove most intercity MML services after 2033. If the government decides to intervene and order a only a dozen or so 800s or 802s to replace just the HSTs they will likely end up the only intercity trains running once the Meridians are life expired. I know there are a lot of people who disagree with Totton but removing intercity services from Nottingham and Derby would force people to use it. Sheffield will have HS2 services further reducing demand. If demand south of Kettering grows then the simplest way to handle capacity would be to replace intercity services to Leicester/Nottingham/Derby/Sheffield with additional Corby or Kettering EMU services.

I can't see that happening any more than I could see the WCML being a wasteland.
 

Starmill

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It is a possibility that services could be scaled back I suppose. Much depends on the money it is currently making and the predicted loading and revenue of HS2 services once Phase 1 is in operation. Leicester does not gain from HS2, but the point about Sheffield I do agree with - most of the demand from there to London will probably vanish off the MML at Chesterfield.
 

Chester1

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I can't see that happening any more than I could see the WCML being a wasteland.

It is a possibility that services could be scaled back I suppose. Much depends on the money it is currently making and the predicted loading and revenue of HS2 services once Phase 1 is in operation. Leicester does not gain from HS2, but the point about Sheffield I do agree with - most of the demand from there to London will probably vanish off the MML at Chesterfield.

If you consider the passenger flows that need to be serviced I struggle to see how more than 9 coach 800s or 802s running 1tph Sheffield to London and 1tph Nottingham to London would be neccessary after 2033. 4tph Corby to London would adequately serve all stations south of Kettering. HS2 services would absorb sufficient capacity from Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, Nottingham to London. I very much doubt that East West Rail will go east of Bedford because of the difficulty of doing Aylesbury/Bicester to Bedford which is much easier than building a new line. Ideally East West services could then extend onto the MML serving intermediate flows between Bedford and Sheffield / Nottingham. Id bet on a rebuild of Bedford and Bedford St Johns stations over building a whole new line between Bedford and Cambridge. Even if the line is built there will probably be several years between completion to Bedford and completion to Cambridge.
 

edwin_m

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If you consider the passenger flows that need to be serviced I struggle to see how more than 9 coach 800s or 802s running 1tph Sheffield to London and 1tph Nottingham to London would be neccessary after 2033. 4tph Corby to London would adequately serve all stations south of Kettering. HS2 services would absorb sufficient capacity from Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, Nottingham to London.
Leicester-London doesn't benefit at all from HS2 so I'd suggest Leicester still needs as a minimum 2TPH fast London trains. Nottingham and Derby need fast Leicester trains which might as well be extensions of the London-Leicesters. Then the intermediate stations south of Nottingham and Derby need trains to London, Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and probably also Toton and Sheffield (though Sheffield-London fast trains are no longer needed). By the time you add all those together the MML service south of Nottingham/Derby needs to be at least as frequent as today's.
 

B&I

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Be careful what you wish for. If the Merdians are not replaced in the next franchise then it will mean the government is keen to remove most intercity MML services after 2033. If the government decides to intervene and order a only a dozen or so 800s or 802s to replace just the HSTs they will likely end up the only intercity trains running once the Meridians are life expired. I know there are a lot of people who disagree with Totton but removing intercity services from Nottingham and Derby would force people to use it. Sheffield will have HS2 services further reducing demand. If demand south of Kettering grows then the simplest way to handle capacity would be to replace intercity services to Leicester/Nottingham/Derby/Sheffield with additional Corby or Kettering EMU services.

Surely not even the latter-day Einsteins who run the DfT at present could implement this plan and decimate services to a large and busy university city which rhymes with your user name?
 

Chester1

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Leicester-London doesn't benefit at all from HS2 so I'd suggest Leicester still needs as a minimum 2TPH fast London trains. Nottingham and Derby need fast Leicester trains which might as well be extensions of the London-Leicesters. Then the intermediate stations south of Nottingham and Derby need trains to London, Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and probably also Toton and Sheffield (though Sheffield-London fast trains are no longer needed). By the time you add all those together the MML service south of Nottingham/Derby needs to be at least as frequent as today's.

Need is a strong word in this context. Id say that the services you describe would be beneficial to those towns and cities. I agree that Leicester needs 2tph fast to London but do fast services from other parts of the Midlands to Leicester need to terminate in London? I am not proposing a reduction in service levels, it would actually involve 2tph extra between Corby and Bedford. I know it wouldn't work if East West rail extends to Cambridge but I will believe that when I see it. Thameslink, cancellation of electrification north of Kettering and HS2 will fundamentally change MML services. It will basically just be a long distance commuter line with a small number of intercity services. The size of the bi mode fleet will indicate the service level the government intends to have after 2033. If its just a dozen or so to replace the HSTs it doesn't bode well.

Would it be possible for an 125 mph unit to have wide doors at thirds? The fastest units I have seen them on have a limit of 110 mph, is this because of safety or cost?
 

Bletchleyite

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Would it be possible for an 125 mph unit to have wide doors at thirds? The fastest units I have seen them on have a limit of 110 mph, is this because of safety or cost?

Yes. Siemens proposed what was basically a 125mph Desiro City as the "Desiro Verve" a while ago, though none have been sold yet. I think they were aiming it at the likes of the TPE WCML services, though these obviously have gone for a more traditional end doored layout in the end.
 

whhistle

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Really? How come then they have the name 'High Speed Trains' - is it a name that predated the Meridians and has stuck?
Ha ha - sorry, that really has made me laugh.
As others have said, the term is almost interchangable with "Intercity 125", as the trains, when new in the 1970s and 1980s were known to travel at 125mph - faster than other trains at that time.
So in those decades, they were "High Speed Trains" but now nearly all new intercity trains are 125mph.

Interestingly, the term "Intercity" only really came to fame when the HST was built. Even though there were already intercity services (IE, fast trains between cities), the brand of the HST was known to be Intercity 125.


It's unlikely they would still use Neville Hill, as they only use it at the moment because the HSTs are there.
I wonder if when new trains are ordered/in play, whether EMT (or whoever) will continue to run trains from Leeds to London or anywhere else.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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125mph (200km/h) barely qualifies as High Speed today, certainly not internationally.
Class 395 trains on HS1 can run at a higher speed, but don't get an HST moniker.
Are we still going to call them HSTs when their main use is trundling about Scotland at 100mph max?
Their original name, High Speed Diesel Train, is a better description today, really
 

70014IronDuke

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125mph (200km/h) barely qualifies as High Speed today, certainly not internationally. ...

I think there are lots of places in Europe that don't do above 100 mph / 160 kmph, let alone 125 mph. Then you have Africa, S and N America....
Agree, however, that it is something of an anomaly when you have HS1.

Their original name, High Speed Diesel Train, is a better description today, really
Arguably, it was so in 1972, when they dropped the D bit. (or possibly 71, I can't remember exactly).
 

70014IronDuke

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Interestingly, the term "Intercity" only really came to fame when the HST was built. Even though there were already intercity services (IE, fast trains between cities), the brand of the HST was known to be Intercity 125.
..
Well, it all depends on what you mean by 'came to fame' - but I'd disagree with that. The term InterCity - by its various spellings - was already well established by the time production HSTs started operation in 1976. Ask Jimmy Saville.
 

Domh245

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I think there are lots of places in Europe that don't do above 100 mph / 160 kmph, let alone 125 mph. Then you have Africa, S and N America....
Agree, however, that it is something of an anomaly when you have HS1.

But are those sub 100mph railways called high speed railways - I very much doubt it. The UIC's definition of high speed rail is infrastructure designed for 250km/h from new, or 200km/h if it is an upgraded system - with suitably capable stock and signalling. The HST only just qualifies as modern high speed
 

70014IronDuke

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Need is a strong word in this context. Id say that the services you describe would be beneficial to those towns and cities. I agree that Leicester needs 2tph fast to London but do fast services from other parts of the Midlands to Leicester need to terminate in London? ....

I was going to answer here - but I've decided to start a new thread on the aces in the hand of St Pancras.
 

70014IronDuke

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But are those sub 100mph railways called high speed railways - I very much doubt it. The UIC's definition of high speed rail is infrastructure designed for 250km/h from new, or 200km/h if it is an upgraded system - with suitably capable stock and signalling. The HST only just qualifies as modern high speed

Well, you argue a seemingly fair point - but I believe the new and/or upgraded Belgrade - Budapest line is being touted as "High Speed" (in the local vernaculars) - and that is to be 160 kmph max as I've read. Governments need the PR, you see.
 

Clip

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125mph (200km/h) barely qualifies as High Speed today, certainly not internationally.
Class 395 trains on HS1 can run at a higher speed, but don't get an HST moniker.
Are we still going to call them HSTs when their main use is trundling about Scotland at 100mph max?
Their original name, High Speed Diesel Train, is a better description today, really


Ill still call them 125s no matter what they do.
 
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cactustwirly

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Going back to the original question, it's likely that HSTs will be replaced. However I'd be surprised if Meridians are replaced.
Going back to HST reliability, I've travelled on a lot of HST service in the 3 months I've been in Leicester. Only one has had an engine failure.
I don't understand why you guys prefer a Meridian over a HST, because the Meridians are uncomfortable, and have an inadequate amount of Standard class seats. The overhead luggage racks are stupidly small too!
 

LunchSociety

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Would it be possible for an 125 mph unit to have wide doors at thirds? The fastest units I have seen them on have a limit of 110 mph, is this because of safety or cost?
The most obvious example here is the Southeastern Class 395 units
 

Royston Vasey

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Be careful what you wish for. If the Merdians are not replaced in the next franchise then it will mean the government is keen to remove most intercity MML services after 2033. If the government decides to intervene and order a only a dozen or so 800s or 802s to replace just the HSTs they will likely end up the only intercity trains running once the Meridians are life expired. I know there are a lot of people who disagree with Totton but removing intercity services from Nottingham and Derby would force people to use it. Sheffield will have HS2 services further reducing demand. If demand south of Kettering grows then the simplest way to handle capacity would be to replace intercity services to Leicester/Nottingham/Derby/Sheffield with additional Corby or Kettering EMU services.
The Government currently don't know what they'e doing next week let alone in 2033. A lot can change in the next fifteen years.
 

Bedpan

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Interestingly, the term "Intercity" only really came to fame when the HST was built. Even though there were already intercity services (IE, fast trains between cities), the brand of the HST was known to be Intercity 125.

I'm with Iron Duke on that one. My memory is getting hazy but I thought the term came into being sometime in the mid 1960s. BR introduced an "XP64" carriage set which was supposed to herald the dawn of a new age for rail travel - it was effectively a prototype Mk 2 set and Mk 2 production followed on from it. At around the same time a new livery of blue and white for express trains and all over blue for suburban/local rolling stock was introduced - this replaced the maroon colour for loco hauled trains (or green on the Southern and for EMUs and DMUs). And at the same time the Inter City generic term came into being. (Although there was a named train "The Inter City" which ran from London to somewhere in the West Country, I think). I'm pretty certain I was at still at school when the advertising slogan "Inter City Makes The Going Easy.....And The Coming Back" was in use so that would make it pre 1970.
 

ashworth

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The Government currently don't know what they'e doing next week let alone in 2033. A lot can change in the next fifteen years.

Even if there are no delays in construction HS2 in 2033 is 15 years away. With delays it could be up 20 years in the future. If passenger numbers for rail travel continue to increase during the next 20 years as it has in the last 20, the MML to St Pancras will still require at least the curent level of service from Leicester southwards. Again allowing for the next 15 years of possible growth in passenger numbers, plus the inconvenience of changing trains at Toton, I think Nottingham and Derby will still require at least the current level of service. It’s only Chesterfield and Sheffield which will see a significant reduction in passenger numbers to St Pancras.
 
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Mike Machin

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I'm with Iron Duke on that one. My memory is getting hazy but I thought the term came into being sometime in the mid 1960s. BR introduced an "XP64" carriage set which was supposed to herald the dawn of a new age for rail travel - it was effectively a prototype Mk 2 set and Mk 2 production followed on from it. At around the same time a new livery of blue and white for express trains and all over blue for suburban/local rolling stock was introduced - this replaced the maroon colour for loco hauled trains (or green on the Southern and for EMUs and DMUs). And at the same time the Inter City generic term came into being. (Although there was a named train "The Inter City" which ran from London to somewhere in the West Country, I think). I'm pretty certain I was at still at school when the advertising slogan "Inter City Makes The Going Easy.....And The Coming Back" was in use so that would make it pre 1970.
I'm with Iron Duke on that one. My memory is getting hazy but I thought the term came into being sometime in the mid 1960s. BR introduced an "XP64" carriage set which was supposed to herald the dawn of a new age for rail travel - it was effectively a prototype Mk 2 set and Mk 2 production followed on from it. At around the same time a new livery of blue and white for express trains and all over blue for suburban/local rolling stock was introduced - this replaced the maroon colour for loco hauled trains (or green on the Southern and for EMUs and DMUs). And at the same time the Inter City generic term came into being. (Although there was a named train "The Inter City" which ran from London to somewhere in the West Country, I think). I'm pretty certain I was at still at school when the advertising slogan "Inter City Makes The Going Easy.....And The Coming Back" was in use so that would make it pre 1970.

Whilst the XP64 prototype did indeed debut a number of features that became standard in the MK2 coaches, (the design of the second class seating, interior lighting and the new corporate blue and grey livery for example), the first MK2 coaches were designed and built by the WR at Swindon in 1962 and were finished in the then standard maroon livery. The whole design of the MK2 was heavily influenced by Western Region practice, with the window size and shape, together with the roof ends, closely following GWR Hawksworth principles. Further batches of MK2 coaches were built in 1963/64 for the ER and SR, finished in maroon and green liveries respectively.
 
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