VTWC Platform Staff

mind the gap · 17 Dec 2017

380gk said:
Most junior managers have it written into their contract that they have to do this, or are given little in the way of an alternative.

I have seen various employment contracts in my time which although they included a job spec and"normal" place of work, they have also had the "magic" words "you may be required to carry out other duties at any of the companies locations as required by the business" !

RailUK Forums

Elecman · 17 Dec 2017

I’m no too and never been train crew but I’ve had one for years along with a carriage key

tsr · 17 Dec 2017

T-keys are not a particularly "secure" piece of equipment and are used by numerous industries for all manner of tasks. They are most definitely not specialist items. This is why rolling stock manufacturers with any sense design their trains to have functionality concerned with the movement of the train activated by another, more secure key, including functions on guard's panels and suchlike.

yorkie · 17 Dec 2017

Josie said:
They are strike-breakers. They are literally carrying out a role in order to break a strike. "Scab" is usually seen as derogatory, but it's not an insult - crossing a picket line to do the job which is normally done by the striking workers on that picket line is scabbing. I don't see how it can be insulting or hypocritical to say that.

"A derogatory term but not an insult" is a very bizarre excuse as it's the same thing
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/derogatory

...Derogatory means about the same as insulting....

As for the origins, there are some sites that explain it:
http://mentalfloss.com/article/12690/why-are-people-who-cross-picket-lines-called-scabs

...By the 1500s, it had taken on a secondary meaning in England. As a slang insult for a “mean, low, ‘scurvy’ fellow; a rascal, scoundrel,” it drew a connection between that person and scabs -- and the diseases and sores that lead to them (syphilis, for example) -- and, by extension, bad habits and unclean lifestyles.

By the late 1700s, laborers adopted the insult to refer to workmen who wouldn't join a strike, a union, or take part in organized labor...

Josie said:
But whether or not you, I or any given person thinks it's acceptable behaviour, it's still a fact that they are scabbing - it is a verb as well as a noun, and that is what they are doing.

Their behaviour is acceptable; yours isn't.

farleigh · 17 Dec 2017

yorkie said:
"A derogatory term but not an insult" is a very bizarre excuse as it's the same thing
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/derogatory

As for the origins, there are some sites that explain it:
http://mentalfloss.com/article/12690/why-are-people-who-cross-picket-lines-called-scabs

Their behaviour is acceptable; yours isn't.

Good post.

Carlisle · 17 Dec 2017

CentralTrainer said:
Do a decent job managing the workforce to avoid strike action being taken maybe?

A number of folk may possibly have joined the railway to pursue a career of their choice, rather than a preoccupation with a somewhat dated collective bargaining system which most have no choice whether to be included in or not regardless, of their personal views on the matter .

Josie · 18 Dec 2017

yorkie said:
"A derogatory term but not an insult" is a very bizarre excuse as it's the same thing
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/derogatory

Not an excuse - what I meant by that was that it's not a nice thing to be called but it's not just a name or a slur whose only purpose is to offend. It's an unpleasant word for an unpleasant behaviour, just as it would be to describe somebody as a bully, or abusive, and so on. Derogatory, and factual.

And furthermore,

Smith also points out that the term has mellowed some since it first entered the labor vocabulary.

Words tend to change meanings, emphasis and implications over time. Especially a word that has an almost 900-year history.

tiptoptaff · 18 Dec 2017

Josie said:
Not an excuse - what I meant by that was that it's not a nice thing to be called but it's not just a name or a slur whose only purpose is to offend. It's an unpleasant word for an unpleasant behaviour, just as it would be to describe somebody as a bully, or abusive, and so on. Derogatory, and factual.

And furthermore,

Words tend to change meanings, emphasis and implications over time. Especially a word that has an almost 900-year history.

Alright just shut up and stop making yourself look like an idiot. Calling someone a Scab is clearly meant to offend them. They are not "scabbing" or strike breaking as simply put they are not on strike. Whether they were compelled to by their contract, or chose to do it, the managers are not on strike. Their union (TSSA most likely) have not balloted and called strike-action, and therefore any of their members working cannot be breaking a strike that isn't happening.

It's 2017 - time we got over this pathetic attitude towards staff working in a strike and move on. Why should someone who voted no for strike action be chastised for working on that day and standing by what they believe?

the sniper · 18 Dec 2017

Whether the various rungs of management and office staff have a choice or not, their utilisation by upper management only widens the toxic divide between them and the front line grades, as seen in many TOCs, though not particularly widely in Virgin WC in the past. In the case of this dispute, VT upper management seem to have taken advantage of the DfT's blind eye when it comes to working to avoid industrial action where the RMT are involved. It's a dispute entirely of VT Management's own making, promises were made that couldn't be kept, causing this dispute. The RMT members got the p*** taken out of them and VT management have just been able to ride out this affair, knowing that the DfT will support any cause that goes against the interests of the RMT.

As for the scab thing, if I were a strikebreaker, by choice or not, whether I were considered by some to be a scab or not would be the least troubling thing about the experience... but that's just my conscience.

tiptoptaff said:
They are not "scabbing" or strike breaking as simply put they are not on strike. Whether they were compelled to by their contract, or chose to do it, the managers are not on strike. Their union (TSSA most likely) have not balloted and called strike-action, and therefore any of their members working cannot be breaking a strike that isn't happening.

A strikebreaker is someone who continues working or takes the job of someone while they're on strike, they don't even need to work for the same company, let alone be affected by the dispute in question themselves.

whhistle · 18 Dec 2017

Josie said:
What a horrible way to behave during workers' industrial action.

All your opinion of course.

People who are in management grade must, to an extent, agree with the company stance and thus it's more important for them to run a service to help those people who need to get to work.
I mean, how would you feel if you needed an ambulence but none could get to you because the paramedics were on strike?

Plus, it's almost like "the railway" seem to think striking is acceptable. It doesn't hurt the company, rarely changes things either. ALL it does is bring a bad name to the whole of the railway.

CentralTrainer said:
Do a decent job managing the workforce to avoid strike action being taken maybe?

Does that involve bending over and taking whatever the workers want?
I mean... feel free to tell us all what you would do to "manage the workforce" in this case.

Josie said:
But they don't have to literally learn a new job that isn't in their usual role in order to break that strike.

I agree Managers should support their teams but you'll be surprised what's buried in their contracts...

Josie said:
"Scab" is usually seen as derogatory, but it's not an insult - crossing a picket line to do the job which is normally done by the striking workers on that picket line is scabbing. I don't see how it can be insulting or hypocritical to say that.
But whether or not you, I or any given person thinks it's acceptable behaviour, it's still a fact that they are scabbing - it is a verb as well as a noun, and that is what they are doing.

Sorry, I really can't see how you can use that term and think it's not going to be an insult.
All sources on the internet regard it as an insult, even in the terms of striking.

ComUtoR said:
Really ? T-Keys are generally for operational staff.
It is a very specific piece of equipment for people with a very specific set of skills.

10 a penny on Virgin WC.
I'd also suggest fairly strongly that many of the managers who are dispatching held t-key roles prior to their current job.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for staff voicing their concerns, I just don't think striking solves anything in the end, and I don't think creating bad feeling against those who continue to work shows those in the Union in a good light either.

Josie · 18 Dec 2017

whhistle said:
All your opinion of course.

Of course. It's clear that the opinion of most other posters here is quite different!

whhistle said:
I mean, how would you feel if you needed an ambulence but none could get to you because the paramedics were on strike?

Paramedics and other ambulance staff do indeed strike when necessary. Nobody goes on strike for a laugh, it's a last-resort tactic if workers believe the sustainability of their career/service/livelihood is at risk. I fully supported hospital doctors' industrial action, for example - I'd far rather a reduced service in the short term in order to protect the future of the health service, than allow its management to run it into the ground and not have a health service at all.

whhistle said:
Don't get me wrong, I am all for staff voicing their concerns, I just don't think striking solves anything in the end

Your opinion, of course

As I'm sure you've gathered by now, I don't share it.

Class83 · 18 Dec 2017

What is the underlying change to terms and conditions which is causing this strike action? 3.6% is (marginally) ahead of inflation and well ahead of average earnings increase, so not really justification for a strike. At least with the DOO strikes, even if I disagree, I can see the fundamental issue being contested. Striking over straight up money is often counter-productive as you need to get a really good deal to make up the money lost striking. Bob Crow always was a master of taking it to the line then making a deal, his replacements don't seem to have that skill.

I'm surprised if TSSA members are covering other duties during the strike, non-unionised management are probably in a contractual position where they have limited choices?

tiptoptaff · 19 Dec 2017

Class83 said:
I'm surprised if TSSA members are covering other duties during the strike, non-unionised management are probably in a contractual position where they have limited choices?

It depends on what agreements that TSSA have with the company. They have several "no strike" agreements with various TOCs

Carlisle · 19 Dec 2017

the sniper said:
The RMT members got the p*** taken out of them .

No they didn’t, they’re on what most would acknowledge as good wages and conditions for what they do, however they’re understandably unhappy about gestures given to one grade not being offered to others .

lammergeier · 19 Dec 2017

Carlisle said:
A number of folk may possibly have joined the railway to pursue a career of their choice, rather than a preoccupation with a somewhat dated collective bargaining system which most have no choice whether to be included in or not regardless, of their personal views on the matter .

Attracted in part, no doubt, to the decent wages and T's & C's which those collective bargaining procedures helped negotiate.

driver_m · 19 Dec 2017

Carlisle said:
No they didn’t, they’re on what most would acknowledge as good wages and conditions for what they do, however they’re understandably unhappy about gestures given to one grade not being offered to others .

Isn't that the same thing? On the ground here that's exactly how it's seen, how the sniper calls it. Oh and whhistle, I'd argue your point is incorrect, I know the background of some of these 'despatchers' and no, they're not experienced at all.

As for the scab thing, you may not like it, but it's gone on for a long time and it's in the culture of this country, not just the railway, yeah it's an unpleasant term, but some of the people actively scabbing have riled staff so much in the past it's unsurprising how it's embedded in the thought processes.

Carlisle · 19 Dec 2017

lammergeier said:
Attracted in part, no doubt, to the decent wages and T's & C's which those collective bargaining procedures helped negotiate.

Agreed, that’s a good thing that I’m perfectly happy with., but being realistic, collective bargaining’s only been really effective recently in a few niche areas of the workplace given the right circumstances with a particular employer at a particular time combined with the likes of the rail unions ability to apply sufficient pressure in order to deliver those generous deals. Even the very much left leaning transport expert Christian Woolmar regularly referred to privatised rail operations as pretend capitalism.
People on here who regularly claim unions can do no wrong and should be obeyed at all costs are mainly amongst that fortunate minority,otherwise virtually every RMT represented worker in the U.K. would by now be on far superior conditions to the rest of us.

markydh · 19 Dec 2017

BurgerVan said:
Isn't that the same thing? On the ground here that's exactly how it's seen, how the sniper calls it. Oh and whhistle, I'd argue your point is incorrect, I know the background of some of these 'despatchers' and no, they're not experienced at all.

As for the scab thing, you may not like it, but it's gone on for a long time and it's in the culture of this country, not just the railway, yeah it's an unpleasant term, but some of the people actively scabbing have riled staff so much in the past it's unsurprising how it's embedded in the thought processes.

Perhaps amongst older folk, but I know very few millennials who would dream of using such a term. The strike and union culture isn’t part of our daily lives and it hasn’t been for 2 decades. Union membership falls every year and youth members are very low in most industries represented by unions.

driver_m · 19 Dec 2017

markydh said:
Perhaps amongst older folk, but I know very few millennials who would dream of using such a term. The strike and union culture isn’t part of our daily lives and it hasn’t been for 2 decades. Union membership falls every year and youth members are very low in most industries represented by unions.

Er, try again....I'm a millennial. Also have colleagues younger than me using the same term and the recent north west bus strikes also saw the same language used.
Funnily enough there's a post on twitter by some of RDG's employees who are all doing a gurning smiley selfie which is circulating. Taking pleasure during an act that is directly undermining my colleagues. Needless to say the reaction hasn't been good. And people wander why it's an emotive subject.

shredder1 · 19 Dec 2017

MichaelAMW said:
I don't think you can blame a business for trying to keep their service going in such circumstances... They are neither strike breakers nor blacklegs as they are not on strike. I am a strong supporter of union representation but I don't support incorrectly labelling people in this case. My own concern would be whether they were sufficiently well trained to do the job safely.

Blue feet.

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