That may be the case but it is also the reality.
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The driver's view: 'The memory of a rail suicide never leaves you'
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I know, ignorance is common.
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
It is all down to the individual concerned - people react in different ways. It affects some more than others. In times past you had three days spare - and that was just in case the BTP wanted to see you. We have come a long way since then but these days you sign up to be professional railway staff and it is an unfortunate part of the job. Ambulance drivers, nurses, police officers, fireman see far far worse on a daily basis and receive much less in remuneration. It can be a devastating experience but the average car driver can have someone step out in front of them and there is no automatic 'counselling, paid leave, understanding' for your average Joe/Jane in that situation. It is a terrible thing to happen but train drivers are looked after in such situations far better than others who experience similar tragedies that occur in their day to day working lives.
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
Sadly this is true. Such a time to do it. Unfortunately the mental health crisis we are currently suffering is just going to get worse and worse at the current rate.
221129
Established Member
I'll try telling that to my colleague who is permanently scarred for life because of one of his fatalities, and very nearly died. The emergency services who are underpaid for what they do may well see these things on a regular basis (who btw do have counselling and paid leave if they need it) I would argue a car hitting a person is less graphic than a train weighin in excess of 100 tonnes hitting a person at least with a car you should have time to try and react.
It's pointless comparing road and rail fatalities, obviously neither is pleasant. Anybody who joins the emergency services knows what they are signing up to, they can't have counselling everytime they deal with fatalities.
Mental health problems are increasing plus the people affected are getting younger ,if you have bullying at school or work once you could go home and be away from it.Now you cant social media is the evil in the corner posters hide on it pouring forth evil and increasing your problems ,it reaches a point when there is no way out and you follow ideas you did not think you had then you break not knowing what you are doing that's when other people are involved.The person who replied to my post has obviously not been affected and should have some compassion to others its something that is missing in this day and age.
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
The "general public" bare witness to more suicides than your average train driver - suicide affects more than the individual concerned. When you take in to account family and friends those who witness it then a whole load of people are involved and your 'understanding' is limited to the effects it has on 'you' personally.
You speak as "a" driver - singular, some drivers never drive another train, others are in the canteen scoffing breakfast right after the interview - you can only comment from your own singular perspective. "I Speak as a Driver" does not confer an expertise on the causes and repercussions of suicide
..and the rest of us can try telling your response to anyone who witnesses a non-railway fatality. Ever seen anyone jump off a tall building ?
Committing suicide by throwing yourself under a car/truck/train, off a building is no less traumatic for anyone involved. The railway industry does NOT have a monopoly on the effects of witnessing traumatic death - the railway industry DOES have a better system of care in place for it's employees who witness such incidents.
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
Incidentally on this point ....
"I would argue a car hitting a person is less graphic than a train weighin in excess of 100 tonnes hitting a person at least with a car you should have time to try and react"
Volvo 240 pretty hefty car about 1.5 tons - fatal damage to pedestrian at 30 mph smashed body on road for all to see
A60 stock - around 350 tons (8 cars) - person disappears under train, station cleared only the 'heavy gang' see remains.
It's the fact you use the term ' I would argue '. There is no argument about witnessing a fatality. It's just that there are times I feel (like many of the populace - admittedly fuelled by the gutter press) that witnessing someone jump under a train is portrayed as worse than witnessing someone jump under a bus or a lorry or a car or jump off a building - it's NOT they are ALL equally as distressing to those involved.
"I would argue a car hitting a person is less graphic than a train weighin in excess of 100 tonnes hitting a person at least with a car you should have time to try and react"
Volvo 240 pretty hefty car about 1.5 tons - fatal damage to pedestrian at 30 mph smashed body on road for all to see
A60 stock - around 350 tons (8 cars) - person disappears under train, station cleared only the 'heavy gang' see remains.
It's the fact you use the term ' I would argue '. There is no argument about witnessing a fatality. It's just that there are times I feel (like many of the populace - admittedly fuelled by the gutter press) that witnessing someone jump under a train is portrayed as worse than witnessing someone jump under a bus or a lorry or a car or jump off a building - it's NOT they are ALL equally as distressing to those involved.
I witnessed an awful car crash and helped try and sort out people concerned until the pros arrived I can still see them after forty years it affects you and anyone who says it does not matter has obviously no idea of life.Death affects you and will cause problems no matter what anyone who dismisses it is a total wally ,those of you who have never witnessed death at first hand are very lucky and until you do stop posting rubbish.
I think you've misunderstood what I meant by that and I really don't follow your point.
What I meant was that as someone closely involved in such incidents I can draw the humane conclusion that the victims are not 'in control of their actions' as per the post I challenged, therefor others should understand that too. You seem to make it out to be a competition which is strange. It is very complex and 'responsibility' on the part of the victim has been thrashed out on these forums plenty before.
NI 271
Member
Deleted.
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Mutant Lemming
Established Member
er- no you started the 'competition' by stating 'how much more graphic' a train suicide is. I was merely pointing out that the the rail industry generally looks after it's staff better than equally graphic incidents that occur in other sectors.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Many Police Forces now do offer counselling to those involved in fatal "incidents", and I think you will find that most employers will be very understanding.
Okay you're going to have to quote me where I said that, please.
I'll save you the trouble..I didn't. Take a breath and reread my posts.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
WRONG.
I have friends in all 3 emergency services and they are offered counselling after EVERY fatallity they deal with.
Okay so you've an axe to grind. It really isn't a competition, your incessant need to make it one is insulting, please stop.
Panupreset
Member
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I'll tell you what has improved my understanding of mental health issues - being affected by having run someone over with the train I was driving.
There are plenty of people in the world, on this very forum indeed, myself included, who are intimately familiar with suicidal thoughts and the urge to take one's own life. I would ask that you please take some time to listen and understand our experience, and that the view that you have expressed in your post is both untrue and deeply hurtful.
People who take their own lives aren't 'not thinking of the consequences for others', rather they have concluded that those consequences are insignificant in the face of their reasons for ending things. They are, of course, almost always wrong, and their beliefs almost always irrational. There may even be a small part of them that is aware of the irrationality. But that's rather the problem with mental illness... it can make you do, and believe, sometimes incredibly irrational things.
This attitude is not helpful.
"You saw someone spread over a quarter of a mile of track? You know what you were signing up to."
"The copper got assaulted and spent a week in hospital? They knew what they were signing up to."
"That firefighter saw their oppo die in a house fire? They knew what they were signing up to."
That kind of thing is right up there with "You can't tell me what to do. I pay your wages."
Mental Health provision needs a lot of improvement. All of the mental health training I have done has focussed a lot more on the law than the patient. I don't really care if a patient is under S135 as they are coming from a private dwelling under a warrant, a S136 from a public place or a S2 from a private dwelling. My focus is to the person and how they came to be where they are so that I can understand what is going on and make a dynamic risk assessment. Obviously most of this is communication skills, which is hard to teach in a classroom, but having a long session explaining the difference between different types of sectioning is not really that helpful in the grand scheme of things.
What would greatly help would be the ability to refer people to mental health directly, rather than having to go via a GP or A&E. It is quite frustrating having to take someone who has a mental health issue to a crowded, queuing and noisy A&E on an evening for them to arrange for psych to come and make an assessment because the GP doesn't want to act on it and the Crisis team are not available at the moment and it is after 5pm so there are fewer members of the community mental teams on shift.
That said, the mental health teams would get swamped if direct access was available, so I do understand the logistics of why it is not possible to do this.
Anyway, after that ramble... Knowing that it is possible that you might see something does not mean that you are going to expect the reality of the situation or that you're going to be indifferent to it.
321446
Member
The way it was put to me, and the reason I slammed my metaphorical trapdoor shut when I recognised my own feelings heading that way, is some people who go on to attempt/commit suicide honestly believe that the world would be better off without them.
That is such a scary and sad thing to realise about someone. They felt that worthless and hopeless, life wasn’t worth continuing with and take steps to make it so.
Now the thing about trains is, the one thing they are pretty much spot in at is being the winner when meeting a human body at speed. Depending on the method of choice they can still do a very good job at 3mph. In most of those cases, for the person concerned it will be painless, but only if timing and preparation sre correct. There is also precious little “oh bother...I’ve changed my mind” time. Access to these highly efficient killing machines is easy too.
If I was in the position to declare enough is enough I can see why people use the Railway.
But they are also not considering “The Big Picture” because they are so out of their minds with pain, anguish, despair, depression, hopelessness, of one form or the other.
Not everyone who wants to take that step does so. Some talk themselves out of it or others do it for them. Could even be “you ok mate” breaks the white noise long enough for them to reach out.
Everybody is different. Unfortunately as far as I am concerned some of the narrow minded uncaring souls on here just want to stir up argument about a subject very close to my heart and will just reply that I am wrong and that’s it. Personally, don’t care what you think because you’ll never see things how I do and I haven’t got the energy to write it out slowly for you to grasp that you are not the centre of the interweb and actually are quite unimportant.
Think I’ve said all I need to. Hopefully discussion can continue in an adult and respectful manner. I’ll be snoring over here prior to my 4:23 alarm call so if you could keep the screaming down to a respectful level, I’d be obliged.
That is such a scary and sad thing to realise about someone. They felt that worthless and hopeless, life wasn’t worth continuing with and take steps to make it so.
Now the thing about trains is, the one thing they are pretty much spot in at is being the winner when meeting a human body at speed. Depending on the method of choice they can still do a very good job at 3mph. In most of those cases, for the person concerned it will be painless, but only if timing and preparation sre correct. There is also precious little “oh bother...I’ve changed my mind” time. Access to these highly efficient killing machines is easy too.
If I was in the position to declare enough is enough I can see why people use the Railway.
But they are also not considering “The Big Picture” because they are so out of their minds with pain, anguish, despair, depression, hopelessness, of one form or the other.
Not everyone who wants to take that step does so. Some talk themselves out of it or others do it for them. Could even be “you ok mate” breaks the white noise long enough for them to reach out.
Everybody is different. Unfortunately as far as I am concerned some of the narrow minded uncaring souls on here just want to stir up argument about a subject very close to my heart and will just reply that I am wrong and that’s it. Personally, don’t care what you think because you’ll never see things how I do and I haven’t got the energy to write it out slowly for you to grasp that you are not the centre of the interweb and actually are quite unimportant.
Think I’ve said all I need to. Hopefully discussion can continue in an adult and respectful manner. I’ll be snoring over here prior to my 4:23 alarm call so if you could keep the screaming down to a respectful level, I’d be obliged.
Bromley boy
Established Member
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- 18 Jun 2015
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- 4,611
You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself, for the posts you’ve made on this thread.
I doff my cap to thee, brother. Respect.
321446
Member
Thank-you SPAD
You've totally distorted what I said.
I've got a nephew who is in the BTP, he's had some unpleasant stuff to deal with but he knew what he was getting into when he signed up. Got it now?
Doesn't make it any less emotionally traumatic.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I think you will find you are talking utter balderdash.
From speaking to friends in the emergency services (police/fire) that is exactly what happens. As part of their employer responsibility/ duty of care to their employees they are offered support every time they deal with a traumatic incident. That doesn't mean a sit down with a counselor but may mean been offered the internal version of the Samartians.
Yes there is counselling available to those who need it, most don't and accept that dealing with unpleasant incidents comes with the job.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Indeed - however it is ( or should) be offered. That might only be a leaflet with the carecall number on it. No one is forced to undergo any counselling. One of my friends explained how he had only taken up the offer once or twice after particularly unpleasant situations involving children. He is a fireman.
he made a valuable point that we while are all big hard men and don't need to talk to people about namby pamby things like feelings sometimes you do and if you don't it will only get worse. Most importantly there is no shame in admitting that and that he found his colleagues were very supportive and happy to explain how it had helped them when he opened up to them about asking for that help.
I had to wait quite a while to see a councillor and it was not on the NHS as they had a six month waiting list but I waited and went unfortunately many do not wait .Mental health is a difficult subject as everyone is different and treatment complex , but for some it does not work and they take their own lives much to the chagrin of those left behind.Everyone involved needs help not brushing aside and told don't be a nuisance as I want to ignore life as it really is so please those of you who not been affected by this awful subject just read what sufferes say you might learn something to your benefit.
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