'No room' on train for Paralympian

CentralTrainer · 23 Dec 2017

If it were passengers refusing to move luggage from a spot designated for wheelchairs then I’d simply adopt the 70s approach mentioned here previously - with the relevant cases finding themselves on the platform with or without their owners.

RailUK Forums

Darandio · 23 Dec 2017

Starmill said:
Wait, wait. You mean to tell me that people are making angry comments and throwing abuse around on Twitter? Unbelievable. So unexpected.

I did say it didn't surprise me in post 3.

TUC · 23 Dec 2017

gray1404 said:
Can we please stop using the term able bodied here. It is 2017 already. Some passengers may not have a physical disability but rather a non visible disability which is hidden (which could be physical or otherwise). They are still disabled and may need a priority seat. Use of language like able bodied is wrong. Do we want a situation whereby we encourage people to say: "You do not look disabled [enough]."

If people really want to use the term "able bodied" how about using the terms "passenger with a disability" and "passenger without a disability" instead.

The fact remains if, hypothetically, it was a passenger with an invisible disability occupying the space, if they want to be certain of remaining in that space, it was down to them to make a reservation in advance for it. A passenger with a disability who hasn't made a reservation and happens to have got on the train first cannot trump a passenger with a disability who has made a reservation.

TUC · 23 Dec 2017

What might focus minds is if staff were given the power to impose a penalty fare on a passenger who refused to move from a seat/space that had an existing reservation for a disabled passenger.

bramling · 23 Dec 2017

TUC said:
What might focus minds is if staff were given the power to impose a penalty fare on a passenger who refused to move from a seat/space that had an existing reservation for a disabled passenger.

All this talk about penalties, throwing people or belongings off or whatever is all very well, but reality is it simply doesn’t happen. Tempers are already on the edge when things are overcrowded, and add in that the pre-Christmas frenzy is an emotive time for many (e.g. “this is the only time I see my kids so I’m getting to X come what may” or whatever) plus the fact that there’s a greater than normal chance of alcohol being involved, and it won’t be long before there’s trouble. BTP aren’t everywhere, and - rightly or wrongly - reality is they are unlikely to be too interested until after the assault has happened.

HSTEd · 23 Dec 2017

Bletchleyite said:
I’ve never been on a train in the UK where you couldn’t have moved them elsewhere, even if that was to inside the bog or declassifying 1st. People can always squash up a bit more, they just choose not to. In particular, there is almost always room in the middle of the saloon of an end doored coach.

I have.

Train crush loaded throughout with people crammed into every available space.
I ended up sitting in the luggage rack.

So what happens in that situation?

Marklund · 23 Dec 2017

At this time of year, when there's a lot more luggage and larger heavier clothing take up overhead rack space, it's no surprise that the wheelchair space is used to put cases, as there's precious little extra space for it.

Antman · 23 Dec 2017

Robertj21a said:
Thanks. I was hoping that somebody amongst the rail staff actually had some authority to do something. You have to wonder just how determined/assertive the rail staff were. On buses, where the same problem arises, the driver will attempt to get co-operation from the other passengers, but may also decide to simply switch off until 'passenger-power' encourages some progress.

Which bus drivers do that? None that I know of.

You can ask people to move but if they are unable or unwilling to there isn't much more that can be done. I wasn't present at the incident this thread refers to so I won't pass judgment without the full facts.

Robertj21a · 23 Dec 2017

Sussex Guy said:
Which bus drivers do that? None that I know of.

You can ask people to move but if they are unable or unwilling to there isn't much more that can be done. I wasn't present at the incident this thread refers to so I won't pass judgment without the full facts.

You clearly know few bus drivers.

PHILIPE · 23 Dec 2017

She once arrived at Kings Cross well after midnight and booked assistance failed to show resulting in her to have to try and manouver
her wheelchair off the train herself with her in it. Luckily somebody (not the booked assistance) appeared and was able to help.

Antman · 23 Dec 2017

Robertj21a said:
You clearly know few bus drivers.

Nobody can make anybody move.

WatcherZero · 23 Dec 2017

Shes since said the tweet was 'a moment of anger' and there really was no room on the train.

CentralTrainer · 23 Dec 2017

Sussex Guy said:
Nobody can make anybody move.

And that is what is wrong with society today in a nutshell

Bovverboy · 23 Dec 2017

Starmill said:
What actually happened in this case is a very long way from clear.

Exactly, you get the feeling that there's more to this than has come out up to now.
How come we're not getting tweets from passengers who were on the train?

Robertj21a · 23 Dec 2017

Sussex Guy said:
Nobody can make anybody move.

Where did I say they could ?

TUC · 23 Dec 2017

HSTEd said:
I have.

Train crush loaded throughout with people crammed into every available space.
I ended up sitting in the luggage rack.

So what happens in that situation?

Where a disabled passenger has a reservation for a space, should there be some physical barrier made available to easily put into place so that the space isn't used by other passengers?

Jonny · 23 Dec 2017

Sussex Guy said:
Nobody can make anybody move.

Nor should anybody be able to, given that there would otherwise be a slippery slope from the hard cases down to politically correct ones...

TUC · 23 Dec 2017

bramling said:
All this talk about penalties, throwing people or belongings off or whatever is all very well, but reality is it simply doesn’t happen. Tempers are already on the edge when things are overcrowded, and add in that the pre-Christmas frenzy is an emotive time for many (e.g. “this is the only time I see my kids so I’m getting to X come what may” or whatever) plus the fact that there’s a greater than normal chance of alcohol being involved, and it won’t be long before there’s trouble. BTP aren’t everywhere, and - rightly or wrongly - reality is they are unlikely to be too interested until after the assault has happened.

But a penalty fare is a very focussed response to such a situation. If one of the issues is that staff have very few levers when a passenger refused to move, then saying that such a lever should not be used because some passengers might be irritated at it doesn't move the situation forward. Passengers are often irritated at penalty fares in other contexts. It isn't used as an argument not to have penalty fares.

As for the 'this is the only time I can see my kids' argument, no one is saying the other passenger shouldn't remain on the train, only that they need to get out of occupying that space.

Jonny · 23 Dec 2017

And, coercion inevitably creates ill-will. Legislation into compassion does not work; in fact it cannot work.

Jonny · 23 Dec 2017

TUC said:
But a penalty fare is a very focussed response to such a situation. If one of the issues is that staff have very few levers when a passenger refused to move, then saying that such a lever should not be used because some passengers might be irritated at it doesn't move the situation forward. Passengers are often irritated at penalty fares in other contexts. It isn't used as an argument not to have penalty fares.

Given that penalty fares per se are only for failure to purchase the correct ticket for the journey, anything else would be at least a misuse if not an abuse of the scheme.

Edit: PS: What if there were so many standing passengers that there was no way to even reach the wheelchair space without turfing other passengers off?

daikilo · 23 Dec 2017

According to this document:
https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/component/arkhive/?task=file.download&id=469762587
a prior reservation of a wheelchair space will "Where available, train staff will also assist you if you need a wheelchair space and make sure other customers do not block the area with their luggage; they can help with food and refreshments from the buffet, or simply alert you when your station is coming up".
This suggests that it is the role of the train staff (not station staff) and they are authorised to have luggage moved.

Station staff may help with the installation and use of the ramp.

eastdyke · 23 Dec 2017

daikilo said:
According to this document:
https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/component/arkhive/?task=file.download&id=469762587
a prior reservation of a wheelchair space will "Where available, train staff will also assist you if you need a wheelchair space and make sure other customers do not block the area with their luggage; they can help with food and refreshments from the buffet, or simply alert you when your station is coming up".
This suggests that it is the role of the train staff (not station staff) and they are authorised to have luggage moved.

Station staff may help with the installation and use of the ramp.

Do we know that there was actually a reservation for this train?

221129 · 23 Dec 2017

eastdyke said:
Do we know that there was actually a reservation for this train?

I would guess not seeing as a lot of it was made up or exaggerated

Busaholic · 23 Dec 2017

WatcherZero said:
Shes since said the tweet was 'a moment of anger' and there really was no room on the train.

No, she said the other twenty odd people waiting for the train were able to get on, but she wasn't able to because another female passenger not in a wheelchair refused to move from the designated space. I'd have had more than a moment of anger if I'd been in her position. As a bus passenger I've directed my venom to someone being utterly selfish in a similar situation and they did, with bad grace, move, muttering threats to me under their breath.

aylesbury · 23 Dec 2017

People are ignorant saw a group of four who took reserved seats and refused to move and were downright rude to rightful passengers even the conductor could not do it.He found them seats in first good service by Virgin and many passengers voiced there dislike of what happened.Has Ms Grey done something like this before on twitter same sort of incident.?

Dentonian · 23 Dec 2017

Sussex Guy said:
Which bus drivers do that? None that I know of.

You can ask people to move but if they are unable or unwilling to there isn't much more that can be done. I wasn't present at the incident this thread refers to so I won't pass judgment without the full facts.

There was a high profile case involving First Yorkshire about wheelchair "priority" recently which I think confirmed a bus driver had no power to force other passengers to make room for a wheelchair user. How often this is a problem in practise is he question, though as no matter how full a bus is, I've never seen any confrontation between any parties in GM. Surely, the far bigger problem is wheelchair users not being able to use buses - or simply not have the confidence to attempt it - because of bus stop blocking.
I remember where I used to live; a large "overspill" estate with a long history of bus usage (and trolleybus and "proper" tram before motorbuses). By 2001, virtually all routes on the estate had been converted to low floor buses, but by the time I moved away from the estate in 2006, I had NEVER seen a wheelchair user on a bus from the estate or through the town centre. Only when the Manchester route reached the outskirts of the city did you see wheelchair users, because bus stop blocking was/is much less of a problem - until you ge into the city centre itself of course!

Llanigraham · 23 Dec 2017

221129 said:
I would guess not seeing as a lot of it was made up or exaggerated

Are you insinuating that Dame Tanni has made this up?
Having met her twice I suggest you could not be more wrong.

Marklund · 23 Dec 2017

WatcherZero said:
Shes since said the tweet was 'a moment of anger' and there really was no room on the train.

Crying wolf doesn't help her, or other disabled people's cause in the future.

Bletchleyite · 24 Dec 2017

Deafdoggie said:
Not sure it would help too much, I have not seen people with more than the allowance each. The problem is a lot of people bring the allowance, particularity on longer distance trains

No, the problem is the stupidly small racks on some trains, most notably 175/180 and anything Bombardier have ever built for the UK.

Bletchleyite · 24 Dec 2017

HSTEd said:
I have.

Train crush loaded throughout with people crammed into every available space.
I ended up sitting in the luggage rack.

So what happens in that situation?

In that situation there is no room for another passenger to board, whether in a wheelchair or not, therefore there is equality.

If the wheelchair user can board at all, there is by definition space for them to be in the proper area.

'No room' on train for Paralympian

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