What do you do if you see disruptive passengers or passengers smoking?

This evening while I was waiting for a train inside there was a man who was being disruptive, drinking wine out the bottle and smoking indoors. I saw a member of the station staff who spoke to the man and ejected him from the station.

I was wondering what you do if you come across disruptive or abusive passengers on trains or stations?

With me a couple of times I have asked station staff to ask people not to smoke but overall the observance of the smoking ban on stations is very high. A couple of times on the train when I have come across disruptive passengers who throw bottles or play fight on the train I have gone to fetch the train manager as its not really an environment suitable for the train.

I tend to feel (correctly or not) that someone behaving like that will ignore any attempt to make them change it. :/

Absolutely nothing.

It’s simply not worth the agro. The kind of idiot who is smoking on a train is hardly likely to take kindly to being asked to stop.

There are far too many selfish/psychotic people around these days for me to want to risk life and limb by correcting them, sadly.

thenorthern said:

I was wondering what you do if you come across disruptive or abusive passengers on trains or stations?

Click to expand...

It's not possible to answer that question without saying "it depends..." In fact it depends on many factors.

I was surprised to see someone smoking while waiting at the 1st class end of York platform 3 before 10am last month. Obviously that's an easy one to challenge, it's a busy platform with people who I'm sure would back me up. He did stop immediately.

I challenged someone smoking at Leighton Buzzard around midday a few months ago. He ignored me initially. I had to use a raised authoritative voice before he would stop. He also got some 'words of advice' from a forum member (who conveniently happened to work for the train company). He wasn't happy at being told off, but hopefully he learnt his lesson.

I have experience of dealing with challenging individuals, through one of the jobs I do.

But challenging people late at night or in large groups is a completely different scenario.

There is no simple answer to the question.

Bromley boy said:

Absolutely nothing.

It’s simply not worth the agro. The kind of idiot who is smoking on a train is hardly likely to take kindly to being asked to stop.

Click to expand...

Quite right.

In my experience, every time anyone tries to smoke on a train, it will be in the toilet and the smoke detector will activate and staff will act accordingly.

If someone smokes on a station platform, ok it's wrong, but does it really bother you so much that you feel the need to personally intervene?

At open air platforms good luck getting people to not smoke! I know most stations now prohibit eCigs too, but people don't care - I work at a hospital and people gladly smoke right outside the main entrance, funnily enough directly in front of the 'no smoking' sign!

On the alcohol side, it would be interesting to know the policy for that at various stations etc - I will be the first to admit at Leeds station if I have been sat on the concourse waiting for a delayed train I can be quite tempted now and again to whip out a can of beer if I've been shopping rather than paying the over inflated station bar prices!

Northern give a very vague answer to such a question in fact :-
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/faq/on-the-train/106-can-i-drink-alcohol-on-trains-or-at-stations

You are allowed to consume alcohol on our trains; however, we do not tolerate any anti-social behaviour.
Under the railway byelaws, if you are deemed to be intoxicated we may ask you to leave the train or station.

Mugby said:

Quite right.

In my experience, every time anyone tries to smoke on a train, it will be in the toilet and the smoke detector will activate and staff will act

Click to expand...

Trains dont have smoke detectors in the toilets. The only trains that have internal fire/smoke detection are the CS and GWR sleeper coaches.

380101 said:

Trains dont have smoke detectors in the toilets. The only trains that have internal fire/smoke detection are the CS and GWR sleeper coaches.

Click to expand...

I beg to differ. I've been on various trains when cigarette smoke in a toilet has activated a detection device.

You send a text message to BTP on 61016 stating what station you are in/train you are on, which carriage, and what the complaint is. Let them deal with it.
http://www.btp.police.uk/61016_text_service1.aspx

Mugby said:

I beg to differ. I've been on various trains when cigarette smoke in a toilet has activated a detection device.

Click to expand...

I can only go on being a driver that drives a fairly new Siemens built train and there is certainly no smoke detection system installed in the toilets. Also, the bang up to date toilets being fitted in our older units do not have smoke detectors either.

johntea said:

I know most stations now prohibit eCigs too, but people don't care - I work at a hospital and people gladly smoke right outside the main entrance, funnily enough directly in front of the 'no smoking' sign!

Click to expand...

I use my eCig at stations and on trains when there's nobody around to object. I have a low objection threshold which in practice means that if I'm on a train I'll only use it if my vapour and I have no line of sight to other passengers, else I'll move to the vestibule for a few drags. I'm presumably breaching some byelaw or other, but as long as the impact on other passengers is the small possibility of a fleeting smell of menthol I don't feel particularly antisocial.

Bromley boy said:

Absolutely nothing.

It’s simply not worth the agro. The kind of idiot who is smoking on a train is hardly likely to take kindly to being asked to stop.

There are far too many selfish/psychotic people around these days for me to want to risk life and limb by correcting them, sadly.

Click to expand...

Finally, someone who thinks the same way as me!!!

I had the misfortune of witnessing someone get beat up on a train once. It took the police half an hour to arrive and break up the fight; there were no railway staff in sight at all during that time.

I agree that the best option if someone is smoking or being otherwise disruptive is to stay out of it; alert a member of staff if it is something major, but otherwise just stay out of it

DanNCL said:

I had the misfortune of witnessing someone get beat up on a train once. It took the police half an hour to arrive and break up the fight; there were no railway staff in sight at all during that time.

I agree that the best option if someone is smoking or being otherwise disruptive is to stay out of it; alert a member of staff if it is something major, but otherwise just stay out of it

Click to expand...

Oh my god that’s awful!!!

TT-ONR-NRN said:

Oh my god that’s awful!!!

Click to expand...

It was also during the middle of rush hour; the train was packed. Though one of the worst things about was that many of the other passengers got their phones out and started recording it! Some people are heartless

I've told station staff about a smoker on an enclosed platform. They put out a PA announcement addressing the person directly "this is an announcement for the gentleman on platform 6 in the green jacket and jeans smoking, yes you. It's illegal to smoke here. Stop" That did the trick. A bit of shaming, and no face to face showdown.

As for vaping, couldn't care less. Someone vaping is not doing me any harm. Don't know why it's banned.

DanNCL said:

I had the misfortune of witnessing someone get beat up on a train once. It took the police half an hour to arrive and break up the fight; there were no railway staff in sight at all during that time.

Click to expand...

In that situation staff would be quite within their rights to extricate themselves from the situation and get to a position of safety (a locked back cab in the case of the guard).

They can’t be expected to do beyond calling the police to meet the train. At the end of the day staff are not security guards nor police officers.

Bromley boy said:

In that situation staff would be quite within their rights to extricate themselves from the situation and get to a position of safety (a locked back cab in the case of the guard).

They can’t be expected to do beyond calling the police to meet the train. At the end of the day staff are not security guards nor police officers.

Click to expand...

Therefore the term “guard” seems misleading!

I wonder if that’s a reason why they say train manager instead?

Bromley boy said:

At the end of the day staff are not security guards nor police officers.

Click to expand...

Just as an aside, whose job is it to enforce railway byelaws?

I was at Bromley South yesterday evening and somebody smoking on the platform was informed over the tannoy that they were breaking the law and promptly put it out with a rather embarrassed look on his face he claimed that he didn't know, I think the law has been in place long enough now. Generally it doesn't seem to be a problem though, most people go outside to smoke.

*Informing the errant smoker over the PA seems a sensible way of avoiding any possible conflict.

adc82140 said:

I've told station staff about a smoker on an enclosed platform. They put out a PA announcement addressing the person directly "this is an announcement for the gentleman on platform 6 in the green jacket and jeans smoking, yes you. It's illegal to smoke here. Stop" That did the trick. A bit of shaming, and no face to face showdown.

As for vaping, couldn't care less. Someone vaping is not doing me any harm. Don't know why it's banned.

Click to expand...

Are you serious? Vaping is even worse than traditional cigarette smoke.

Here is the right idea.

TT-ONR-NRN said:

Finally, someone who thinks the same way as me!!!

Click to expand...

For low level stuff, yes I generally leave alone. One occasion when I did speak up has stuck in my mind.

I had boarded a late night train home at Charing + and noticed a girl who was paralytically drunk passed out on the seats opposite me. A couple of stations further on a loan male boarded, spotted her and sat opposite her. He started touching her shoulders and trying speak to her. I spoke up at that point and asked what the hell he was doing (it was obvious he intended to do something very inappropriate)...

He didn’t take too kindly to being challenged and I ended up in a physical stand off with him. Thankfully he backed down when he realised I was a lot bigger than him.

On hearing raised voices most other people simply walked up the carriage, no doubt assuming it was just another drunken argument, so I had absolutely no backup from other passengers (I don’t blame them for this, but it would have been nice to have some back up!).

Luckily he got off the train almost immediately and I ended up helping the female off the train at my local station, the incident having sobered her up a little. She was very grateful, and no harm done, but I was slightly annoyed she’d put herself (and me!) in such a vulnerable position in the first place.

That was a few years back now and I like to think I would do the same today, but I can’t help but wonder what might have happened if he’d had a knife...

TT-ONR-NRN said:

Therefore the term “guard” seems misleading!

I wonder if that’s a reason why they say train manager instead?

Click to expand...

Guard is an old title referring to protecting the rear end of the train in the event of issues when it was quite literally possible for the driver to for example break a coupling on a loose coupled train (that's one with no through train brakes on it's vehicles, largely phased out by the 80s and entirely by the 90s) and drive off without the rear end, not being aware until they reached the next signalbox. The guard would apply their brake in the brake van and bring the train to a stand. Even after that until the early 2000s the guard was responsible for protecting (with detonators) the rear of the train while the driver was responsible for the front.

Bromley boy said:

In that situation staff would be quite within their rights to extricate themselves from the situation and get to a position of safety (a locked back cab in the case of the guard).

They can’t be expected to do beyond calling the police to meet the train. At the end of the day staff are not security guards nor police officers.

Click to expand...

It depends on your workplace. On my 15x units unless we are talking a full scale riot it's well worth your time to maintain a presence in the area to prevent anyone pulling the passcom and stranding you somewhere where assistance from the police is difficult since we don't have override buttons.

My preferred option if I'm told a fight is taking place is to go down and have a look at what is occurring, if I think I can intervene safely, do so, if not tell anyone in the vicinity that I'm aware of what is happening so not to pull the cord and that I'm going to radio the police. Then head back to the cab, do the necessities with the GSMR (a few of us and some controllers have worked out they can transfer us to 999 or BTP so we can use the GSMR to talk to them directly) and then make announcements regularly telling people that we are aware of the incident, police are en route and to stay away if they're not involved so as not to get dragged in.

Usually works for me. In the event of a larger problem (luckily I've only had 2) in both cases they've been on full and standing trains unfortunately so I have instructed the driver to stop at the next suitable station, gone down to have a look where possible and then got the doors open to allow it to spill off the train on to the platform so there aren't innocent folk trapped in a confined space at risk.

Fights on moving trains are massive pains in the backside and really quite dangerous and should be treated as such by the courts rather than using the usual legislation.

TT-ONR-NRN said:

Finally, someone who thinks the same way as me!!!

Click to expand...

I would (reluctantly) take the same stance. You don't know who you are dealing with, and if you are going to start something, make sure you have a good chance of finishing it, or pay the price. People have been killed for confrointing someones behaviour.

Bromley boy said:

For low level stuff, yes I generally leave alone. One occasion when I did speak up has stuck in my mind.

I had boarded a late night train home at Charing + and noticed a girl who was paralytically drunk passed out on the seats opposite me. A couple of stations further on a loan male boarded, spotted her and sat opposite her. He started touching her shoulders and trying speak to her. I spoke up at that point and asked what the hell he was doing (it was obvious he intended to do something very inappropriate)...

He didn’t take too kindly to being challenged and I ended up in a physical stand off with him. Thankfully he backed down when he realised I was a lot bigger than him.

On hearing raised voices most other people simply walked up the carriage, no doubt assuming it was just another drunken argument, so I had absolutely no backup from other passengers (I don’t blame them for this, but it would have been nice to have some back up!).

Luckily he got off the train almost immediately and I ended up helping the female off the train at my local station, the incident having sobered her up a little. She was very grateful, and no harm done, but I was slightly annoyed she’d put herself (and me!) in such a vulnerable position in the first place.

That was a few years back now and I like to think I would do the same today, but I can’t help but wonder what might have happened if he’d had a knife...

Click to expand...

Careful, you are in danger of crossing the line into victim blaming there. The fault was with the pervert with possible sexual intentions, not the woman. Few people (I hope) would say in the situation of a cyclist being hit by a careless driver that it was the cyclists fault for choosing to cycle on the road.

TT-ONR-NRN said:

Therefore the term “guard” seems misleading!

I wonder if that’s a reason why they say train manager instead?

Click to expand...

Guard is the traditional safety critical role to do with “guarding” the back of the train, not providing personal protection to passengers!

I think the titles have changed to reflect the fact that many “guards” have a customer service element to their role these days. Some have lost their safety critical status entirely (think GTR OBSs) so are no longer “guards” in the rulebook sense.

LowLevel said:

It depends on your workplace. On my 15x units unless we are talking a full scale riot it's well worth your time to maintain a presence in the area to prevent anyone pulling the passcom and stranding you somewhere where assistance from the police is difficult since we don't have override buttons.

Click to expand...

That sounds like a very sensible approach.

On DOO trains if a fight starts the first the driver would know about is of course a passcom activation. Thankfully we do have overrides and the course of action would probably be to proceed to the next station and try and assess the situation before going back to reset it.

It all depends on the situation. I am rarely on a train nowadays. The thing I try to draw peoples attention to when the red mist descends and they start going for it is that there are probably 5-10 people sat here watching it all and CCTV. No point having the day/evening spoilt over what is usually spilt milk/ego.

al78 said:

Careful, you are in danger of crossing the line into victim blaming there. The fault was with the pervert with possible sexual intentions, not the woman. Few people (I hope) would say in the situation of a cyclist being hit by a careless driver that it was the cyclists fault for choosing to cycle on the road.

Click to expand...

That’s hardly the same situation!

Considering I had risked life and limb challenging the bloke, I fully realise he was at fault. As an innocent bystandar I was also a “victim” of this situation.

But the fact remains if you get into a train in the state she was in, you are increasing your risks of being robbed or attacked. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with stating this simple fact (which is just common sense for the vast majority of people).

Sussex Guy said:

Are you serious? Vaping is even worse than traditional cigarette smoke.

Click to expand...

Maybe I should ask you the very same, ARE YOU SERIOUS? Nobody has died from vaping yet, how many have died through traditional smoke? So to say vaping is worse than normal smoke is just what those at the top want you to say.