• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Fixed-formation EMUs (e.g. six cars or longer)

Status
Not open for further replies.

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,455
I’ve heard a number of EMUs being described as being composed of two “half-trains”. Would it be possible to compile a list of all incoming EMU types consisting of six cars or more per unit, and whether or not they indeed are made up of two half-trains in their service formation.

The easiest way to see this from the outside, I think, is whether two pantographs are raised on a unit, at opposite ends.

Off the top of my head, I believe that the Thameslink 700s and Crossrail 345s consist of these “half-trains”. What about the ten car Class 720s, for example?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
What about the ten car Class 720s, for example?

It seems to be the case that they will be two half trains based on this post. I would anticipate that most trains longer than 5 cars will be formed of 2 half trains, as I understand 5 to be some sort of hard limit on the Train Management System used by Bombardier, presuming that it is much the same between Electrostar and Aventra. The interesting one will be the Moorgate Desiro Cities - I would anticipate them also being formed of 2 3 car halves, but they could well be a single unit.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,224
It seems to be the case that they will be two half trains based on this post. I would anticipate that most trains longer than 5 cars will be formed of 2 half trains, as I understand 5 to be some sort of hard limit on the Train Management System used by Bombardier, presuming that it is much the same between Electrostar and Aventra. The interesting one will be the Moorgate Desiro Cities - I would anticipate them also being formed of 2 3 car halves, but they could well be a single unit.

The Desiro City sets come from Siemens, who are running 8 and 12 car single trains on Thameslink. If I'm not mistaken, the 8 and 12 car sets are both formed of two half sets. A 6 car train could just be the same as a half 12-car set.
 

Lrd

Established Member
Joined
26 Jul 2010
Messages
3,018
Most of the London Underground trains are formed of multiple units. The Central Line trains are 4 units, Bakerloo line is 2 units, S stock is 2 units for example.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,455
It seems to be the case that they will be two half trains based on this post.

Fair enough, took me a few reads to make sense of that for some reason! One wouldn't tend to see 750V across autocouplers...

The Desiro City sets come from Siemens, who are running 8 and 12 car single trains on Thameslink. If I'm not mistaken, the 8 and 12 car sets are both formed of two half sets. A 6 car train could just be the same as a half 12-car set.

That's exactly my thinking. Could it be considered short-sighted that the Class 378s are not capable of being extended to six cars? Or would that have made them too expensive to procure?

Most of the London Underground trains are formed of multiple units. The Central Line trains are 4 units, Bakerloo line is 2 units, S stock is 2 units for example.

That's definitely an example that I had considered. On the National Rail side "half-trains" are a more recent development :)
 
Last edited:

LunchSociety

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2017
Messages
25
The other example that comes immediately to mind is the Class 373 Eurostar sets though of course they are certainly no longer new by any stretch of the imagination.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,263
Location
St Albans
The other example that comes immediately to mind is the Class 373 Eurostar sets though of course they are certainly no longer new by any stretch of the imagination.

Interestingly, including the class373 seems to confirm that separately recoverable half units could be a current requirement for trains that have extensive tunnel routes, particularly where the prompt recovery of failed units reduces severe operational consequences.
 

superalbs

Established Member
Joined
3 Jul 2014
Messages
2,469
Location
Exeter
I understand 5 to be some sort of hard limit on the Train Management System used by Bombardier.
How does that work on Class 222s then, 3+4 car half-units?

Not that they are EMUs, but I imagine the principle is all the same.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,455
How does that work on Class 222s then, 3+4 car half-units?

Not that they are EMUs, but I imagine the principle is all the same.

I think the 222 software will be vastly different to that of the 378.

Don't forget that EMUs are generally limited in maximum length by their the traction supply equipment, before a second transformer coach is required. That's the point at which more significant engineering may be required.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
Although they usually only need one pantograph up, class 390s are effectively two or three (11 car) units as far as the traction systems go
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,455
Although they usually only need one pantograph up, class 390s are effectively two or three (11 car) units as far as the traction systems go

Indeed, I was wondering about that. I remember reading that one of the additional coaches on the 11 car units included an additional transformer.
 

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
3,851
Location
St Neots
Most of the London Underground trains are formed of multiple units. The Central Line trains are 4 units, Bakerloo line is 2 units, S stock is 2 units for example.

'92 Tube Stock is a mix of 4+2+2 and 4+4 isn't it?
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,224
What about 7 car 222s? A 3 and a 4?

DMUs are different because each vehicle powers itself independently. On an EMU, the traction system will typically be distributed across different carriages. There might still be some restrictions (such as the reason why the two spare Voyager driving vehicles couldn't make a train) but in general there's more flexibility.
 

keith1879

Member
Joined
1 Jun 2015
Messages
393
Not quite the same thing but the original Trans-Pennine units of the 1960s were built and initially operated as 17 3 car half-sets (8 with buffets and 9 without). Not sure what happened after the buffets were withdrawn but as the motor coaches weren't tremendously reliable I suspect that they lost any real semblance of fixed formations.
 

LiftFan

Member
Joined
27 May 2016
Messages
344
What formation would the 9 car class 800 be? These will be GWR's trains that you can walk the entire length so I'm guessing something like 4+5.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,097
Although they usually only need one pantograph up, class 390s are effectively two or three (11 car) units as far as the traction systems go

Indeed, I was wondering about that. I remember reading that one of the additional coaches on the 11 car units included an additional transformer.
Come on, there is only 1 driving cab at each end, so a 390 is one unit, whether it has 2 or 3 transformers fed from the one pantograph. It might (or might not, I don't think we have been told) be able to run coupled with another [whole] unit.. If it can then it's an EMU. If it can't it's not.
I suppose a half-unit does imply that part of a unit might not have all the kit it needs to be useable though.
 

Dstock7080

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2010
Messages
2,768
Location
West London
Most of the London Underground trains are formed of multiple units. . . S stock is 2 units for example.
Unfortunately not.
2009 Stock have auto-couplers and an emergency driving position between the units.
S Stock have no such facility and can only be divided between any cars within a depot. There are not ‘2 units’.
 
Last edited:

Lrd

Established Member
Joined
26 Jul 2010
Messages
3,018
Unfortunately not.
2009 Stock have auto-couplers and an emergency driving position between the units.
S Stock have no such facility and can only be divided between any cars within a depot. There are not ‘two units’.
Ah I knew it was one of the two, should've went for the obvious one. Thanks
 

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,623
Unless the definition has changed, I believe a formation made up of "two half-sets" refers to them being essentially autonomous as far as systems are concerned but without the "inner" driving cabs. It is thus for maintenance purposes only and the "inner" ends will not be used for driving in service. However, I think it also allows a train to rescue itself when one half-set has failed. I would not expect the inner ends of half-sets to be fitted with full autocouplers.

I am not aware of any British DMUs made up of true "half-sets".
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,086
So will these half-sets get swapped about? People who spot and scratch by set number rather than vehicle number would have a problem!
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,263
Location
St Albans
Unless the definition has changed, I believe a formation made up of "two half-sets" refers to them being essentially autonomous as far as systems are concerned but without the "inner" driving cabs. It is thus for maintenance purposes only and the "inner" ends will not be used for driving in service. However, I think it also allows a train to rescue itself when one half-set has failed. I would not expect the inner ends of half-sets to be fitted with full autocouplers.

I am not aware of any British DMUs made up of true "half-sets".

I think a modern definition would be the current practice of system autonomy, i.e. traction/brakes and auxiliaries necesaary to recover the whole unite whatever the failure is on one half, (even locked brakes if they can be manually released. A consequence of modern high-frequency services over intensively used tracks is the difficulty providing third-party recovery vehicles. Usually by the time a disabling failure is confirmed, access would require wrong-line running to reach a stranded train because the following trains are already stacked up at a series of red signals. It would also extend the time that passengers were locked in the system, - something that the railway is getting increasingly criticised for. The class700s (and maybe 345s) can go a stage further and use following trains to push the failed unit to a safe place. Thus an 8-car 700 can push a dead 12-car up the 1:29 gradients out of the Thameslink core. Maybe even on half of an 8-car unit can push whole unit up the slopes, albeit very slowly.
Because of the increasing need for this designed-in capability, I suspect that any new EMU (6 cars +) intended to run as single units will be so equipped so that will become the established meaning of 'half sets'.
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,439
Location
UK
I think a modern definition would be the current practice of system autonomy, i.e. traction/brakes and auxiliaries necessary to recover the whole unit whatever the failure is on one half,(even locked brakes if they can be manually released.)

I think the problem with 'half and half' units is that regardless of if they can or cannot recover themselves, when a unit fails, the whole thing fails. When brakes lock on they tend to lock on the whole unit. Traction has always failed locally as that tends to fail on a single motor. You run around with low power and the unit can move, just slow and under-powered. Every unit I drive can release the brakes locally so it really isn't a 'modern' approach. It has however, got better and easier over time.

A consequence of modern high-frequency services over intensively used tracks is the difficulty providing third-party recovery vehicles. Usually by the time a disabling failure is confirmed, access would require wrong-line running to reach a stranded train because the following trains are already stacked up at a series of red signals. It would also extend the time that passengers were locked in the system, - something that the railway is getting increasingly criticised for.

One of my first failures, I wasn't driving, had a 400 in the front and a 375 behind. We were in a 465. The issue is multiple unit types and different coupler's that are not compatible. I was stunned that the 700 went with another new coupler. To me this is a design flaw. Why design another bespoke couple for no apparent reason. Not only that, with a 700 the process requires multiple people and additional equipment not stored on the unit.

The class700s (and maybe 345s) can go a stage further and use following trains to push the failed unit to a safe place. Thus an 8-car 700 can push a dead 12-car up the 1:29 gradients out of the Thameslink core. Maybe even on half of an 8-car unit can push whole unit up the slopes, albeit very slowly.

There are a couple of issues at hand here. Firstly, you realize its possible for units to push each other even when one unit has a full brake application, granted that would bugger the track. However, release the brakes and its pretty much not a problem whatsoever. 700's are power monsters BUT and a very big BUT brings me to other issues. They are power restricted so it would certainly be interesting to see what actually would happen if it made the attempt. Again, a problem with the design is that you would need additional outside help. Causing, a huge delay. As already happened. Another issue is the operational restrictions. 8 car on half power will need a 'clear run' and be required to take full power. I peak at 30 (PSR restriction) but its not got much over that up that gradient. I almost didn't make it once (in a 319)

Because of the increasing need for this designed-in capability, I suspect that any new EMU (6 cars +) intended to run as single units will be so equipped so that will become the established meaning of 'half sets'.

Returning to my first point. I don't really understand where the OP is coming from. A 465 Networker (Metcam) is effectively 2x 466s. I'm not sure if that would be considered a 'half set' However even with a built in redundancy it cannot act as its own assistance. Neither can a 700.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,396
It seems to be the case that they will be two half trains based on this post. I would anticipate that most trains longer than 5 cars will be formed of 2 half trains, as I understand 5 to be some sort of hard limit on the Train Management System used by Bombardier, presuming that it is much the same between Electrostar and Aventra. The interesting one will be the Moorgate Desiro Cities - I would anticipate them also being formed of 2 3 car halves, but they could well be a single unit.
The Bombardier TMS limit was there because the real limit is the traction power cabling size (cable diameter) hence no point in the software & hardware being over spec'd beyond the traction current limit.
The Aventra and Desiro City are indeed half units and both have interesting ways to handle the increased traction power distribution requirements within each half unit compared to the older generation of stock. The Bombardier solution is slightly more intelligent and uses less copper...
The 6 car Desiro City half units are very close to the limits on maximum under car transformer size and both Desiro City and Aventra have new transformer designs as the existing ABB Secheron designs used by everyone for the last generation of EMUs not being large enough (Siemens going in house - it is worth noting that converting an 8 car 700 to a 12car would require 2 new transformers and Bombardier going to JST for the Aventras).
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top