Plusbus ticket not accepted

pdeaves · 27 Dec 2017

I had a funny situation with Plusbus. The diagram showing the area covered showed two towns and the bit in between. However, the ONLY bus operator linking the towns (and, I think, running the majority of services in the further town) was not part of the scheme.

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ashworth · 27 Dec 2017

I’ve never bothered with Plusbus tickets until this last year since I have had my Senior Railcard. I find them great value, especially in the large Urban areas with the Railcard discount. I’m in that increasingly large group in the 60+ age group who are retired and on a work pension but will not get my state pension and bus pass, if they are still going, until I am 66. However, I also had not realised that Plusbus is not automatically valid on all buses within an area.

paddington · 27 Dec 2017

I also did not know that Plusbus is not automatically valid on all buses within an area, but I would always try to check whether it is valid on the buses I intend to take during the planning stage. If anything, I at least want to get an idea of whether I will need a selection of coins if the operator doesn't reveal its fares online...

TUC · 27 Dec 2017

Details of which bus operstors accept Plusbus tickets are clearly stated on the relevant webpage for each area. See for example:
http://www.plusbus.info/manch-stns
http://www.plusbus.info/nottingham
http://www.plusbus.info/middlesbrough

darloscott · 27 Dec 2017

I'm glad to see they've updated the Teesside page to include acceptance by Stagecarriage. We joined about a year ago as it doesn't cost us anything (apart from maybe a single fare lost!) to carry them, and could gain us passengers from the two bigger operators to use our service and potentially market it to them for future travel. The revenue we gain from the scheme isn't a lot but the profits from the scheme is shared between the local operators based on percentage of mileage operated and is administered by the large operator in the region, presumably on behalf of the rail operators.

dave87016 · 27 Dec 2017

Plus bus tickets for Blackpool are also valid on the trams between Starr Gate and Cleveleys ( not available on the old heritage trams ) and Edinburgh plus bus tickets are also valid On the trams though not to Edinburgh Airport

Deafdoggie · 28 Dec 2017

dave87016 said:
Plus bus tickets for Blackpool are also valid on the trams between Starr Gate and Cleveleys ( not available on the old heritage trams ) and Edinburgh plus bus tickets are also valid On the trams though not to Edinburgh Airport

It is valid on trams in all towns/cities with trams (in the given area) with the sole exception of Manchester

Deafdoggie · 28 Dec 2017

darloscott said:
I'm glad to see they've updated the Teesside page to include acceptance by Stagecarriage. We joined about a year ago as it doesn't cost us anything (apart from maybe a single fare lost!) to carry them, and could gain us passengers from the two bigger operators to use our service and potentially market it to them for future travel. The revenue we gain from the scheme isn't a lot but the profits from the scheme is shared between the local operators based on percentage of mileage operated and is administered by the large operator in the region, presumably on behalf of the rail operators.

It isn't a rail product. I believe the rail companies only get the sales commission for it. It isn't an expensive product, but rail companies do't get much money from it, bus companies don't get much money from it, I don't really know how it survives, I don't have the sales figures, but given the number of bus drivers who have never seen one even if you board the bus right outside a station, I don't think that many are sold.

jon0844 · 28 Dec 2017

I can't see how bus companies get paid when a lot of drivers just let you on but don't press anything on the ticket machine (probably not knowing what to press).

And a big flaw in plusbus is if you wanted it at your origin station to use a bus before the train. You can't get it from the driver, so would have to get the ticket in advance. And you can't pay the driver for it, so would end up paying the normal fare - making plusbus pointless.

I did have an annual plusbus season that did work out very good value, but in all the time of showing it the drivers never recorded my use!

paul1609 · 28 Dec 2017

I think the money paid for plusbus gets divided amongst the bus operators on a mileage basis and their attitude at least down here in Kent is that its just an additional income. Apparently the Rye plusbus tickets are 99% used by people from London travelling to Pontins at Camber Sands. They are outside of their comfort zone once outside of the M25 and if they didn't have a through ticket would most likely get a taxi at Rye Station but if they have been sold a through ticket to Camber (plusbus) will wait for the bus so it probably is genuine extra income for the bus companies.

Dai Corner · 28 Dec 2017

jon0844 said:

I can't see how bus companies get paid when a lot of drivers just let you on but don't press anything on the ticket machine (probably not knowing what to press).

Click to expand...

Darloscott explains how the bus operators get paid.

darloscott said:
I'm glad to see they've updated the Teesside page to include acceptance by Stagecarriage. We joined about a year ago as it doesn't cost us anything (apart from maybe a single fare lost!) to carry them, and could gain us passengers from the two bigger operators to use our service and potentially market it to them for future travel. The revenue we gain from the scheme isn't a lot but the profits from the scheme is shared between the local operators based on percentage of mileage operated and is administered by the large operator in the region, presumably on behalf of the rail operators.

jon0844 · 29 Dec 2017

That's fair enough then, but at the same time they have absolutely no way of determining how many people are using them which must surely impact on future discussions on whether to accept them or not.

It seems sensible to have a button to press on the machine, if only because it also helps a bus operator count passenger numbers. On subsidised services, a council would want to know all the numbers.

Deafdoggie · 29 Dec 2017

jon0844 said:
That's fair enough then, but at the same time they have absolutely no way of determining how many people are using them which must surely impact on future discussions on whether to accept them or not.

It seems sensible to have a button to press on the machine, if only because it also helps a bus operator count passenger numbers. On subsidised services, a council would want to know all the numbers.

They know how popular (or otherwise) they are by the Plusbus ticket sales

185143 · 30 Dec 2017

I've never noticed anyone else showing them-but I've shown other tickets (such as the GM Wayfarer) and been told that it wasn't valid on the bus as 'it normally says Plusbus on it'... so some drivers are aware of them! Then again, I've been told that 'that's a train ticket' a few times, and been told 'that's not valid as it's cheaper than our day ticket' in the past when using Plusbus. And this is just from one division of a certain large bus company-the one that runs purple buses-as well as 185s and 350s on it's Rail operations in the same city...

I don't use Plusbus nearly as much as I used to at one point, and I'd be lying if I said that arguments over validity weren't at least part of the reason why. The only place I've never had an issue with orange 'rail tickets' on buses is in Merseyside with Saveaways! (Though using one on 'bog roll' stock csn be err... 'interesting'!)

kieron · 30 Dec 2017

paul1609 said:
Our buses have "plusbus accepted here" stickers on them which helps to keep the driver informed!

I can't imagine how that would work here. With Stagecoach (for one) accepting plusbus in Chester but not Shotton or Wrexham (while running buses between all three), you could get something like "I know it says 'plusbus accepted', but it doesn't mean here."

I do find it a bit disappointing that, just looking at Shotton, there is a bus ticket organised by Flintshire council which allows travel for a fixed price on some buses through the town (although these extend well beyond the area plusbus covers, and even beyond the county), there's also plusbus (organised by a bus company), but there's little overlap between the services they cover.

I can't help feeling that plusbus would be a more attractive product if local government organised it everywhere, as I think they do in PTE areas.

PeterC · 30 Dec 2017

Deafdoggie said:
They know how popular (or otherwise) they are by the Plusbus ticket sales

Not for any given route, nor if there are multiple operators which operator is getting the traffic.

Merseysider · 30 Dec 2017

I’ve used Greater Manchester PlusBus tickets about a dozen times and had issues on at least four or five occasions, with Stagecoach each time.

On the other hand, I recently used a Congleton PlusBus to get to Biddulph every working day for three months and never once had an issue with D&G.

Stagecoach buses were the ones with PlusBus stickers on the window! :lol:

Deafdoggie · 31 Dec 2017

I'm not sure why that information would be helpful though? The bus operators get paid based on the ticket sales, not their acceptance on particular routes. So knowing the routes they are used on doesn't tell the bus company any fare information at all

jon0844 · 31 Dec 2017

PeterC said:
Not for any given route, nor if there are multiple operators which operator is getting the traffic.

When HCC looked to make cuts, it obviously looked for passenger data to justify cuts.. One route was marked down as having low patronage, yet at least one bus had a missing ticket machine and everyone got free travel. I am sure they were all very happy to not have to pay, but it can't have been good. I have no idea how the bus operator presented data, perhaps just making up a figure or working out an average? Either way, hardly good.

People who can't or won't scan their bus pass are also waved through by many drivers, so they're not counted. Plusbus isn't counted. Surely all of this is pretty bad for the bus user in the long run, which of course also includes the driver(s) that think they're doing passengers a favour.

philthetube · 31 Dec 2017

Living in Watford I calculated that my cheapest way to use the bus for travel to work would be to buy a priv annual from Watford High st. to Junction plus plusbus, as I would have to travel using two different operators. I bought a car, goodbye bus travel, you lost me.

Yes I know tht is not within the rules but?

Olympian · 31 Dec 2017

jon0844 said:
People who can't or won't scan their bus pass are also waved through by many drivers, so they're not counted. Plusbus isn't counted. Surely all of this is pretty bad for the bus user in the long run, which of course also includes the driver(s) that think they're doing passengers a favour.

I agree, and given that every UK concessionary card is an ITSO smartcard the rules of each concessionary scheme should mandate that reimbursement payments to operators are only made for cards that are scanned electronically so they lose out if drivers "wave them through" without good reason or the operator won't invest in ITSO capable ticket machines or doesn't keep them updated to read all cards. Plusbus is also moving to ITSO, and is already available on smartcard in some locations, so that should also improve the availability of usage statistics.

jon0844 · 31 Dec 2017

That's good to hear. I would also like to see a way to get the bus TO the station somehow covered when you currently need to get your ticket at the station, and therefore probably had to pay for the bus journey.

A smartcard could allow that. Buy a ticket on your phone then download it when you tap on the bus. Should be no problem as more buses are connected, and also helps with determining how to split the revenue up. That might just make plusbus an easier sell.

Dai Corner · 31 Dec 2017

jon0844 said:
That's good to hear. I would also like to see a way to get the bus TO the station somehow covered when you currently need to get your ticket at the station, and therefore probably had to pay for the bus journey.

A smartcard could allow that. Buy a ticket on your phone then download it when you tap on the bus. Should be no problem as more buses are connected, and also helps with determining how to split the revenue up. That might just make plusbus an easier sell.

I suppose they could allow passengers to 'part exchange' their bus ticket for its face value when buying a Plusbus at the railway station? That might involve a lot of clerical work though.

Deerfold · 31 Dec 2017

philthetube said:
Living in Watford I calculated that my cheapest way to use the bus for travel to work would be to buy a priv annual from Watford High st. to Junction plus plusbus, as I would have to travel using two different operators. I bought a car, goodbye bus travel, you lost me.

Yes I know tht is not within the rules but?

They're aimed to make through travel easier, not undercut the local travel tickets. Unfortunately not all operators in Hertfordshire take part in the Intalink tickets.

I used to have an annual Hitchin Plusbus, when the 301 ran through to Hitchin station. I used to have an argument about twice a week about validity, usually with the same Arriva driver, sometimes even when in the Plusbus-liveried vehicle they had. Mind you, I had as much trouble when I changed it for an Arriva-only ticket.

Transdev Keighley seem to know about it - I don't think I've ever had on queried, even when using a Leeds one in Keighley and a Keighley one in Hebden Bridge.

Deafdoggie · 2 Jan 2018

Olympian said:
I agree, and given that every UK concessionary card is an ITSO smartcard the rules of each concessionary scheme should mandate that reimbursement payments to operators are only made for cards that are scanned electronically so they lose out if drivers "wave them through" without good reason or the operator won't invest in ITSO capable ticket machines or doesn't keep them updated to read all cards. Plusbus is also moving to ITSO, and is already available on smartcard in some locations, so that should also improve the availability of usage statistics.

Given the very small number of ITSO rail tickets, ITSO plusbus in any great quantity is a very long way off.

The way ENCTS revenue is shared out is very, very complex, but is enshrined in law, so any change would require a change is law. However, any unrecorded journey does not get the operator any revenue. It can be recorded manually by the driver or electronically by the ITSO reader. The only advantage an ITSO reader has, is that it knows the issuing authority, this is of no use to the bus company, so they can't justify investment into ITSO for that alone. It is also very complex to programme into ticket machines, and therefore programming is usually done by the local authority, who get all the details of all other local authority ENCTS. However, sometimes an authority will change the chips in theirs with no time for other authorities to update the programme. Therefore the machine will not recognise the ENCTS pass, and the driver waves them through.

Plusbus ticket not accepted

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