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Northern timetable plan for May 2018

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Loop & Link

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Hopefully (for now) some services missing on Lime St City Line especially at peak times likes of stations Huyton-Lime Street lose out, hopefully they are just missing and not permanently removed to accommodate TPE.

Broad Green goes from 6 trains between (08:00 and 09:00) now to 4/5 with large gaps in between.
 
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IanXC

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Hope the Calder Valley timetable is incorrect, there's quite an imbalance in the Leeds direction with 3 trains departing Bradford within 14 minutes then nothing for 30 minutes

Hmm

Bradford seems to look something like this:

xx03 Chester
xx13 Blackpool North
xx15 York
xx24 Leeds
xx30 Leeds
xx32 Huddersfield
xx41 Manchester Airport
xx59 Leeds

So the service in the Leeds direction is xx15 xx24 xx30 xx59.

One would hope that the Nottingham ends up being at around xx45.
 

Mollman

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Hmm

Bradford seems to look something like this:

xx03 Chester
xx13 Blackpool North
xx15 York
xx24 Leeds
xx30 Leeds
xx32 Huddersfield
xx41 Manchester Airport
xx59 Leeds

So the service in the Leeds direction is xx15 xx24 xx30 xx59.

One would hope that the Nottingham ends up being at around xx45.

Is the Nottingham service the one that will interwork with the extra Manchester service?
 

Starmill

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The service from Mauldeth Road is absolutely awful according to the times as available at present. Moving from 29 and 31 minute gaps to 20 and 40 minutes :o as there's no corresponding improvement that's absolutely awful. I also frequently travel Mauldeth Road to East Didsbury and that's cut from half hourly to hourly. I'm exceptionally disappointed and I'm pretty shocked that randomly cutting our service with no quid pro quo and no consultation is considered acceptable.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The Chester-Leeds is quite well timed west of Manchester, at 24 from Chester and 07 from Victoria.
Intermediate stops are Warrington, Earlestown and Newton le Willows.
As on the ATW service, I can't see why Earlestown deserves all trains to stop (as well as NLW only 1 mile away).
I'd have thought Runcorn East would be a busier stop.
As the ATW Manchester services seem to stay the same, there is a 32m gap eastbound, but only 10m westbound by the time the Leeds has reached Chester.
In each direction there are rather poor onward connections to/from the coast.
The 1707 from Victoria goes to Ellesmere Port (1808) calling additionally at Frodsham then all stops.
There doesn't appear to be a morning departure from Ellesmere Port, but there is a service from Liverpool (via Warrington), which then does a local shuttle to Helsby.
 

Mathew S

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Does anyone know what the planned services Wigan - Manchester have come out looking like?
 

lejog

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The service from Mauldeth Road is absolutely awful according to the times as available at present. Moving from 29 and 31 minute gaps to 20 and 40 minutes :o as there's no corresponding improvement that's absolutely awful. I also frequently travel Mauldeth Road to East Didsbury and that's cut from half hourly to hourly. I'm exceptionally disappointed and I'm pretty shocked that randomly cutting our service with no quid pro quo and no consultation is considered acceptable.

Yes the Northern/ATW stopping services from Manchester Airport are also all bunched together:

x.26 Leeds (calling at Burnage)
x.29 Barrow (calling at Heald Green and East Didsbury)
x.35 Llandudno (calling at East Didsbury)
x.41 Blackpool North (calling at Heald Green, Gatley and Mauldeth Rd)
x.50 CLC (calling at East Didsbury)
x.58 Chat Moss (calling at Heald Green, Gatley, East Didsbury, Burnage and Mauldeth Rd)
 

pemma

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Does anyone know what the planned services Wigan - Manchester have come out looking like?

Standard hourly pattern from Wallgate:
Southport-Leeds via Atherton, Victoria and Dewsbury
Kirkby-Victoria via Atherton
Wallgate-Victoria via Atherton
Southport-Blackburn via Atherton and Victoria

From North Western:
Barrow/Windermere to Manchester Airport via Chat Moss
North Western to Stalybridge via Bolton and Victoria
North Western to Alderley Edge via Bolton and Piccadilly

Total 7tph between the two stations - 5tph to Victoria and 2tph to Oxford Road and Piccadilly.
 
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The Chester-Leeds is quite well timed west of Manchester, at 24 from Chester and 07 from Victoria.
Intermediate stops are Warrington, Earlestown and Newton le Willows.
As on the ATW service, I can't see why Earlestown deserves all trains to stop (as well as NLW only 1 mile away).
I'd have thought Runcorn East would be a busier stop.
As the ATW Manchester services seem to stay the same, there is a 32m gap eastbound, but only 10m westbound by the time the Leeds has reached Chester.
In each direction there are rather poor onward connections to/from the coast.
The 1707 from Victoria goes to Ellesmere Port (1808) calling additionally at Frodsham then all stops.
There doesn't appear to be a morning departure from Ellesmere Port, but there is a service from Liverpool (via Warrington), which then does a local shuttle to Helsby.

Selfishly I am interested in Helsby to Victoria for commuting. Looks like I will have 2 trains to get me home at approx 1600 to Chester and 1700 ish to Ellesmere Port but only one that would get me to Victoria at approx 0930. I hope that the shuttle you mention becomes something a bit more significant.
Edit
Just spotted the early 0626 service to Victoria.
 
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Mathew S

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Standard hourly pattern from Wallgate:
Southport-Leeds via Atherton, Victoria and Dewsbury
Kirkby-Victoria via Atherton
Wallgate-Victoria via Atherton
Southport-Blackburn via Atherton and Victoria

From North Western:
Barrow/Windermere to Manchester Airport via Chat Moss
North Western to Stalybridge via Bolton and Victoria
North Western to Alderley Edge via Bolton and Piccadilly

Total 7tph between the two stations - 5tph to Victoria and 2tph to Oxford Road and Piccadilly.
Thanks, that's superb.
 

pemma

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Selfishly I am interested in Helsby to Victoria for commuting. Looks like I will have 2 trains to get me home at approx 1600 to Chester and 1700 ish to Ellesmere Port but only one that would get me to Victoria at approx 0930. I hope that the shuttle you mention becomes something a bit more significant.
Edit
Just spotted the early 0626 service to Victoria.

There seems to be no 07:4x to Victoria shown at Bank Quay and there seems to be a Northern unit going to Ellesmere Port and then not doing anything (not even doing an ECS), so I'd suggest there's a morning service yet to be added.
 
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There seems to be no 07:4x to Victoria shown at Bank Quay and there seems to be a Northern unit going to Ellesmere Port and then not doing anything (not even doing an ECS), so I'd suggest there's a morning service yet to be added.
Now that would be perfect .... I know it is only 2 trains a day each way but that is all commuters from a small village need.
 

northernchris

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Hmm

Bradford seems to look something like this:

xx03 Chester
xx13 Blackpool North
xx15 York
xx24 Leeds
xx30 Leeds
xx32 Huddersfield
xx41 Manchester Airport
xx59 Leeds

So the service in the Leeds direction is xx15 xx24 xx30 xx59.

One would hope that the Nottingham ends up being at around xx45.

When is the Nottingham due to be added? It's a shame Northern aren't able to run a Leeds-Bradford shuttle in the meantime to fill in the gap
 

Spartacus

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I was told Northern had loads of paths rejected, so I guess they're still a work in progress.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Again, treat with extreme caution - they’re not finalised at this stage as per post above. People here have made all sorts of assumptions in previous years, only to find that they are wrong when the actual final timetables have appeared.

Indeed, but these timetable don't just appear out of thin air. One assumes that the TOCs write them and provide them to Network Rail who then validate them and at a certain stage in proceedings will publish them in their data which appears in places such as TRUST and Open Train Times. They give - or at least should do - an indication of what the TOCs are currently planning to do. Obviously some things may be tweeked or changed if certain infrastructure isn't ready or rolling stock available. But when TOC managers currently deny to their staff that any sort of vague plan for May even exists then they are quire obviously telling porkies.

On a related note there could well be some very interesting crew diagrams with all these changes and it would strike me that TOCs involved with these changes - if they all happen as shown - might need to get on with some route learning or consultation with local level reps. I am not aware, for example, of any Northern traincrew that sign the whole route between Hull and Leeds - Northern are shown as running 2K23 a 2230 stopping service from Hull to Leeds. Do Northern have any or enough traincrew that sign from Manchester Victoria to Chester via Warrington?

Both TPE and Northern have a good number of additional trains, especially on Sundays, and have earlier starts and later finishes on many routes on all days of the week, often with increased frequencies at the extremities of the day. Simply - are there enough traincrew to run all these trains??
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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There seems to be no 07:4x to Victoria shown at Bank Quay and there seems to be a Northern unit going to Ellesmere Port and then not doing anything (not even doing an ECS), so I'd suggest there's a morning service yet to be added.

The Victoria-Chester peak services call all stations west of Newton le Willows, plus the odd one at Eccles.
Westbound runs quite late but the last eastbound is the 2020 from Chester.
The early start/late finish at Chester suggests a crew base there.
I think the Northwich route services run later at Chester to accommodate the Leeds services.
No sign of Halton Curve services - maybe that will be December 2018.
 
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The Victoria-Chester peak services call all stations west of Newton le Willows, plus the odd one at Eccles.
Westbound runs quite late but the last eastbound is the 2020 from Chester.
I think the Northwich route services run later at Chester to accommodate the Leeds services.
No sign of Halton Curve services - maybe that will be December 2018.
Halton Curve is not due for completion until June or July with first services planned for December.
 

berneyarms

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Indeed, but these timetable don't just appear out of thin air. One assumes that the TOCs write them and provide them to Network Rail who then validate them and at a certain stage in proceedings will publish them in their data which appears in places such as TRUST and Open Train Times. They give - or at least should do - an indication of what the TOCs are currently planning to do. Obviously some things may be tweeked or changed if certain infrastructure isn't ready or rolling stock available. But when TOC managers currently deny to their staff that any sort of vague plan for May even exists then they are quire obviously telling porkies.

They are still very much at risk of being incomplete or draft until the 12 week deadline before the timetable change date. That’s the usual cut-off date.

Even then there can be instances of missing trains or late changes until the final pdf timetables are published.

The problem is people are discussing things here as if they’re the final product and quite frankly they’d be better off waiting until the timetables are uploaded in full.

Personally I think platforms like OTT really should suspend the ability to look into new timetable periods until the full timetables are uploaded and confirmed.
 

Mathew S

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They are still very much at risk of being incomplete or draft until the 12 week deadline before the timetable change date. That’s the usual cut-off date.

Even then there can be instances of missing trains or late changes until the final pdf timetables are published.

The problem is people are discussing things here as if they’re the final product and quite frankly they’d be better off waiting until the timetables are uploaded in full.

Personally I think platforms like OTT really should suspend the ability to look into new timetable periods until the full timetables are uploaded and confirmed.
Not an unreasonable point, but on looking this afternoon it's not only platforms such as OTT which look into the next timetable period. The new timetable of journeys Wigan-Manchester at least is already available for booking as a valid itinerary through the VTWC website, and therefore presumably some others as well. If the services aren't confirmed, then I think they have to not show anywhere at all; if they're showing in a TOC journey planner and you can by tickets against them then passengers can be forgiven for imagining that they represent a confirmed timetable.
 

markydh

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I can see some very unhappy customers on the Newcastle to Hexham leg. The Carlisle fasts leave Newcastle at xx05 with the slows at xx15 to xx23. This means that local services will no longer be half-hourly from Newcastle with 45 to 50 minute gaps.
 

SeanM1997

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On OpenTrainTimes the Crewe-Man Airport-Man Piccadilly-Liverpool LS service is only listed as two-hourly. Is this correct or will it be hourly from May?
 

stu99

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I can see some very unhappy customers on the Newcastle to Hexham leg. The Carlisle fasts leave Newcastle at xx05 with the slows at xx15 to xx23. This means that local services will no longer be half-hourly from Newcastle with 45 to 50 minute gaps.
Seems odd, they are subject to change though, but this timetable change will depend of whether Manchester to Preston gets electrified in time I think.
 

driver_m

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The Chester-Leeds is quite well timed west of Manchester, at 24 from Chester and 07 from Victoria.
Intermediate stops are Warrington, Earlestown and Newton le Willows.
As on the ATW service, I can't see why Earlestown deserves all trains to stop (as well as NLW only 1 mile away).
I'd have thought Runcorn East would be a busier stop.
As the ATW Manchester services seem to stay the same, there is a 32m gap eastbound, but only 10m westbound by the time the Leeds has reached Chester.
In each direction there are rather poor onward connections to/from the coast.
The 1707 from Victoria goes to Ellesmere Port (1808) calling additionally at Frodsham then all stops.
There doesn't appear to be a morning departure from Ellesmere Port, but there is a service from Liverpool (via Warrington), which then does a local shuttle to Helsby.


The obvious answer to the Earlestown stop is to its west. St Helens. Much easier to access Earlestown by car or bus than NLW. Also helps provide competition for the toll on Runcorn bridge now seeing as it has added £4 a day to commuters going over that bridge.
 

lejog

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They are still very much at risk of being incomplete or draft until the 12 week deadline before the timetable change date. That’s the usual cut-off date.

Even then there can be instances of missing trains or late changes until the final pdf timetables are published.

The problem is people are discussing things here as if they’re the final product and quite frankly they’d be better off waiting until the timetables are uploaded in full.

Personally I think platforms like OTT really should suspend the ability to look into new timetable periods until the full timetables are uploaded and confirmed.

We've had 26 pages of discussion on the consultation timetable, the track access consultation and now the timetable posted into OTT, which would be zero if everyone waited until the final timetable was published. There have I think been enough posts saying that the OTT timetable is subject to change and certainly anyone using OTT gets a large warning message in red to that effect. I'm not sure that every post needs a subject to change clause, it would just be rather repetitive.

But does anyone know the official status of the timetable? The track access consultation stated that it was expected that Network Rail's Sale of Access Rights panel would agree Northern's application at its December meeting, did this happen? If so, am I right that the matter has still to be approved by the ORR, subject to the results of the consultation?.
 

Philip

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The service from Mauldeth Road is absolutely awful according to the times as available at present. Moving from 29 and 31 minute gaps to 20 and 40 minutes :o as there's no corresponding improvement that's absolutely awful. I also frequently travel Mauldeth Road to East Didsbury and that's cut from half hourly to hourly. I'm exceptionally disappointed and I'm pretty shocked that randomly cutting our service with no quid pro quo and no consultation is considered acceptable.

Whatever Northern/DfT try and do to improve things, they still can't win with some people!

Do you think Northern wanted Mauldeth Road to go from even gaps between trains to an unbalanced situation? Likewise with Bradford. Be thankful you still have two trains per hour as some areas nearby will still be on an hourly frequency or worse. The plans for this timetable will have been researched and drawn up over a lengthy period with much thought and hard work, with factors such as pathing constraints; interval frequency; popular journeys between stations; footfall figures at different times of the day and week for each station all having to be balanced as well as possible.
 

Starmill

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Whatever Northern/DfT try and do to improve things, they still can't win with some people!
I agree. Some people think that pointless links between stations relatively few people will ever use, or serving small villages is important. Unfortunately sometimes the DfT listens to those people.

I think that by far the most important thing is to ensure that densely populated urban areas are served. Such as Mauldeth Road and the other intermediate stations between Manchester and Manchester Airport. What is the most important thing? Services to city centres and major hubs, such as Manchester Piccadilly.

Is a direct service between small towns and villages in Yorkshire and Cumbria and Manchester Airport more important than these things? No...

If those links can be provided, great. But not at the cost of ruining local services between densely populated urban areas and nearby centres of employment or major hubs for interchange.

Be thankful you still have two trains per hour
Why? East Didsbury will have 4 services per hour despite far slower growth and lower overall figures than Mauldeth Road. There clearly was capacity for extra services but Mauldeth Road has worse services as a result.

The plans for this timetable will have been researched and drawn up over a lengthy period with much thought and hard work

I don't dispute it. But they clearly didn't work as hard on this as GTR, SWR and SE are as they have run major public consultations. Northern and TransPennine haven't.

pathing constraints; interval frequency; popular journeys between stations; footfall figures at different times of the day and week for each station all having to be balanced as well as possible.
As for pathing constraints we are only asking for 2 out of 10 services to be at half-hourly intervals. This ought not be so difficult. If it is then some trains could skip-stop but in clustered fasion i.e. one train calls at Mauldeth Road, Burnage and East Didsbury, then 10 minutes later a train calls at Gatley and Heald Green. This is more use than the proposal, which involves things like a train calling at just one intermediate station and nowhere else, or calling at 3 but not sequential ones. Footfall figures would support Mauldeth Road having additional trains calling which would help to negate the downside of unbalanced service, but instead additional trains are calling at the less well used stations on the route.
 

Philip

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East Didsbury has the big cinema complex across the road and the links to the tram, I'd have thought both of these factors were probably reasons for providing a more frequent service there. Another thing is that with Mauldeth Road being within walking distance of Burnage Station they may deem the two stations as alternatives to each other, negating the need for more services at either station individually. Thirdly, the main road into town runs alongside the railway almost up to Slade Lane, so these areas are already well served by buses heading into the city centre.
 
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