Arriva Rail North DOO

Tetchytyke · 10 Jan 2018

Dave1987 said:
I don't believe any of the TOCs involved in any of the current disputes can talk and negotiate with staff and the unions in good faith because they are hamstrung by the Government. I honesty believe we would have good resolutions to all these disputes if it wasn't for the fact the Government has an agenda against the unions.

I'm less convinced. The NAO just let the cat out of the bag: GoVia promised more DOO than the Government wanted, in order to cut costs to obtain the franchise.

The likes of Wilkinson are clearly slimy, odious and untruthful, but they're fully supported in it by the fat cats and the foreign train companies milking the British cash cow to subsidise their own countries.

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Dave1987 · 10 Jan 2018

Robertj21a said:
No idea. How am I supposed to know their total household income, outgoings, housing costs in their area etc?. Since when did the ability to buy your own house become a part of an employer's responsibilties ?
Good workers can find jobs, that's the key issue.

See you really really don’t get it! No wonder wages are stagnant in the economy. This is going wildly off topic. People are being forced into insecure poorly paid work. “Good workers” are now threatened with disciplinary action if they are ill. The economy needs good secure jobs and not rubbish low paid insecure jobs. The current Governments attitude is as long as you are in some kind of work and not on benefits they are happy. It may be extremely poorly paid but they don’t care as you aren’t on their statistics as being unemployed.

And to think the Government is bewildered as to why wages aren’t keeping up with inflation. They don’t have a clue about the ordinary man/woman, or simply don’t care.

Moonshot · 10 Jan 2018

Dave1987 said:
See you really really don’t get it! No wonder wages are stagnant in the economy. This is going wildly off topic. People are being forced into insecure poorly paid work. “Good workers” are now threatened with disciplinary action if they are ill. The economy needs good secure jobs and not rubbish low paid insecure jobs. The current Governments attitude is as long as you are in some kind of work and not on benefits they are happy. It may be extremely poorly paid but they don’t care as you aren’t on their statistics as being unemployed.

And to think the Government is bewildered as to why wages aren’t keeping up with inflation. They don’t have a clue about the ordinary man/woman, or simply don’t care.

So to get this back on topic, I note that Northern now employ 900 more staff than they did 5 years ago. Oddly enough I joined 5 years ago from a job which wasnt the best paid, and I now clock up around £34k a year

Carlisle · 10 Jan 2018

Moonshot said:
So to get this back on topic, I note that Northern now employ 900 more staff than they did 5 years ago. Oddly enough I joined 5 years ago from a job which wasnt the best paid, and I now clock up around £34k a year

Yes, a pleasant thought however if repealed across the entire UK wouldn’t we simply end up paying Norwegian prices for a humble pint.

Moonshot · 10 Jan 2018

Carlisle said:
Yes, a pleasant thought however if repealed across the entire UK wouldn’t we simply end up paying Norwegian prices for a humble pint.

Oh yes, all those staff working in Wetherspoons who attract a wage like mine would no doubt have punters complaining about a £10 pint. Oddly enough, one of our new train drivers came from Wetherspoons as a barmaid on her last job

HowardGWR · 10 Jan 2018

Arctic Troll said:
I'm less convinced. The NAO just let the cat out of the bag: GoVia promised more DOO than the Government wanted, in order to cut costs to obtain the franchise.

The likes of Wilkinson are clearly slimy, odious and untruthful, but they're fully supported in it by the fat cats and the foreign train companies milking the British cash cow to subsidise their own countries.

My bold. Are you sure you aren't Mick Cash? I claim my...... etc, if so.

alastair · 10 Jan 2018

HowardGWR said:
My bold. Are you sure you aren't Mick Cash? I claim my...... etc, if so.

No, but he might be that elusive RMT personage who writes those laughably dreadful so-called "press releases", that read like a Private Eye magazine parody!

Robertj21a · 10 Jan 2018

Dave1987 said:
See you really really don’t get it! No wonder wages are stagnant in the economy. This is going wildly off topic. People are being forced into insecure poorly paid work. “Good workers” are now threatened with disciplinary action if they are ill. The economy needs good secure jobs and not rubbish low paid insecue jobs. The current Governments attitude is as long as you are in some kind of work and not on benefits they are happy. It may be extremely poorly paid but they don’t care as you aren’t on their statistics as being unemployed.

And to think the Government is bewildered as to why wages aren’t keeping up with inflation. They don’t have a clue about the ordinary man/woman, or simply don’t care.

We're so far off-topic that we will have to bring this interesting debate to a close. If you want to rant about the economy, the government, unemployment levels etc then you can always start an appropriate thread under a different heading.

pt_mad · 10 Jan 2018

Robertj21a said:
No idea. How am I supposed to know their total household income, outgoings, housing costs in their area etc?. Since when did the ability to buy your own house become a part of an employer's responsibilties ?
Good workers can find jobs, that's the key issue.

I would have thought that employers settings the wage at a rate in which the worker can afford to live a basic life would be part of an employer's responsibilities.

Otherwise why would someone employers pay London allowance?

Or, it could just be considered 'not their problem' and the tax credit system can continue to top up poor wages so poor working people can afford to live.

12guard4 · 10 Jan 2018

Dave1987 said:
See you really really don’t get it! No wonder wages are stagnant in the economy. This is going wildly off topic. People are being forced into insecure poorly paid work. “Good workers” are now threatened with disciplinary action if they are ill. The economy needs good secure jobs and not rubbish low paid insecure jobs. The current Governments attitude is as long as you are in some kind of work and not on benefits they are happy. It may be extremely poorly paid but they don’t care as you aren’t on their statistics as being unemployed.

And to think the Government is bewildered as to why wages aren’t keeping up with inflation. They don’t have a clue about the ordinary man/woman, or simply don’t care.

This is bang on. Hits the nail with so many issues in this country not just in the rail industry.

Carlisle · 10 Jan 2018

12guard4 said:
This is bang on. Hits the nail with so many issues in this country not just in the rail industry.

Is it? not sure union power alone can solve the UKs wage inequalities, even if it has worked extremely well in recent times for some types of rail staff, If large scale change is deemed necessary it’ll need to come from the politicians

Dave1987 · 10 Jan 2018

Robertj21a said:
We're so far off-topic that we will have to bring this interesting debate to a close. If you want to rant about the economy, the government, unemployment levels etc then you can always start an appropriate thread under a different heading.

Haha so you have no answer to my perfectly reasonable argument so you call it a “rant”. But you are correct this is not the correct thread. Until your beloved Government realises they are killing off decent jobs in the middle and lower classes and replacing them with low paid insecure work then the rise of “Corbynism” is likely to continue. I think the Tory party numbers are that embarrassing they refused to release them didn’t they?

Robertj21a · 10 Jan 2018

Dave1987 said:
Haha so you have no answer to my perfectly reasonable argument so you call it a “rant”. But you are correct this is not the correct thread. Until your beloved Government realises they are killing off decent jobs in the middle and lower classes and replacing them with low paid insecure work then the rise of “Corbynism” is likely to continue. I think the Tory party numbers are that embarrassing they refused to release them didn’t they?

You may consider it a reasonable argument. I don't and feel that you are biased, naive and lacking in knowledge. I also suggested it was way off topic and that you should use a more appropriate thread if you wanted to continue - I see you can't understand that either.

Robertj21a · 10 Jan 2018

pt_mad said:
I would have thought that employers settings the wage at a rate in which the worker can afford to live a basic life would be part of an employer's responsibilities.

Otherwise why would someone employers pay London allowance?

Or, it could just be considered 'not their problem' and the tax credit system can continue to top up poor wages so poor working people can afford to live.

You're another one way off topic really but you've also changed the whole wording. The earlier comments that I was responding to related to buying a house.

theblackwatch · 10 Jan 2018

Please can this thread be used for the discussion of Arriva DOO, not discussion of the economy etc - please start another thread in General Discussion if you want that. Any further off-topic posts will be deleted or could result in this thread being closed. Thanks!

AngelicUpstart · 11 Jan 2018

One really stupid thing that this strike has brought about is the RRB buses to and from Blackpool. Yes, they are running to a strike timetable too! So there is no South service after 7pm and only an hourly all-stations from Preston to North and nothing back to Preston after 7pm. Blackpool Transport, and their drivers, must be quite enjoying doing nothing but being paid.

pt_mad · 11 Jan 2018

In a way the economy related posts were related to Northern DOO, as it relates to the impact that any redundancies or degrading of job roles would have on the lives of the workers. And how a trend of DOO rollout could affect workers and working conditions in general.

It is being debated whether DOO is justified. And it is relevant with regard to the impact that a run of redundancies or degrading of guards to customer assistants could have with the economical situation at present.

Bletchleyite · 11 Jan 2018

AngelicUpstart said:
One really stupid thing that this strike has brought about is the RRB buses to and from Blackpool. Yes, they are running to a strike timetable too! So there is no South service after 7pm and only an hourly all-stations from Preston to North and nothing back to Preston after 7pm. Blackpool Transport, and their drivers, must be quite enjoying doing nothing but being paid.

That is inexcusable. Unless I suppose they're using them for some of the other bus services.

Robertj21a · 11 Jan 2018

pt_mad said:
In a way the economy related posts were related to Northern DOO, as it relates to the impact that any redundancies or degrading of job roles would have on the lives of the workers. And how a trend of DOO rollout could affect workers and working conditions in general.

It is being debated whether DOO is justified. And it is relevant with regard to the impact that a run of redundancies or degrading of guards to customer assistants could have with the economical situation at present.

Personally, I thought the earlier post from the Moderator was crystal clear......

pemma · 11 Jan 2018

On the DOO debate John Tilley got to appear on the local news again yesterday. He said he understands the passenger's frustrations but tried to make it sound like the passengers were only in the same position as their members if they lost 3 days pay this week. Not really as Northern can't sack guards for going on an official strike, other people can be sacked for not being able to turn up for work, while passengers didn't vote for strike action. Also most people don't have the option of volunteering to work Sundays to get extra pay if they are short of money.

pemma · 11 Jan 2018

pt_mad said:
And it is relevant with regard to the impact that a run of redundancies or degrading of guards to customer assistants could have with the economical situation at present.

Northern are currently recruiting additional guards and apparently offered the RMT a guarantee that all guards will remain in employment until the end of current franchise (2025) so I agree with the moderator that discussing redundancy in this thread is off-topic.

Allwinter_Kit · 11 Jan 2018

Out of interest, why were Monday, Wednesday and Friday selected? Surely doing 3 days straight would cause greater disruption as trains would be more likely to end up out of position etc?

Of course, I'm assuming disruption was the main aim - on which I might be wrong.

pemma · 11 Jan 2018

Allwinter_Kit said:
Out of interest, why were Monday, Wednesday and Friday selected? Surely doing 3 days straight would cause greater disruption as trains would be more likely to end up out of position etc?

Of course, I'm assuming disruption was the main aim - on which I might be wrong.

Could it possibly relate to shift patterns, so that it meant most guards were down 2 days pay from striking not 3, or to ensure all guards would be down to work for at least one of the 3 strike days (I think guards work 4 day weeks if they don't do overtime)?

AngelicUpstart · 11 Jan 2018

Bletchleyite said:
That is inexcusable. Unless I suppose they're using them for some of the other bus services.

Nope, they have run a couple of additionals and they have doubled up a couple of services from Preston, but mostly it's been back to BTs garage and park up and into the mess room!

Bletchleyite · 11 Jan 2018

AngelicUpstart said:
Nope, they have run a couple of additionals and they have doubled up a couple of services from Preston, but mostly it's been back to BTs garage and park up and into the mess room!

Ludicrous in the extreme. They are timetabled, they are not affected by the strike, so they should operate. I hope Northern are penalised heavily for these non-strike-related cancellations.

OK you can only get as far as Preston, but there is a healthy market for that journey.

Anvil1984 · 11 Jan 2018

jcollins said:
Could it possibly relate to shift patterns, so that it meant most guards were down 2 days pay from striking not 3, or to ensure all guards would be down to work for at least one of the 3 strike days (I think guards work 4 day weeks if they don't do overtime)?

Not at every depot. A number of conductors (including myself) are losing 3 days this week but we might be a minority

the sniper · 11 Jan 2018

jcollins said:
Northern are currently recruiting additional guards and apparently offered the RMT a guarantee that all guards will remain in employment until the end of current franchise (2025) so I agree with the moderator that discussing redundancy in this thread is off-topic.

The bit in bold. You're either being disingenuous or naive. It means nothing. Southern recruited Conductors/Guards too, knowing that they'd have to accept the OBS grade/T&Cs when push came to shove like any other Guard. While trains require Guards to work them, they'll recruit Guards. Once they're in sight of it becoming operationally viable to run without Guards and the new model becomes clear, they'll just recruit them instead.

Most former Guards could be pushed out through 'natural' wastage, so it's possible that paying for redundancies might not be necessary to achieve the end goal.

pemma · 12 Jan 2018

the sniper said:
The bit in bold. You're either being disingenuous or naive. It means nothing. Southern recruited Conductors/Guards too, knowing that they'd have to accept the OBS grade/T&Cs when push came to shove like any other Guard. While trains require Guards to work them, they'll recruit Guards. Once they're in sight of it becoming operationally viable to run without Guards and the new model becomes clear, they'll just recruit them instead.

Most former Guards could be pushed out through 'natural' wastage, so it's possible that paying for redundancies might not be necessary to achieve the end goal.

And? I was agreeing with others that discussing redundancy is off-topic when Northern are currently increasing guard numbers and have offered a guarantee to the RMT that no guards will be made redundant during the course of the franchise and that all guards will remain on their existing pay grade.

Based on what's been posted on the previous pages of this thread there's at least some guards who would prefer a nice big redundancy pay out to becoming an OBS on a guard's salary but, unfortunately for them, it looks like their employment is safe.

Overspeed110 · 12 Jan 2018

jcollins said:
Northern are currently recruiting additional guards and apparently offered the RMT a guarantee that all guards will remain in employment until the end of current franchise (2025) so I agree with the moderator that discussing redundancy in this thread is off-topic.

So, seeing as discussing redundancy is off topic,

Northern (at present, I don't care what the franchise agreement says, but I think it's going to change), is proposing to run an unknown number of services DOO, meaning the only member of staff on board is the driver. These services will not have any other safety critical qualified members of staff on board.

It is the RMT' s position (and most sensible people) for every train to have a fully trained guard on board, and it is also the RMT' s duty to protect the jobs and conditions of its members. Those members voted by 80 odd % for strike action.

And that is where we are. And it ain't going to change until the buffoons in charge of Northern sort it out with the buffoons who are "running" this country.

pemma · 12 Jan 2018

Overspeed110 said:
Northern (at present, I don't care what the franchise agreement says, but I think it's going to change), is proposing to run an unknown number of services DOO, meaning the only member of staff on board is the driver. These services will not have any other safety critical qualified members of staff on board.

If what was said a couple of months ago in the thread is true Northern asked the RMT for it's opinion on which routes would be suitable for DCO and under what circumstances a train to run with just a driver on board, to which the RMT's response was they aren't willing to talk about either of those circumstances. The Southern agreement with ASLEF (for new DOO routes) is that there's a second member of staff on board and under certain circumstances if the second member of staff is unavailable they can run with just a driver on board - staff sickness is an acceptable excuse for not providing the second member of staff but industrial action is not. I imagine Northern will want to go down the same route.

it is also the RMT' s duty to protect the jobs and conditions of its members

Yet they rejected an offer of guaranteed employment for all guards until the end of the franchise with all guards remaining on the guard pay grade.

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