Class 707 - SWT: Introduction into service

707017+707018 are out up and down the Portsmouth Direct today. Just seen at Petersfield on its way back to Guildford

fairysdad said:

My emphasises to highlight a slight contradiction there? As an aside, could a 456+455+455 train have the 456 unit split up, so it would be a half 456+455+455+half 456? (Although, yes, the doors at the end of the two half 456s are passenger doors not non-passenger gangway doors.)

(Also, has the formation ever been 455+456+455?)

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The last I heard 10 car 455/456 formations must have a maximum of three sections (ie: no corridor connection between each, so the driver in one part, guard in another, and the third no member of staff). This did initially cause some concerns, but was eventually agreed to by all concerned. Therefore your latter question about 455/456/456/455 would not be permitted, as far as I'm aware. Operationally I believe your first point about 2+4+4+2 may be acceptable (although I will stand corrected on that, please, if need be?) provided as mentioned earlier, all 10 cars can be accommodated on the relevant platforms.
In the early days of planning the whole programme for 458/5, 456 etc, a couple of considerations were taken in to account:
1) one of the 10 car 455/456 formations would, by the nature of the diagram it worked, be stabled on a Friday night (same as other weekday nights) in one of the newly re-laid North box sidings at Guildford, where it would remain spare until the Monday morning. With the likelihood of weekend engineering works taking place now and again in that area, it was thought that if additional stock was required to start from Guildford on a Saturday or Sunday, it would be more likely to be in the form of 4 or 8 car 455, and so this particular diagram was planned to be formed with the 456 at the London end so it could (if need be) be detached in North box sidings and left spare on the buffers, whilst the 455(s) went off and did what ever over the weekend, and were replaced on a like for like basis, before Monday morning. Any good plan should take account, where possible, of what may be needed for weekend engineering works, which by definition are rarely exactly the same two weekends in a row!
2) as a knock on of point 1, as many of the 10 car 455/456 diagrams rotate day to day, ie: the 10 car on diagram X on day one works diagram Y on day two, then diagram Z on day three etc, it became apparent (and very fortunate) that the vast majority of these formations that finished in the two major London stabling locations (Clapham & Wimbledon Depots) each week night, could stay formed exactly as they arrived (the 2 car at a certain end) and there would (or should...) be no need for the depots to waste time having to reform these ready for the next day. The staff at those locations have enough to deal with, without what might be considered unnecessary shunting work!

TEW said:

455+456+455 not permitted in passenger service on SWR. Can have 456+456, 456+456+456, 455+456, 455+456+456 or 455+455+456.

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Oops, was still typing when you posted!

707019 and 707020 confirmed delivered to Clapham Yard

I still don’t get why 12 car 455s never ran...

D235 Apapa said:

The last I heard 10 car 455/456 formations must have a maximum of three sections (ie: no corridor connection between each, so the driver in one part, guard in another, and the third no member of staff). This did initially cause some concerns, but was eventually agreed to by all concerned. Therefore your latter question about 455/456/456/455 would not be permitted, as far as I'm aware. Operationally I believe your first point about 2+4+4+2 may be acceptable (although I will stand corrected on that, please, if need be?) provided as mentioned earlier, all 10 cars can be accommodated on the relevant platforms.

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However, his suggestion wasn't a 12-car set up. It was a ten car, formed 456DMSO-455-455-456DTSO

jopsuk said:

However, his suggestion wasn't a 12-car set up. It was a ten car, formed 456DMSO-455-455-456DTSO

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Good point, well spotted. Glad someone is awake, unlike me!!!! How much simpler it will all be if SWR get all the suburban running with same type 10 cars everywhere!

Harbouring said:

707017+707018 are out up and down the Portsmouth Direct today. Just seen at Petersfield on its way back to Guildford

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Yep, just seen same returning to Clapham, 5Q14.

jopsuk said:

There's no contradiction- the lack of gangway on the 456 means that at an 8 car platform depending upon the formation the entire 456 could end up not at a platform, whilst with the 707 three carriages would be and so SDO allows passengers to disembark.

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Ah, wasn't thinking of it that way - I was thinking staff access between units. Makes sense now.

jopsuk said:

I'd have thought what you suggest could be made to work, and again due to effectively having 5 car units would work if SDO was included, although I'd bet there would be formations with one or both "456" cabs burried in the centra and the gangway 455 cabs to the exterior. Also half the resulting hybrid five car units would get a DMSO and half would get a DTSO. Could go completely mad and run them as 10 car fixed formation with all the 455 cabs effectively out of use... but there's no need.

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To be honest, it was not a serious suggestion, just one that my idle thoughts on a daily journey on these things brings up now and then! I kind of forget that SWR do still run single 455 units, so a 5-car 455/456 unit would get split up occasionally with no guarantee that it would be joined back up the correct way. I guess it would also essentially 'lock' any passengers into the single 456 coaches at either end of the train unless more modifications were done to the 455s. But yeah, completely pointless speculation and not one for this thread at all!

oh, passengers in the 456 cars wouldn't be trapped- modifying the end gangways on the 455 to work with the inner gangways of the 456 would be one of the most trivial parts of the concept, bascially the same as when it's been done on 150s

TT-ONR-NRN said:

I still don’t get why 12 car 455s never ran...

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Because they don’t fit in the platforms! 455/456 are not fitted with SDO.

Even with platform extensions (including Waterloo) and SDO (where appropriate) the South West divsion metro is only suitable for 200m long trains. Converting to take 240-240m trains would not be economically sensible

jopsuk said:

oh, passengers in the 456 cars wouldn't be trapped- modifying the end gangways on the 455 to work with the inner gangways of the 456 would be one of the most trivial parts of the concept, bascially the same as when it's been done on 150s

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I would have to disagree with the "trivial" above. Whilst I have no detailed knowledge of the 150's, no such modifications are ever that straightforward. At the time the 456's were transferred from Southern to SWT, there was belief in some quarters that they could go to work with SWT 455's from day one. Not so, in fact the modifications required to the couplers and associated electrical (re) work was, I believe, quite a headache for those involved, which had a knock-on complication for service provision whereby the green 456's could not work with either 455's (SWT), or refurbished (red) 456's. There were also updated safety related equipment fitted to the refurbished (red) units (as well as the 455 fleet) as they went through refurbishment, which train crew had to be up to speed with. This is why the green units were in essence treated almost as a sub mini fleet and were restricted to working in pairs (no singletons permitted due to risk of becoming 'gapped') with fellow green units, which is why they finished their days in that guise on the Guildford-Ascot road.

GW43125 said:

Because they don’t fit in the platforms! 455/456 are not fitted with SDO.

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12-car 455s could run in the past, and did on rare occasions, stopping only at long enough platforms of course. I believe during a drivers strike in the past 12-car 455s were used on Woking-Waterloo services, all stations to Surbiton and then fast to Waterloo, all those platforms can fit 12 car trains. 12-car 455s with the new AC traction equipment are not permitted though.

5-car 707 working 1240 London Waterloo-Woking and 1336 return.
10-car 707 working 1310 London Waterloo-Woking and 1406 return.
Repeats every 2 hours all day.

Unusual opportunity to get 707s on the mainline via Weybridge, they don't have any booked passenger work on the route at the moment.

TEW said:

5-car 707 working 1240 London Waterloo-Woking and 1336 return.
10-car 707 working 1310 London Waterloo-Woking and 1406 return.
Repeats every 2 hours all day.

Unusual opportunity to get 707s on the mainline via Weybridge, they don't have any booked passenger work on the route at the moment.

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I saw that at Waterloo, 707013 on the 16:40 Woking & 707025 & 707026 being the pair on the 17:10 Woking service and was just about to ask if that is now booked for Sundays.

Nope. Definitely not booked. Those services usually run to Guildford on Sundays but aren't today due to engineering works.

D235 Apapa said:

I would have to disagree with the "trivial" above. Whilst I have no detailed knowledge of the 150's, no such modifications are ever that straightforward. At the time the 456's were transferred from Southern to SWT, there was belief in some quarters that they could go to work with SWT 455's from day one. Not so, in fact the modifications required to the couplers and associated electrical (re) work was, I believe, quite a headache for those involved, which had a knock-on complication for service provision whereby the green 456's could not work with either 455's (SWT), or refurbished (red) 456's. There were also updated safety related equipment fitted to the refurbished (red) units (as well as the 455 fleet) as they went through refurbishment, which train crew had to be up to speed with. This is why the green units were in essence treated almost as a sub mini fleet and were restricted to working in pairs (no singletons permitted due to risk of becoming 'gapped') with fellow green units, which is why they finished their days in that guise on the Guildford-Ascot road.

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Part of the issue was that the overhaul on the 456s fitted them with PRM compliance including call for aid equipment at the wheelchair positions. The 455s were likewise being fitted during their C62 overhauls at Bournemouth. In theory you couldn't use a PRM compliant set with an unmodified set, so initially at least the 456s ran with modified sets. Mixed operation could (and did) happen if the call for aid equipment was isolated on depot before the sets went out - good thing SWT avoided attach/detach of 455s in service!

The reason units with Call for Aids and those without were allowed to work together eventually was because they modified the PA handsets in the cabs of all units to enable the Call for Aid to be answered, even if the unit itself was not fitted with a Call for Aid yet. It wasn't necessary to isolate the Call for Aid.

TT-ONR-NRN said:

I still don’t get why 12 car 455s never ran...

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There is a frequent ECS working from victoria that is 12 455. But yeh as others have said there really has never been a need for a 12 car passenger working

Hearing the railway jungle drums that a 707 has been grey swr wrapped. Possibly sighted at wimbledon. Though nothing mentioned here says to me no truth to this noise.

2s13 (07:22 Waterloo Weybridge) has gone over to a 707 this morning

I hope no 707s are changed to the dull depressing grey livery! They look awesome in red.

Driver@swt said:

I hope no 707s are changed to the dull depressing grey livery! They look awesome in red.

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As they are being taken off lease when the Aventras arrive, I suspect they will stay red until they go off lease.

Edit Just seen a post above, so the jury is out...

Are they DEFINITELY going off lease? I heard somewhere that the Aventra order may not be enough, given the increase in Windsor and Reading trains from Dec 2018, and that the 707s may be retained.

WWTownEnth said:

Are they DEFINITELY going off lease? I heard somewhere that the Aventra order may not be enough, given the increase in Windsor and Reading trains from Dec 2018, and that the 707s may be retained.

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As the aventras aren't due for delivery until 2019 I'm not sure you can off lease stock before stock is delivered to replace and still keep the same level of service...

Bigfoot said:

As the aventras aren't due for delivery until 2019 I'm not sure you can off lease stock before stock is delivered to replace and still keep the same level of service...

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In short, in this instance, you can't, until such time as enough stock IS available to cover service, plus the associated level of spare units for maintenance etc, and much will also depend on training people on the Aventras, not only train crew, but fitters, depot drivers, not forgetting the 'trainers' themselves, who themselves were under extreme pressure with the 458/456 programme, which originally was planned so that the 456 introduction followed on from the 458 plan. But as most here will know the 458 part was somewhat delayed, which meant in the end there was a substantial overlap with the early part of the 456 plan. I hate to think how close it came on the training side to a bit of a meltdown!

WWTownEnth said:

Are they DEFINITELY going off lease? I heard somewhere that the Aventra order may not be enough, given the increase in Windsor and Reading trains from Dec 2018, and that the 707s may be retained.

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Surely SWR ordered enough 701s! The requirement in the ITT for the extra services wasn't exactly a secret!

Taking the suburban fleet on its own, the present level of 455 usage is, I believe quite low (in numbers) as there was originally a plan to implement four additional peak services on the Windsor side (using 8 units in total) which was postponed or whatever, so there is (I presume?) quite a bit of slack in that particular fleet at the moment, so although the present suburban total of 742 cars is only just shy of SWRs proposed 750 new cars, that 455 slack combined with whatever diagram scenario the Dec 2018 timetable revamp brings about should prove enough - I would guess!

707005 on 2S13 this morning. On the tube status board, the “good service” for the northern line is indented one character to the left than the other four. The “northern line” black banner is also one line higher than the others.