Preferred rolling stock for Ashford to Ore post possible Electfication

Wirewiper · 20 Jan 2018

Southern class 377 Electrostars operating an hourly Brighton - Ashford International service, keep it simple. The extra trains could probably be sourced by better utilisation* of existing rolling stock. I'm not convinced about making it part of SouthEastern and tacking it on to HS1.

* Or if Uckfield was to be electrified too, transfer some of the redundant 707s from South Western Railway over to Southern and create a cascade.

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LunchSociety · 20 Jan 2018

Wirewiper said:
Southern class 377 Electrostars operating an hourly Brighton - Ashford International service, keep it simple. I'm not convinced about making it part of SouthEastern and tacking it on to HS1.

Personally, I agree with you though articles I've read suggest that not everyone agrees. I'd rather see High Speed extended along classic lines already served by 395s to further improve journey times though of course this would not be without its own set of problems! :lol:

JamesRowden · 20 Jan 2018

fergusjbend said:
As the study says: "6.4.4. Although this seems a fairly simple proposal, the technicalities of installing the crossovers, power supplies and signalling enhancements add significantly to the challenges of the scheme, which would cost in the region of £15-35M."

So it's the construction work and not the redesign work which is substantial.

JamesRowden · 20 Jan 2018

Wirewiper said:
Southern class 377 Electrostars operating an hourly Brighton - Ashford International service, keep it simple. The extra trains could probably be sourced by better utilisation* of existing rolling stock. I'm not convinced about making it part of SouthEastern and tacking it on to HS1.

* Or if Uckfield was to be electrified too, transfer some of the redundant 707s from South Western Railway over to Southern and create a cascade.

Increase the speed limit between Ore and Rye back up to 85mph throughout and an every 30 minutes service can operate in each direction.

30907 · 20 Jan 2018

JamesRowden said:
Increase the speed limit between Ore and Rye back up to 85mph throughout and an every 30 minutes service can operate in each direction.

Was it 85mph more recently than 1977?

yorksrob · 20 Jan 2018

fergusjbend said:
The junction between the Maidstone branch and platforms 1 & 2 is west of that between platforms 5 & 6 and HS1 i.e trains from/to Hastings cannot access HS1 now, nor could they in future without substantial redesign.

Ah cheers. Still, if one of the posters above is correct, such a change might not be needed anyway if services via Tunbridge Wells can be speeded up.

fergusjbend · 20 Jan 2018

I have a feeling that this debate ranks with the mediaeval controversy as to how many angels could stand on the head of a pin. No doubt the Marsh Line could be upgraded at enormous cost, but is it really worth it?

Hastings ranks as one of England's most deprived communities and its prospects could only be improved by better rail connections. However, the same could be said for numerous communities in northern England which do not enjoy the privilege of having Amber Rudd as their MP. There is a real issue of fairness here, and it seems to me that the south east of England has had it's fair slice of the cake and it is time to spend a lot more money in the north.

JamesRowden · 20 Jan 2018

fergusjbend said:
I have a feeling that this debate ranks with the mediaeval controversy as to how many angels could stand on the head of a pin. No doubt the Marsh Line could be upgraded at enormous cost, but is it really worth it?

Hastings ranks as one of England's most deprived communities and its prospects could only be improved by better rail connections. However, the same could be said for numerous communities in northern England which do not enjoy the privilege of having Amber Rudd as their MP. There is a real issue of fairness here, and it seems to me that the south east of England has had it's fair slice of the cake and it is time to spend a lot more money in the north.

All the Marshlink needs is a half hourly service between Brighton/Eastbourne and Ashford with good connections to HS1 services and a reasonable speed limit throughout since it's potentially the quickest rail link for over 130,000 people to East Kent, North London, East London and all of the destinations North and East of London. It would cost peanuts compared to those investments in the South East which you refer to (which don't offer any significant benefit to Bexhill/Hastings except for HS1 which requires a decent Marshlink service to be useful).

yorksrob · 21 Jan 2018

fergusjbend said:
I have a feeling that this debate ranks with the mediaeval controversy as to how many angels could stand on the head of a pin. No doubt the Marsh Line could be upgraded at enormous cost, but is it really worth it?

Hastings ranks as one of England's most deprived communities and its prospects could only be improved by better rail connections. However, the same could be said for numerous communities in northern England which do not enjoy the privilege of having Amber Rudd as their MP. There is a real issue of fairness here, and it seems to me that the south east of England has had it's fair slice of the cake and it is time to spend a lot more money in the north.

As someone who's lived in the North and the South, I agree that improvements are needed in Northern England, but then again I don't see the Marshlink as being part of a North/South issue, I see it as being more of a main/secondary line issue. In that, I think that the Marshlink has more in common with a Northern regional railway than the commuter belt. I think that in general, there's too little funding for improvements to secondary/regional routes across the whole of the country.

Marshlink could do with a simple infill third rail electrification, of the sort that the Southern Region used to excel at. The hysterical ban on third rail extensions needs to be binned.

D365 · 21 Jan 2018

yorksrob said:
Marshlink could do with a simple infill third rail electrification, of the sort that the Southern Region used to excel at. The hysterical ban on third rail extensions needs to be binned.

Trouble is the feeder equipment is far too expensive for what you get out of it. Though it’s a contributing factor, from a simple engineering perspective the concern is not with safety.

yorksrob · 21 Jan 2018

D365 said:
Trouble is the feeder equipment is far too expensive for what you get out of it. Though it’s a contributing factor, from a simple engineering perspective the concern is not with safety.

It's always been said on here that the ORR won't allow it on safety grounds, however if that isn't the case, I'm happy to stand corrected.

In terms of feeder equipment, the route is never going to require platoons of twelve carriage expresses, so a lower spec electrification of the type installed by BR in the 90's to places such as Weymouth would be fine.

D365 · 21 Jan 2018

yorksrob said:
It's always been said on here that the ORR won't allow it on safety grounds, however if that isn't the case, I'm happy to stand corrected.

In terms of feeder equipment, the route is never going to require platoons of twelve carriage expresses, so a lower spec electrification of the type installed by BR in the 90's to places such as Weymouth would be fine.

“Low spec” third rail simply isn’t possible, taking into account the need for electrical redundancy and the increase in power demand of a 377 over the equivalent slam-door stock. Even if the safety concerns didn’t exist I can’t imagine the attitude would be much different.

yorksrob · 21 Jan 2018

D365 said:
“Low spec” third rail simply isn’t possible, taking into account the need for electrical redundancy and the increase in power demand of a 377 over the equivalent slam-door stock. Even if the safety concerns didn’t exist I can’t imagine the attitude would be much different.

I'm sure Poole - Weymouth is still powered for shorter trains than the main line section.

Class 170101 · 21 Jan 2018

Poole to Weymouth doe have a reduced supply compared to the rest of the Southwest electrified lines. I think only 4/5 cars are permitted. Attachments taking place at Bournmouth to make units of Class 444 or Class 450 operating in multiple.

As I recall eight carriage trains did operate there during the Olympics but it was extremely tight on the DC supply. So some XC Voyagers assisted with their fleet being stretched plus 4 HSTs being used daily.

Preferred rolling stock for Ashford to Ore post possible Electfication

Wirewiper

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