Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

snowball · 15 Dec 2017

GRIP 3 was also due about now on Lostock-Wigan electrification.

RailUK Forums

twpsaesneg · 17 Dec 2017

snowball said:
GRIP 3 was also due about now on Lostock-Wigan electrification.

Early in the New Year but probably not badged as GRIP3...

IanXC · 20 Dec 2017

Can I remind members that this thread is for discussion of potential CP6 Electrification and the Transpennine Route Upgrade.

I have moved discussion of longer term issues to a new thread here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/transport-for-the-north-draft-30-year-transport-plan.158285/

WatcherZero · 20 Dec 2017

The CP6 Electrification and the Transpennine Route Upgrade scheme is now NPR.

GRALISTAIR · 20 Dec 2017

WatcherZero said:
The CP6 Electrification and the Transpennine Route Upgrade scheme is now NPR.

North Pennine Route ?

Nean · 20 Dec 2017

GRALISTAIR said:
North Pennine Route ?

I believe Northern Powerhouse Rail...

B&I · 20 Dec 2017

Nean said:
I believe Northern Powerhouse Rail...

Not Paid-for, Realistically?

GRALISTAIR · 20 Dec 2017

Nean said:
I believe Northern Powerhouse Rail...

Wow spot the brain cell ! I am sorry - I really should have known that

lejog · 20 Dec 2017

WatcherZero said:
The CP6 Electrification and the Transpennine Route Upgrade scheme is now NPR.

No its not, TPRU is a planned £3bn Network Rail/DfT project to upgrade and electrify the existing Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds-York line due to take place within CP6.

NPR is part of TfNs longer term transport strategy for the North (total budget £70bn), and is a 30year project to provide improved rail connections between Northern cities. This is now reported to include a completely new line between Manchester and Leeds serving Bradford and use of the planned HS2 line between Leeds and York (specifically Garforth and Church Fenton). In the future requirements for rail upgrades won't be handed down on tablets of stone by Network Rail/DfT it will be up the North to define what they want and justify the investment.

How much the TfN plans will affect the TPRU plans is of course a matter of debate. e.g. if TPRU includes an option for 4 tracking between Leeds and Micklefield, could that now be cut back to Leeds-Garforth?

WatcherZero · 20 Dec 2017

It also includes upgrades on North Transpennine and the electrification was frozen so that the scope of NPR could be decided as they didn't want to install overheads then have to move them with track alterations.

Viscount702 · 20 Dec 2017

TPRU and NPR are separate schemes TPRU will go ahead in some form or another with electrification in whole or part. NPR is years off and I am sure the Government will water it down to practically nothing in the end if it is not cancelled.

Olaf · 20 Dec 2017

So far there is nothing agreed for the TRU, or Electrification in CP6; there are draft proposals, but these have not been agreed to by the DfT yet, and there is as yet no funding, nor any formal implementation plans.

lejog · 20 Dec 2017

WatcherZero said:
It also includes upgrades on North Transpennine and the electrification was frozen so that the scope of NPR could be decided as they didn't want to install overheads then have to move them with track alterations.

What is it, NPR or TfNs strategy? Electrification was frozen when it became obvious that straight electrification of the existing line would not result in any faster journey or improved capacity, it was restarted with a requirement of a 40 minute Manchester - Leeds journey time. It was not frozen so that the "scope of NPR could be decided" as that has not yet happened and is not in NR's or even the DfT's control as to what TfN recommend. NPR is a totally separate project, run by a totally different organization with a different requirement of a 30 minute Manchester-Leeds journey. Prior to the release of the TfN plan in January the best information on the planned scope of NPR in the public domain is an outline of the routes and the planned touchpoints with HS2 is an October report to the executive of West Yorkshire Combined Authority covering decisions taken by the TfN board. The recommendations are a mix of new lines, use of HS2 and upgrade of existing lines, but of relevance to TPRU are the following:

A new Trans Pennine rail line that connects Manchester and Leeds via Bradford;

........

Leeds to Newcastle via HS2 junction at Garforth and upgrades to the East Coast Mainline

It seems unlikely that as currently planned that NPR will make much use of the TPRU, perhaps only Leeds to Garforth.

lejog · 19 Jan 2018

According to a report to the West Yorkshire Combined Authority, GRIP 3 is complete and in the hands of the DfT. Given the timetable, don't expect anymore news yet awhile though!

It is understood that Network Rail have submitted their report to the Department for Transport on the options for TRU as expected on the 14th December.

The DfT have confirmed that the submission by Network Rail on December 14th will initially remain private to allow the Secretary of State ample opportunity to be briefed on the findings. However, it is Rail North’s intention to request sight of the entire report and in collaboration with Rail North Partner authorities (including WYCA) and Transport for the North, develop a pan view/input to Government on a preferred outcome, output and scheme scope:

With regards to the next steps the indicative timeline for decision making is as follows:

14 December 2017: Price, programme and options received by Department for Transport, based on the original 16 July 2016 Client Development Remit;

December 2017 – Spring 2018: development and assessment of the best value and affordable combination of options and impact on the franchises, with support from Rail North Partnership;

Spring 2018: Department to engage with Rail North/Transport for the North on how to achieve the agreed objectives for TRU and possible interaction with other schemes;

Summer 2018: Consideration of stakeholder views and interactions with other schemes by DfT, and recommendation for preferred option, ubject to Ministerial and Treasury approval;

Summer/Autumn 2018: Approvals for progressing TRU to the next stage – outline design; and

2019: Following outline design outcomes -decision on final scope, full business case and investment authority, through DfT and HMT

snowball · 19 Jan 2018

I wonder if the GRIP 3 report includes any improvements west of Stalybridge, or was it produced on the assumption that Victoria to Stalybridge would have been completed already.

lejog · 20 Jan 2018

snowball said:
I wonder if the GRIP 3 report includes any improvements west of Stalybridge, or was it produced on the assumption that Victoria to Stalybridge would have been completed already.

I know that according to the current CP5 enhancements plan that Victoria to Stalybridge electrification has disappeared from one project and not appeared in the scope of the TRU project, but (I hope) that is just due to the embarrassingly shoddy quality of that document. It was noticeable in the youtube presentation on the TRU project much discussed earlier in this thread, that Manchester to Stalybridge upgrades were now at least implicitly included e.g. in the proposed speed profile.

LNW-GW Joint · 20 Jan 2018

lejog said:
I know that according to the current CP5 enhancements plan that Victoria to Stalybridge electrification has disappeared from one project and not appeared in the scope of the TRU project, but (I hope) that is just due to the embarrassingly shoddy quality of that document. It was noticeable in the youtube presentation on the TRU project much discussed earlier in this thread, that Manchester to Stalybridge upgrades were now at least implicitly included e.g. in the proposed speed profile.

The NRE piece on this weekend's engineering work at Huddersfield says:

As part of the Trans-Pennine Route Upgrade, Network Rail are upgrading bridges, tunnels, track, junctions and signalling.
Work will be done assessing 38 level crossings along the route, removing trees and installing fencing.
Network Rail are also installing overhead line equipment so that electric trains can run along the route.

I suppose it covers the tiny amount of track being wired east of Manchester Victoria, but there's nothing like painting a misleading picture.

Olaf · 21 Jan 2018

lejog said:
I know that according to the current CP5 enhancements plan that Victoria to Stalybridge electrification has disappeared from one project and not appeared in the scope of the TRU project, but (I hope) that is just due to the embarrassingly shoddy quality of that document. It was noticeable in the youtube presentation on the TRU project much discussed earlier in this thread, that Manchester to Stalybridge upgrades were now at least implicitly included e.g. in the proposed speed profile.

It is still there, under North of England Programmes (LNW) with and EIS of May 18 - or is that something different?

snowball · 21 Jan 2018

Olaf said:
It is still there, under North of England Programmes (LNW) with and EIS of May 18 - or is that something different?

There is an item that is still named Manchester-Stalybridge but its content has been reduced to a few hundred yards eastward from Victoria. See page 9 of the document, right-hand column.

Olaf · 21 Jan 2018

snowball said:
There is an item that is still named Manchester-Stalybridge but its content has been reduced to a few hundred yards eastward from Victoria. See page 9 of the document, right-hand column.

Yes, that is what I was looking at - but I did not know where Bromley Street is until I checked.

The explicit assumption of of the TRU project in the same plan has Stalybridge as the starting point, so yes I guess lejog has a valid point.

Could be a gap in the overhead but could also be pending outcome of discussions with TfN/RailNorth regarding details of their proposals.

lejog · 22 Jan 2018

A little more detail from a presentation to Kirklees Scrutiny Committee (courtesy of the Huddersfield Station thread)

–
Network Rail has developed options for TRU ranging from

–no electrification
–partial electrification
–to full electrification
–
Options to be presented to DfT Dec 2017
–
DfT to confirm preferred option Spring 2018
–
Indications are that favoured option is a partial/hybrid electrification proposal.

So after all the flack for Grayling on this forum, it looks as if Network Rail are putting forward a hybrid solution.. There is then a slide entitled "What will the hybrid solution be?" unfortunately with no text, but with pictures of a battery powered train and a blurry but interesting looking graph if anyone can work out its significance.

Domh245 · 22 Jan 2018

lejog said:
blurry but interesting looking graph if anyone can work out its significance.

I think it is just a diagram of a pantograph head, indicating the area in which the contact wire is supposed to be.

YorkshireBear · 22 Jan 2018

lejog said:
A little more detail from a presentation to Kirklees Scrutiny Committee (courtesy of the Huddersfield Station thread)

So after all the flack for Grayling on this forum, it looks as if Network Rail are putting forward a hybrid solution.. There is then a slide entitled "What will the hybrid solution be?" unfortunately with no text, but with pictures of a battery powered train and a blurry but interesting looking graph if anyone can work out its significance.

I strongly suspect Network Rail have produced that option at the instruction of Grayling as opposed to them doing it for fun.

Also when talking about huge public sector investment, they have to be seen to have explored all options.

GRALISTAIR · 22 Jan 2018

lejog said:
A little more detail from a presentation to Kirklees Scrutiny Committee (courtesy of the Huddersfield Station thread)

So after all the flack for Grayling on this forum, it looks as if Network Rail are putting forward a hybrid solution.. There is then a slide entitled "What will the hybrid solution be?" unfortunately with no text, but with pictures of a battery powered train and a blurry but interesting looking graph if anyone can work out its significance.

I say lets wait and see - no electrification is still an option

61653 HTAFC · 23 Jan 2018

Not sure this is related to Trans-Pennine Route Upgrade, but this morning I've seen that the wilderness behind platform 2 at Batley has been cleared, with a small squadron of the orange army apparently inspecting the ground. The good news is that it feels more open, the bad news is that it now is rather exposed on a day like today!

I certainly wasn't aware of any plans to use this space to create a line bypassing the platform, and to do so would impact linespeeds as well as duplicating an existing overtaking point at Mirfield.

More likely it's to improve access for the upgrade itself, whatever shape that may take.

deltic08 · 23 Jan 2018

61653 HTAFC said:
Not sure this is related to Trans-Pennine Route Upgrade, but this morning I've seen that the wilderness behind platform 2 at Batley has been cleared, with a small squadron of the orange army apparently inspecting the ground. The good news is that it feels more open, the bad news is that it now is rather exposed on a day like today!

I certainly wasn't aware of any plans to use this space to create a line bypassing the platform, and to do so would impact linespeeds as well as duplicating an existing overtaking point at Mirfield.

More likely it's to improve access for the upgrade itself, whatever shape that may take.

Is that the Dewsbury bound side?

61653 HTAFC · 24 Jan 2018

deltic08 said:
Is that the Dewsbury bound side?

Yes, the Westbound/"up" side.

It's often suggested on these fora (mostly on "pie in the sky" threads) that an overtaking loop could be built there... however much like putting a 4th track at Dewsbury, unless you want to start rebuilding Victorian viaducts you'd end up with a slower alignment than at present due to curvature.

Spartacus · 25 Jan 2018

Would that much need to be done though? I'm sure it wouldn't be too much work to alter the platform to make the platform face round the back and make the current platform the through line.

IanXC · 25 Jan 2018

Spartacus said:
Would that much need to be done though? I'm sure it wouldn't be too much work to alter the platform to make the platform face round the back and make the current platform the through line.

'Round the back' as in, the other side of the station building, between it and the station approach road?

Spartacus · 25 Jan 2018

On the Up side opposite the main station building, where the previous lines and platforms used to be. A bit might have to be chopped off the Huddersfield end of the platform, but there's lots of room at the Leeds end to build there.

All things said though, the work might easily be to do with the recent engineering work, or as elsewhere on the route just a general heavy tidy up.

Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

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