Southern to Charing X

SEClass375 · 19 Jan 2018

Not quite sure if I am in the right place for this but:

When did or had Southern operated services to or from London Charing Cross?
Where did they go to?
When did they start and stop those services?

The reason for my questioning as I have:
a) Seen a YouTube clip of a southern train departing London Bridge High Level with the destination of CHX
b) Seen a picture of CHX in the local newspaper with a Southern class 455 sitting in one of the platforms

RailUK Forums

bicbasher · 19 Jan 2018

Southern had a legacy from the Network SouthEast/South Central period of running 2tph off-peak into Charing Cross. Slots weren't available during the peaks.

Initially these were 2tph to Caterham, this changed after Southern took over to Horsham (may be Connex SC?) during the day, which later changed to Tattenham Corner with Caterham stoppers during evenings and Sundays. There was also 1tph on a Sunday to Tattenham Corner, alternating with Caterham.

MatthewRead · 19 Jan 2018

I already made a thread about this!

Minstral25 · 19 Jan 2018

Seems like trains are coming from Redhill and East Croydon back to Charing Cross on Saturday 3rd February, although they will be SouthEastern rather than Southern
http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/J14808/2018-02-03

SEClass375 · 19 Jan 2018

Minstral25 said:
Seems like trains are coming from Redhill and East Croydon back to Charing Cross on Saturday 3rd February, although they will be SouthEastern rather than Southern
http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/J14808/2018-02-03

It is a diversion due to engineering works although when they do that diversion they normally terminate at London Bridge like tomorrow (20/01/2018)

Ianno87 · 19 Jan 2018

The services ended in December 2009.

At the end the services were:
-2tph daytime off-peak Reigate/Tonbridge
-2tph evening/Sundays Caterham via Forest Hill

JamesRowden · 19 Jan 2018

SEClass375 said:
It is a diversion due to engineering works although when they do that diversion they normally terminate at London Bridge like tomorrow (20/01/2018)

The diverted Hastings to Charing Cross trains only started terminating at London Bridge during the London Bridge works. Before that they ran through to Charing Cross when diverted via Redhill.

30907 · 19 Jan 2018

bicbasher said:
Southern had a legacy from the Network SouthEast/South Central period of running 2tph off-peak into Charing Cross. Slots weren't available during the peaks.

Initially these were 2tph to Caterham, this changed after Southern took over to Horsham (may be Connex SC?) during the day, which later changed to Tattenham Corner with Caterham stoppers during evenings and Sundays. There was also 1tph on a Sunday to Tattenham Corner, alternating with Caterham.

The Tats and Cats (dividing at Purley) go back to the origins of the railway network. The SER originally ran from Redhill to Dover, with running powers over the London and Croydon, and joint ownership thence with the Brighton company. The Caterham Railway and later the Tadworth branch both became part of the SER and naturally had through trains from its London termini. At electrification they were cut back to London Bridge.

Taunton · 20 Jan 2018

30907 said:
The Tats and Cats (dividing at Purley) go back to the origins of the railway network. The SER originally ran from Redhill to Dover, with running powers over the London and Croydon, and joint ownership thence with the Brighton company. The Caterham Railway and later the Tadworth branch both became part of the SER and naturally had through trains from its London termini. At electrification they were cut back to London Bridge.

Actually that carried right on through. The 1930s electrification, and into the 1950s-80s, the Tatts and Cats continued running to Charing Cross off-peak, but were cut back to London Bridge terminal platforms in the peak. When the Eastern Division went over to wholly EPB units in 1962, these lines did as well, so the end of SUBs at Charing Cross.

Apart from Charing Cross having platforms pretty full in the peak, these were the only trains which crossed from the SE Lines to the Central Lines beyond London Bridge, which was even more of a peak period issue before the 1976 Borough Market remodelling when the down lines from both Charing Cross and Cannon Street were on the far north side of the formation.

30907 · 21 Jan 2018

Taunton said:
Actually that carried right on through. The 1930s electrification, and into the 1950s-80s, the Tatts and Cats continued running to Charing Cross off-peak, but were cut back to London Bridge terminal platforms in the peak. When the Eastern Division went over to wholly EPB units in 1962, these lines did as well, so the end of SUBs at Charing Cross.

Apart from Charing Cross having platforms pretty full in the peak, these were the only trains which crossed from the SE Lines to the Central Lines beyond London Bridge, which was even more of a peak period issue before the 1976 Borough Market remodelling when the down lines from both Charing Cross and Cannon Street were on the far north side of the formation.

Sorry, should have checked before pressing send! Meant to say... "in the peaks". (Though they were always the first to be cut back when there was trouble.) In the 60s-70s they were the only 10-car suburbans outside the SED, and used the Bulleid style 2EPBs.

Taunton · 21 Jan 2018

30907 said:
In the 60s-70s they were the only 10-car suburbans outside the SED, and used the Bulleid 2EPBs.

I presume these are units 5651-84. They were actually built long after Bulleid's time, not only that, they were built after the BR standard design EPB units 5701 and upwards started to appear. This was because the latter are wholly new vehicles, built to the BR standard of the era, whereas the 5651 units were built on the underframes of old 2-NOL units, themselves having underframes dating from the 1930s but with older wooden bodies mounted. When the bodies were scrapped, the BR standard body design did not readily fit on the underframes, felt to still have life left, whereas the body design of the earlier 4-EPB did so. These units had also been introduced well after Bulleid's time, and compared to the 4-SUBs have a great many differences, both body and in fittings, so I'd never really regard them as a Bulleid design. Theoretically, using the tradition of naming stock after the CME at its introduction, they should be called Riddles units, but that just doesn't sound right.

These 2-EPB units at the end were transferred to be the first electrics on the extended North London electrification, from Richmond right round to North Woolwich, in 1984.

MatthewRead · 22 Jan 2018

Taunton said:
I presume these are units 5651-84. They were actually built long after Bulleid's time, not only that, they were built after the BR standard design EPB units 5701 and upwards started to appear. This was because the latter are wholly new vehicles, built to the BR standard of the era, whereas the 5651 units were built on the underframes of old 2-NOL units, themselves having underframes dating from the 1930s but with older wooden bodies mounted. When the bodies were scrapped, the BR standard body design did not readily fit on the underframes, felt to still have life left, whereas the body design of the earlier 4-EPB did so. These units had also been introduced well after Bulleid's time, and compared to the 4-SUBs have a great many differences, both body and in fittings, so I'd never really regard them as a Bulleid design. Theoretically, using the tradition of naming stock after the CME at its introduction, they should be called Riddles units, but that just doesn't sound right.

These 2-EPB units at the end were transferred to be the first electrics on the extended North London electrification, from Richmond right round to North Woolwich, in 1984.

I thought it was in 1985 when the Class 501's were withdrawn.

30907 · 22 Jan 2018

Taunton said:
I presume these are units 5651-84. They were actually built long after Bulleid's time, not only that, they were built after the BR standard design EPB units 5701 and upwards started to appear. This was because the latter are wholly new vehicles, built to the BR standard of the era, whereas the 5651 units were built on the underframes of old 2-NOL units, themselves having underframes dating from the 1930s but with older wooden bodies mounted. When the bodies were scrapped, the BR standard body design did not readily fit on the underframes, felt to still have life left, whereas the body design of the earlier 4-EPB did so. These units had also been introduced well after Bulleid's time, and compared to the 4-SUBs have a great many differences, both body and in fittings, so I'd never really regard them as a Bulleid design.

You're right, SR type 2EPB would be more correct, amended earlier post.

eastwestdivide · 22 Jan 2018

In both the 1978 all-line timetable and the 1985 ABC rail guide, there were half-hourly through trains from the Central Division to Charing X outside the peak hours (including Sat and Sun). The 1978 shows them as joining at Purley from Tattenham Corner and Caterham, but the 1985 version has the Tattenham Corner branch as a shuttle terminating at Purley.
Also in 1985, it shows a one-per-hour service between CX and Reigate, 2nd class only, disappearing in the peaks, and running Sats but not Suns.

Edit: just found the Sep 1963 SR timetable, which also shows the same pattern as the 1978 timetable, through CX-Cat/Tatt half-hourly, not in the rush hour.

bicbasher · 22 Jan 2018

Were these services stoppers via Forest Hill or fast to Norwood Junction? I remember certain services from CHX being fast between New Cross Gate and Forest Hill and Sydenham to Norwood Junction.

30907 · 22 Jan 2018

bicbasher said:
Were these services stoppers via Forest Hill or fast to Norwood Junction? I remember certain services from CHX being fast between New Cross Gate and Forest Hill and Sydenham to Norwood Junction.

Until the mid 70s (IIRC - might have been the big 1967 timetable change) they were fast LBG-NWD. They then changed to the pattern you mention for a considerable period.

eastwestdivide · 23 Jan 2018

bicbasher said:
Were these services stoppers via Forest Hill or fast to Norwood Junction? I remember certain services from CHX being fast between New Cross Gate and Forest Hill and Sydenham to Norwood Junction.

From my timetables,
1963: Tatt/Cat London Bridge, New Cross Gate, Norwood Junction etc

1978: Tatt/Cat L Br, New Cross Gate, Forest Hill, Sydenham, Norwood Jn etc

1985: Caterham only, one of the 2 per hour was L Br, New Cross Gate, Forest Hill, Sydenham, Norwood Jn etc while the other was the same plus Brockley, Honor Oak Park.
The 1985 CX-Reigate was L Br, New Cross Gate, Forest Hill, Sydenham, Norwood Jn etc
The three Central Division services per hour from CX (2x Caterham and 1x Redhill) were at even intervals from CX, as xx00 Caterham, xx20 Redhill, xx40 Caterham.

Edit: just found a 1974 ABC guide, showing the same off-peak service, i.e. 2 per hour CX-Tatt/Cat, running fast New Cross Gate to Norwood Jn. Again, no CX services in the rush hours.

Taunton · 23 Jan 2018

The pattern had been like that since the 1930s electrification. It's as if the 1923 grouping had never happened. I wonder when Caterham and Tattenham Corner were transferred from the Eastern to the Central Division. Even the intermediate stopping pattern described, before 1985, reflects the stations the SE&C running powers had allowed them to serve, and which not.

Busaholic · 23 Jan 2018

I can remember several occasions in the 1970s and 1980s, when I lived in first Hither Green, then Blackheath, going to Charing Cross to board a train in the afternoon and finding only a Caterham/ Tatt Cnr on the boards, so catching it to LB in the hope of something else that had come from Cannon Street. They always seemed to be allowed to occupy the platform at CX for longer than the SE services.

30907 · 23 Jan 2018

eastwestdivide said:
From my timetables,
1963: Tatt/Cat London Bridge, New Cross Gate, Norwood Junction etc

So the NXG stop was introduced after Summer 1961 (the one I checked) and by Summer 1963. The second change probably coincided with LBG resignalling.

Jimini · 24 Jan 2018

I'm sure I can recall getting a train from Carshalton Beeches direct to Charing X, back in 2002 or so. Not sure of the calling pattern north of West Croydon though, to be honest.

bicbasher · 28 Jan 2018

I'd speculate then that the Up and Down Sussex Slow had 2tph mainly until the Charing Cross semi fasts were introduced in the late 70s?

Southern to Charing X

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