Does a ticket have to have the + cross London transfer to be valid via London

gray1404 · 21 Jan 2018

If there is a ticket that doesn't contain the + symbol (thus not making it valid for a cross London transfer on the LU, DLR or TL etc) if the station origin and destination according to the route guide make it valid via London, then is that ticket valid via London if you choose to make your own way/at your own expense between the 2 London terminals?

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najaB · 21 Jan 2018

gray1404 said:
If there is a ticket that doesn't contain the + symbol (thus not making it valid for a cross London transfer on the LU, DLR or TL etc) if the station origin and destination according to the route guide make it valid via London, then is that ticket valid via London if you choose to make your own way/at your own expense between the 2 London terminals?

I would think so, yes provided it doesn't have a 'via' point which would make travel through London impossible. Though I would also expect any such ticket to be valid on trains that don't enter central London - e.g. assuming there's a Norwich to Liverpool ticket that doesn't have the dagger (I haven't checked) then you should be able to travel Norwich-Stratford-Watford Junction-Liverpool.

PermitToTravel · 21 Jan 2018

Or, you know, on the direct Norwich to Liverpool trains that go nowhere near Stratford

maniacmartin · 21 Jan 2018

To quote from the National Routeing Guide Instructions:

In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the fares data will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

National Rail operators should honour this, but TfL will not, so you will have to make your own way across London.

najaB · 21 Jan 2018

PermitToTravel said:
Or, you know, on the direct Norwich to Liverpool trains that go nowhere near Stratford

Yeah, but who wants to be boring?

gray1404 · 21 Jan 2018

maniacmartin said:
To quote from the National Routeing Guide Instructions:

National Rail operators should honour this, but TfL will not, so you will have to make your own way across London.

Very interesting!

yorkie · 21 Jan 2018

gray1404 said:
If there is a ticket that doesn't contain the + symbol (thus not making it valid for a cross London transfer on the LU, DLR or TL etc) if the station origin and destination according to the route guide make it valid via London, then is that ticket valid via London if you choose to make your own way/at your own expense between the 2 London terminals?

Yes, in addition to the reply by maniacmartin, I refer you to this post:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ster-off-peak-return-svr.157181/#post-3208644

Avoiding LU will significantly reduce the chances of conflict, but will not eliminate it, as not all staff with a responsibility for checking tickets are familiar with the relevant rules.

gray1404 · 21 Jan 2018

Thanks for the input guys.

In that case I am going to start using the said ticket into London, make my own way across London (either by Oyster card, by bus - both at my own expense) or walking down the road to St Pancras and trying to board TL with my ticket.

TUC · 22 Jan 2018

maniacmartin said:
To quote from the National Routeing Guide Instructions:

National Rail operators should honour this, but TfL will not, so you will have to make your own way across London.

Do you mean that TfL will not honour it or that TfL should honour it but too many of their staff will not understand it?

MikeWh · 22 Jan 2018

TUC said:
Do you mean that TfL will not honour it or that TfL should honour it but too many of their staff will not understand it?

A bit of both. To be fair to the staff, they are told that tickets allowing Underground travel will have the maltese cross and there's no way that they can be expected to understand the minutiae of the NR routeing guide.

Bletchleyite · 22 Jan 2018

MikeWh said:
A bit of both. To be fair to the staff, they are told that tickets allowing Underground travel will have the maltese cross and there's no way that they can be expected to understand the minutiae of the NR routeing guide.

I've had similar problems with a Sleeper 1st ticket which was at the time meant to include a zone 1 Underground single but wasn't printed as such (and wasn't meant to be). Euston LU refused it, and wouldn't even accept it when told to do so by phone from the ticket office upstairs. I ended up buying a cash single (which Euston VT ticket office issued and endorsed to the effect that the LU staff had refused a valid ticket) and claiming it back from Caledonian Sleeper.

causton · 22 Jan 2018

Bletchleyite said:
...
Euston LU refused it, and wouldn't even accept it when told to do so by phone from the ticket office upstairs.
...

Devil's advocate here:

Why should they?

Just as National Rail TOC staff have very little LU ticket training, London Underground staff are shown that either a ticket must say Zone Ux, have a Maltese Cross, etc -- or during disruption to accept tickets on behalf of X TOC. If National Rail as a whole can't get it right, that is their fault, not LU!

For example if LU machines did not print the correct zones on a Travelcard* - I would not be accepting it unless specifically briefed by my company, to put things the other way round.

*For example, Gold Record Cards for Zones 1-9 + Watford Junction just print "123456789" - luckily I can scan the Oyster card to find the correct zones!

hounddog · 22 Jan 2018

Am I missing something? Why are tickets that are valid for cross-London transfer *ever* printed without the Maltese cross?

Is there some subtle underlying reason or is it just incompetence in setting the fares up on the system?

MikeWh · 22 Jan 2018

hounddog said:
Am I missing something? Why are tickets that are valid for cross-London transfer *ever* printed without the Maltese cross?

Is there some subtle underlying reason or is it just incompetence in setting the fares up on the system?

Incompetence is probably a little bit strong, but the complicated fares structure is to blame. A not via London ticket which used to be cheaper than the via London equivalent and no longer is becomes valid via both routes but won't have the maltese cross.

najaB · 22 Jan 2018

hounddog said:
Is there some subtle underlying reason or is it just incompetence in setting the fares up on the system?

My guess is that it happens when the 'intended' route isn't via London but the routeing guide makes journey opportunities available via London.

MotCO · 22 Jan 2018

najaB said:
My guess is that it happens when the 'intended' route isn't via London but the routeing guide makes journey opportunities available via London.

I occasionally travel from Orpington to Reading, and the fare is always the same. However, the ticket atached did not have the Maltese Cross; all others have had.

It didn't work the barriers, but fortunately I was waved through but advised that I wouldn't in future.

.

najaB · 23 Jan 2018

MotCO said:
I occasionally travel from Orpington to Reading, and the fare is always the same. However, the ticket atached did not have the Maltese Cross; all others have had.

It looks to me like it should have the cross: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=0403&dest=ORP&ldn=1&tkt=SDR

Paul Kelly · 23 Jan 2018

That Orpington to Reading ticket was issued in the first few weeks after the new fares database ("Product Management System") was introduced by the TOCs. There were a lot of errors in those days and I seem to recall missing Maltese Crosses was one of them.

Does a ticket have to have the + cross London transfer to be valid via London

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