Is Heathrow Express a good use of resources?

Tetchytyke · 3 Feb 2018

Non Multi said:
it's not difficult to get to the H&C platforms if you follow the signs. I do accept it's a long walk.

I lived in London long enough to know my way around Paddington.

It's a long walk and, with luggage, it involves waiting for two sets of lifts. And even without luggage, getting down on to the H&C platforms is always fun at peak time when there's a stampede of Reading commuters coming the other way up the stairs.

coppercapped said:
And this myth about not much going on at Paddington, or it being out in the sticks, is nonsense. It's been in business since 1838

Huh?

There's bugger all actually at Paddington. But of course it's busy, it's the Great Western's terminal station.

It's not a criticism- until very recently all there was at Kings Cross and St Pancras was hookers- just an observation that the terminal station is rarely the ultimate destination.

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JamesRowden · 3 Feb 2018

coppercapped said:
If one refers to terminating a contract or service it means it is being cancelled prematurely. If you meant to say that it shouldn't be renewed after expiry then a more explicit form of words would avoid misunderstanding.

Only 'terminating a contract' implies that. Which I did not say. It is the contract to run the service which can be renewed, not the service itself.

Also, I was not exclusively referring to the service being terminated by the failure to renew this contract, I was also referring to the expiry of potential future contracts.

Non Multi · 3 Feb 2018

Arctic Troll said:
It's a long walk and, with luggage, it involves waiting for two sets of lifts. And even without luggage, getting down on to the H&C platforms is always fun at peak time when there's a stampede of Reading commuters coming the other way up the stairs.

Getting between King's X (or Euston) and Heathrow using the Elizabeth Line will still require a change at Tottenham Ct Rd or Farringdon. So there's going to be crowds, lifts and long walks whatever you decide to use.

3141 · 3 Feb 2018

92 posts in under 24 hours is quite a lot, and some definitely show a degree of dislike towards people who can afford to use an expensive service. There was another similar thread about a year ago, in which someone made the point that cactustwirly has made here, that if you didn't have the 100mph HEx units it wouldn't vacate paths for the same number of 125 mph units. Westwards, anyway.

What about eastwards? What emerges seems to be that there an allowance built into the timetable for HST's to allow for delays if an HEX train comes out of Heathrow in front. How much does that matter?

The argument about more paths for non-airport travellers is very different today from what it was 24 months ago. Then, the main alternative to HSTs were 5-car trains on Heathrow Connect and class 165/166 on other GWR services. How many of them were more than six cars? Now there are 8-car class 387s and soon there will be 9-car class 345s.

I use HEx a few times a year. I've always been able to book in advance and pay a lot less than the full fare. Getting from Waterloo to Paddington with a large case, starting at 4.30 pm isn't enjoyable, but getting the Piccadilly would be worse. Coming back I want to get to London as quickly as I can because my evening train service from Waterloo is hourly and HEX is the quickest option. It has a loo as well.

I agree that Crossrail will make a difference. It will definitely be quicker than the Piccadilly Line. It will probably be less crowded too, as the trains will be a lot bigger.

ChilternTurbo · 3 Feb 2018

I usually have my HEX ticket paid for by work but I'll still use it when travelling for leisure. Air travel and airports are tedious enough these days and I'm happy to pay a premium for a quicker and more comfortable journey to and from LHR...

Ianno87 · 3 Feb 2018

Non Multi said:
Getting between King's X (or Euston) and Heathrow using the Elizabeth Line will still require a change at Tottenham Ct Rd or Farringdon. So there's going to be crowds, lifts and long walks whatever you decide to use.

Although if you're on one of the Thameslink GN routes to Peterborough/Cambridge (or, equally, MML south of Bedford), you'll have a direct train to Farringdon, change, then direct Lizzie to Heathrow.

The Ham · 3 Feb 2018

Add things stand now there's enough market for HEX, however (as others have highlighted) after Crossrail it will reduce a bit, after the Western Approach becomes operational then it's likely to fall further and finally after the Southern Approach is opened (it it happens, which personally I hope it fits) it is likely to fall yet further.

However, given that presumably usage had increased, it for still be that a few years after those events decrease passenger numbers that growth then brings passenger numbers back to where they were before the change. As such chances are they'll be demand for HEX.

edwin_m · 3 Feb 2018

Travelling to/from Heathrow via Kings Cross multiple times a few years ago I concluded that with the faff of changing at Paddington the Piccadilly Line was not much slower and a lot cheaper. May be slightly better now inbound, as you don't have to toss a coin to decide which sub-surface station to go to at Paddington and come away with the nagging feeling you would have been quicker going to the other one.

rs101 · 3 Feb 2018

ChilternTurbo said:
I usually have my HEX ticket paid for by work but I'll still use it when travelling for leisure. Air travel and airports are tedious enough these days and I'm happy to pay a premium for a quicker and more comfortable journey to and from LHR...

Same here. I'm actually sitting on the 21:40 now, waiting for it to depart Paddington.

It's a chance to relax after a disrupted journey from Manningtree...
Had expected a bus from Ingatestone to Newbury Park, but then the Manningtree to Colchester track was closed due to a pedestrian incident.
So got to Manningtree at 16:45 and made it to Paddington at 20:40! Paying a little extra for space, comfort and the chance to unwind a little is worth it.

johnnychips · 3 Feb 2018

This is a really interesting thread, and it’s nice to see a lot of reasoned arguments on both sides. I used Hex once when E* was cancelled because of snow, so I had to book a flight from Brussels very quickly, and I just couldn’t face the Piccadilly line. Very impressed despite £26. Will the Crossrail trains have luggage capacity?

Bromley boy · 3 Feb 2018

coppercapped said:
Not all of whom are going to Liverpool Street or the Docklands. Several large US corporations have offices in or near Reading - Microsoft, Verizon, Pepsico and Oracle for starters. Other destinations are available.

Do people flying into Heathrow with Reading or the M4 corridor as their ultimate destination take HEX? More likely to take a car direct from the airport, I’d have thought.

It’s not just financial services. It’s law firms, consultancies, prof services firms, in addition to the banks, asset managers, insurance companies. Most of whom are clustered around the city/London Bridge and the wharf. These businesses together must account for a significant % of business class travel into London. Not all, by any means, but a significant percentage.

coppercapped said:
I would just let the situation evolve - HEx's traffic may fall because of Crossrail, on the other hand it might increase with the general increase in air travel and the emergence of other commercial and financial areas in and around London. It is the job of HEx's managers to decide on its approach to changing circumstances - regardless of opinions posted here.

No argument from me on this - as you say it should be a commercial decision based on usage. To be clear I have absolutely no bias against users of HEX as some may on this thread.

But in answer to the thread title, I can also see the wider consideration that if scarcely available paths are being taken up by lightly loaded trains, that is something that needs to be reviewed.

coppercapped said:
And this myth about not much going on at Paddington, or it being out in the sticks, is nonsense. It's been in business since 1838 and the main train shed has been there since 1854. Traffic levels have always seemed to be satisfactory...

But there are relatively few large businesses with offices in Paddington - Gazprom? Which others? Of course it’s a major station but it’s situated in Bayswater/Maida-Vale, mostly residential areas, a pain to get to from most locations in central London.

BluePenguin · 3 Feb 2018

Bromley boy said:
Do people flying into Heathrow with Reading or the M4 corridor as their ultimate destination take HEX? More likely to take a car direct from the airport, I’d have thought.

It’s not just financial services. It’s law firms, consultancies, prof services firms, in addition to the banks, asset managers, insurance companies. Most of whom are clustered around the city/London Bridge and the wharf. These businesses together must account for a significant % of business class travel into London. Not all, by any means, but a significant percentage.

No argument from me on this - as you say it should be a commercial decision based on usage. To be clear I have absolutely no bias against users of HEX as some may on this thread.

But in answer to the thread title, I can also see the wider consideration that if scarcely available paths are being taken up by lightly loaded trains, that is something that needs to be reviewed.

But there are relatively few large businesses with offices in Paddington - Gazprom? Which others? Of course it’s a major station but it’s situated in Bayswater/Maida-Vale, mostly residential areas, a pain to get to from most locations in central London.

Paddington is way out of the way from where most people need to go. I certainly don't want or need to go to the West of London and definitely wouldn't pay a fortune to get there faster. The HEX going there quickly does not make Heathrow anymore well placed or attractive.

matt_world2004 · 4 Feb 2018

Reading the hex contract , it lists the expiry date of [5-10 years] after the commencement of the contract (7th June 2005 ) . however several revisions have been made since then so I dont know weather the revisions change the expiry date or not.

The Ham · 4 Feb 2018

Bromley boy said:
Do people flying into Heathrow with Reading or the M4 corridor as their ultimate destination take HEX? More likely to take a car direct from the airport, I’d have thought.

It’s not just financial services. It’s law firms, consultancies, prof services firms, in addition to the banks, asset managers, insurance companies. Most of whom are clustered around the city/London Bridge and the wharf. These businesses together must account for a significant % of business class travel into London. Not all, by any means, but a significant percentage.

No argument from me on this - as you say it should be a commercial decision based on usage. To be clear I have absolutely no bias against users of HEX as some may on this thread.

But in answer to the thread title, I can also see the wider consideration that if scarcely available paths are being taken up by lightly loaded trains, that is something that needs to be reviewed.

I would suggest that most people from Reading would consider a car over going into Paddington and back, however that's likely to change after the Western Approach is built when the train will stay to look very attractive.

Which leads to the question, if HEX survives Crossrail, could it were up Reading as a future market after the opening of the Western Approach if it's only Crossrail trains (i.e. slower services) which are using it?

With regards to capacity, I would look at it another way around. Given that we've got a very busy 4 track line with an equally busy line fairly parallel in the form of the SWML is it not time to look at the possibility of a new line to provide extra capacity?

If you could build a line that allowed the longer distance services (i.e. Weymouth, Southampton, Salisbury, Exeter, Plymouth) to join a line (maybe somewhere south of Reading picking up the B&H services and some services from the SWML and WofE line) before running into London. If journey times were broadly comparable then most people would mind a change in where they ended up in London

By doing so it could free up more paths into Paddington and Waterloo allowing more frequent services from both those places which benefit from the new line and all the places that remain using the existing lines.

LNW-GW Joint · 4 Feb 2018

matt_world2004 said:
Reading the hex contract , it lists the expiry date of [5-10 years] after the commencement of the contract (7th June 2005 ) . however several revisions have been made since then so I dont know weather the revisions change the expiry date or not.

I thought the debate at the moment is about Heathrow's 3rd runway and all the infrastructure associated with it, including rail access from the west (and south west).
I'd have thought the DfT and HAL would want an enlarged agreement about Heathrow rail access, not to cancel the current one saying "no room".
They have finally solved the argument about Crossrail access charges (with HAL losing its case for higher charges).

matt_world2004 · 4 Feb 2018

LNW-GW Joint said:
I thought the debate at the moment is about Heathrow's 3rd runway and all the infrastructure associated with it, including rail access from the west (and south west).
I'd have thought the DfT and HAL would want an enlarged agreement about Heathrow rail access, not to cancel the current one saying "no room".
They have finally solved the argument about Crossrail access charges (with HAL losing its case for higher charges).

Thing is regardless of the thoughts about the heathrow express. There is currently no justification in increasing the frequency of services from paddington to Heathrow Airport when an average Hex loadings are 1/3 of seated capacity.Crossrail will increase the frequency of services to Heathrow by 75% and more than double passenger capacity on the line. It would he much better for the extra 4tph Crossrail trains to go to reading and maidenhead than heathrow.

While we are aware the Hex pricing structure on the route has sepressed demand considerably . it would have had to have supress demand to about 1/10th of what it was for the Crossrail frequencies on the line to make sense and I am saying that as someone who will benefit hugely by the 6tph Heathrow service.

TLDR: based on hex loadings I cannot see the justification for 6tph Crossrail to heathrow even if demand has been suppressed by hex pricing.

HowardGWR · 4 Feb 2018

I find it difficult to believe that, at present, many pax from the west will travel into Pad and then back out again, expensively, to Heathrow with HEx. As nearly all up trains stop at Reading, surely the coach connection is preferable and quicker? Same at Woking.

Taunton · 4 Feb 2018

I go through Heathrow regularly, continuing by a number of means but hardly ever by the HEx, which is very poor value. It's especially true if you are continuing elsewhere by Tube anyway. A further factor is the Piccadilly always seems to come in a minute or two, whereas with the HEx being every 15 minutes, in those 15 minutes of waiting you could be a fair way inwards. The Piccadilly connects to the tube home, Paddington does not, so requires two transfers. If you are at Terminal 4 you need a further transfer to get on the HEx anyway, whereas the Piccadilly is direct. It all adds up.

Andrewlong · 4 Feb 2018

I suspect for many tourists, HEX is their choice as the alternatives are not as well plugged. When I came back from Seville on Easyjet, the airline mentioned getting to centre of a London by Gatwick Express even though other cheaper services are available. I suspect other airlines do the equivalent thing when flying into Heathrow.

Also if you rock up to Paddington, finding ticket booth and signage for the HEX is really easy. You will need to seek out the Heathrow Connect service. Not easy if you are unfamiliar with Paddington and how to get to Heathrow.

ainsworth74 · 4 Feb 2018

Taunton said:
I go through Heathrow regularly, continuing by a number of means but hardly ever by the HEx, which is very poor value. It's especially true if you are continuing elsewhere by Tube anyway. A further factor is the Piccadilly always seems to come in a minute or two, whereas with the HEx being every 15 minutes, in those 15 minutes of waiting you could be a fair way inwards. The Piccadilly connects to the tube home, Paddington does not, so requires two transfers. If you are at Terminal 4 you need a further transfer to get on the HEx anyway, whereas the Piccadilly is direct. It all adds up.

Will your calculus change when Crossrail is there? 6tph and a host of connections options?

NotATrainspott · 4 Feb 2018

Swapping out the 100mph units for 110 or 125mph ones is unlikely to make a difference. The time saving would only come about between the point where the HEx units have reached 100mph, and when they need to start slowing down again for the approach to Paddington. The journey time saving would be only a few seconds at most since acceleration above 100mph is slow, and the faster you run, the faster you reach the point where you need to slow down. A more effective way of reducing the impact would be to have a faster accelerating train still limited to 100mph.

jdxn · 4 Feb 2018

yorkie said:
It is very true that, westbound at least, the pathing is designed in such a way there is no waste of capacity.
The problem is eastbound; the reality is that you are never going to get every train that has come from far flung places to appear at Airport Junction at precisely the right time, and it is a waste of energy and causes further delay to hundreds of passengers to have to slam on the brakes because Heathrow Express seems to get priority.

I would disagree about eastbound. The timetable works. Almost without exception the eastbound services have stopped at Reading. So they shouldn't arrive early. If a HST arrives a couple of mins early at Airport Junc why should a Hex be delayed a couple of minutes by something that is preventable? The bigger problem are late running GW trains and again why should HEX customers suffer because another TOC is late? A look at RTT will tell you that unless there has been some significant disruption the HEX's leave the airport on time.
Of course one of the big issues is HEX 2min PPM!

Parallel · 4 Feb 2018

HowardGWR said:
I find it difficult to believe that, at present, many pax from the west will travel into Pad and then back out again, expensively, to Heathrow with HEx. As nearly all up trains stop at Reading, surely the coach connection is preferable and quicker? Same at Woking.

I’m not sure but my mum travelled to Heathrow by train last month from Trowbridge. She changed at Westbury and London Paddington as that was permitted on the ticket, and she didn’t want to take bulky luggage on the coach link between Reading and Heathrow. So people from the west must change at Paddington and use the HEX!

Mikey C · 4 Feb 2018

I can see Crossrail making a significant dent in HEX loadings, due to the convenience of going to Central London on one train. Even if there is a surcharge, being able to use Oyster/Contactless on Crossrail will also encourage use.

Currently many people take a taxi to and from Paddington for their onward journeys, though even this is less convenient than it used to be, as the new Paddington taxi rank is a lot further away than the old one.

coppercapped · 4 Feb 2018

BluePenguin said:
Paddington is way out of the way from where most people need to go. I certainly don't want or need to go to the West of London and definitely wouldn't pay a fortune to get there faster. The HEX going there quickly does not make Heathrow anymore well placed or attractive.

If one is travelling to London from any distance, privately or on business, it is very unlikely that one's destination will be close to the station at which the train ends its journey. This is true whichever terminus one selects - Victoria, Waterloo (which is, after all, on the wrong side of the river...

), Euston and so on. Almost all journeys will require an additional onward sector, whether by bus, taxi, Tube or rickshaw.

This never ending mantra that 'nobody wants to go to Paddington' is true for any of the terminal stations in London. It is also true for any terminal station in any city on the planet.

matt_world2004 said:
Reading the hex contract , it lists the expiry date of [5-10 years] after the commencement of the contract (7th June 2005 ) . however several revisions have been made since then so I dont know weather the revisions change the expiry date or not.

I wasn't aware that the details of the contract were in the public realm. Could you please post a link?

coppercapped · 4 Feb 2018

Parallel said:
I’m not sure but my mum travelled to Heathrow by train last month from Trowbridge. She changed at Westbury and London Paddington as that was permitted on the ticket, and she didn’t want to take bulky luggage on the coach link between Reading and Heathrow. So people from the west must change at Paddington and use the HEX!

Why ever not? There are lifts between all the platforms and the RailAir lounge at Reading and the drivers load the luggage into the underfloor holds of the coach for you. They also unload it at the Terminal of your choice at Heathrow. It's a doddle!

4-SUB 4732 · 4 Feb 2018

Heathrow Express is a vast waste of paths. I sorely hope it ceases to exist when the West Rail Link opens.

The reason I say that is that if you consider these new trains running from Paddington to Temple Meads via Parkway every 30 minutes will have limited stops and the Bath route will always be vastly busier. What if that half-hourly service ran via Heathrow then back out the other side? Yes, journey times would increase but connectivity would be fantastic. Reading, Swindon, Bristol Parkway and Temple Meads having a fast train every 30 minutes to the Airport; with 'one change' journey opportunities to Oxford, Banbury, Leamington, Gloucester, Cheltenham, Newport, Cardiff, Swansea, Weston-super-mare, Bath and such.

The other half-hourly path (aka to make up to 15 minutes) should be 8 car 387s and go to Newbury. It could stop at Slough, Maidenhead, Reading, Theale Parkway (if that is developed) and stations down to Newbury where the wires will obviously stop.

matt_world2004 · 4 Feb 2018

coppercapped said:
I wasn't aware that the details of the contract were in the public realm. Could you please post a link?

For some reason google is fuzzing the track access agreement on the heathrow website but if you google Heathrow Express track access agreement and click on the pdf file on the heathrow domain it will come up
Or

http://orr.gov.uk/rail/access-to-the-network/track-access/consolidated-agreements

They both appear to be slightly different agreements however and the date is redacted on the Orr site but not on the heathrow site.

cactustwirly · 4 Feb 2018

4-SUB 4732 said:
Heathrow Express is a vast waste of paths. I sorely hope it ceases to exist when the West Rail Link opens.

The reason I say that is that if you consider these new trains running from Paddington to Temple Meads via Parkway every 30 minutes will have limited stops and the Bath route will always be vastly busier. What if that half-hourly service ran via Heathrow then back out the other side? Yes, journey times would increase but connectivity would be fantastic. Reading, Swindon, Bristol Parkway and Temple Meads having a fast train every 30 minutes to the Airport; with 'one change' journey opportunities to Oxford, Banbury, Leamington, Gloucester, Cheltenham, Newport, Cardiff, Swansea, Weston-super-mare, Bath and such.

The other half-hourly path (aka to make up to 15 minutes) should be 8 car 387s and go to Newbury. It could stop at Slough, Maidenhead, Reading, Theale Parkway (if that is developed) and stations down to Newbury where the wires will obviously stop.

It could work, but for your Newbury service, the elephant in the room is capacity.
The paths already exist for a fast service to Maidenhead, and 06 & 38 past the hour that are utilised during the peaks.
For your suggested service you would have to cross over to the reliefs at Dolphin Jct, there may not be enough capacity on the reliefs post Crossrail.
And of course, other services could catch up with it before Slough which would reduce capacity.

For your suggested Bristol service, I think the limitation would be capacity through Reading. It could also catch up with slower services on the mains as well.

edwin_m · 4 Feb 2018

coppercapped said:
If one is travelling to London from any distance, privately or on business, it is very unlikely that one's destination will be close to the station at which the train ends its journey. This is true whichever terminus one selects - Victoria, Waterloo (which is, after all, on the wrong side of the river... ), Euston and so on. Almost all journeys will require an additional onward sector, whether by bus, taxi, Tube or rickshaw.

This never ending mantra that 'nobody wants to go to Paddington' is true for any of the terminal stations in London. It is also true for any terminal station in any city on the planet.

However, as well as Paddington, Crossrail gives a choice of six other central London stations (defining Central London as extending to Canary Wharf) by direct train, so far better access than any single terminus.

Is Heathrow Express a good use of resources?

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