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Virgin Trains East Coast franchise to end 24 June 2018 and is temporarily re-nationalised

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Bletchleyite

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Hmmm

Oxenholme to London Off-Peak Return £103
Darlington to London Off-Peak Return £215.50

To understand that one you have to understand the different walk-up pricing models operated by VTWC and GNER as-was. VTWC decided to abolish the SuperSaver, so in doing so cut the Saver fare (which became the Off Peak) to roughly the average of the two. It then pursued "shoulder peak" revenue purely using Advances.

GNER had a different tack, which was to introduce a walk-up "Business Saver" fare. The Saver then gained rather more swingeing restrictions than the VTWC version, while the Business Saver was much less restricted. The Saver became the Super Off-Peak, and the Business Saver became the Off-Peak. It remains the case that the Off Peak on the ECML is far less restricted than on the WCML.

Of course people compare them like for like, but they aren't - this comparison is an issue introduced by the so-called fares simplification.

For balance, the SSR Darlington-London, slightly more restricted than the VTWC ticket (but not much more), is £131.50. Still a little pricey, but not ridiculously so.
 
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  • Franchises tendered to be run on behalf of the state on a fixed price basis (which I think is what happens on London Underground/Overground and Scotrail?)
Indeed. Contract out ICEC as a concession instead of this fiasco happening again and again.
 

Starmill

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Of course people compare them like for like, but they aren't - this comparison is an issue introduced by the so-called fares simplification.
Except that they are like for like. Why do you think I made the comparison?
The only difference is that the more expensive ticket is more restricted in the evening. By rights it should be cheaper. In reality, it's more than double the price. Why?
 

tbwbear

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To understand that one you have to understand the different walk-up pricing models operated by VTWC and GNER as-was. VTWC decided to abolish the SuperSaver, so in doing so cut the Saver fare (which became the Off Peak) to roughly the average of the two. It then pursued "shoulder peak" revenue purely using Advances.

GNER had a different tack, which was to introduce a walk-up "Business Saver" fare. The Saver then gained rather more swingeing restrictions than the VTWC version, while the Business Saver was much less restricted. The Saver became the Super Off-Peak, and the Business Saver became the Off-Peak. It remains the case that the Off Peak on the ECML is far less restricted than on the WCML.

Of course people compare them like for like, but they aren't - this comparison is an issue introduced by the so-called fares simplification.

For balance, the SSR Darlington-London, slightly more restricted than the VTWC ticket (but not much more), is £131.50. Still a little pricey, but not ridiculously so.

Interesting stuff.

As neither Oxenholme nor Darlington have on-rail (direct service) competition to London, couldn't we conclude that the differences between fares from other destinations served by VTWC and VTEC have a lot of these historical factors behind them and are not just down to the fact that VTEC has more on-rail competition than VTWC ?
 

Bletchleyite

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Interesting stuff.

As neither Oxenholme nor Darlington have on-rail (direct service) competition to London, couldn't we conclude that the differences between fares from other destinations served by VTWC and VTEC have a lot of these historical factors behind them and are not just down to the fact that VTEC has more on-rail competition than VTWC ?

Yes, that is almost certainly the reason for most such discrepancies.
 

Bletchleyite

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Except that they are like for like. Why do you think I made the comparison?
The only difference is that the more expensive ticket is more restricted in the evening. By rights it should be cheaper. In reality, it's more than double the price. Why?

For the reason I told you - a totally different fares model operated by the two TOCs that operated the routes immediately after privatisation.

FWIW, the lack of evening restrictions on certain VTWC fares has nothing whatsoever to do with commercial will, it is because they are prohibited from having them as part of their franchise agreement (they have tried it on before by adding them but got caught out and had to remove them again). Furthermore, the Off Peaks are the regulated fares on VTWC, it's the Super Off Peaks that are regulated on VTEC, so VTWC can't increase that fare, while VTEC can.
 

SaveECRewards

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For me it's because the abolition of rewards was effectively a hidden price-rise. I wouldn't have minded if this was combined with a decrease in headline price on the route/times I was buying - but with VTEC the hidden price rise was accompanied by an overt one, as I explained in post 389.
VTEC had a number of 'hidden' price rises.
The new website also didn't offer the full range of tickets when it launched which meant in some circumstances you were not offered the cheapest available.
 

Starmill

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For the reason I told you - a totally different fares model operated by the two TOCs that operated the routes immediately after privatisation.

Yes that is indeed the explanation. That does not somehow mean that they are not a valid comparison. They are what they are. VTEC are free to cut fares to match those offered from Oxenholme.

FWIW, the lack of evening restrictions on certain VTWC fares has nothing whatsoever to do with commercial will, it is because they are prohibited from having them as part of their franchise agreement. Furthermore, the Off Peaks are the regulated fares on VTWC, it's the Super Off Peaks that are regulated on VTEC.
Exactly. Which is the solution I was advocating...
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes that is indeed the explanation. That does not somehow mean that they are not a valid comparison. They are what they are. VTEC are free to cut fares to match those offered from Oxenholme.

Why on earth would they do that? If regulation was abolished, it's rather more likely VTWC would increase them to the level of VTEC. At present, any increases to those fares are limited to RPI+2% or whatever it is.
 

Starmill

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As neither Oxenholme nor Darlington have on-rail (direct service) competition to London, couldn't we conclude that the differences between fares from other destinations served by VTWC and VTEC have a lot of these historical factors behind them and are not just down to the fact that VTEC has more on-rail competition than VTWC ?
Yes. Competition has a tiny influence by comparison with this and many other things.
 

Starmill

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Why on earth would they do that? If regulation was abolished, it's rather more likely VTWC would increase them to the level of VTEC. At present, any increases to those fares are limited to RPI+2% or whatever it is.
Naturally. That's my entire point.

For balance, the SSR Darlington-London, slightly more restricted than the VTWC ticket (but not much more)
It's 30% more and far, far more restricted. The difference is not small.

It remains the case that the Off Peak on the ECML is far less restricted than on the WCML.
You have not been keeping up with the times I am afraid. The inverse is now true for most fares. VT priced tickets with the 2C restriction are still more restrictive than the East Coast Off-Peak, but only slightly.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Competition is within the market is a folly.

I'm don't entirely agree, though I know where you're coming from. When TOCs engage in silly 10p-less games it's actively harmful to customers. But where there is genuine competition, such as London-Birmingham/Oxford and London-Brighton, it works better for customers. We've seen that on the BML when competition ended: fares skyrocket, service quality nosedives.
 

Tetchytyke

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Indeed. Contract out ICEC as a concession instead of this fiasco happening again and again.

Worked well at Southern!

Run it in-house, cut out the middleman, and get on with the business of running a profitable railway line profitably.
 

whhistle

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That's not true as Asda most certainly do.
They reward their customer loyalty by paying 1% cashback on items bought with an Asda credit card in their stores.
Didn't realise that... I thought they stopped this with petrol years ago, so assumed they didn't do anything in store.
Although hard push to call it a "reward" - 1%...



I don't know how much you spend annually on your phone contract, but if it's several thousand pounds I'm going to go ahead and suggest you may be being ripped off.
I'm at the market rate for sim only.
In fact, I wasn't even a customer of O2 when using their Priority Moments app, so perhaps I don't have much right to be sad about it.
Like the EC Rewards, it was good while it lasted but some people seem to think rewards are more of a right than a gold rush derby.[/QUOTE]



Asda DO reward customers - their prices are lower that their competitors...
Low prices isn't a "reward".
Otherwise I could say I am being rewarded every time I shop in most places :P
For some though, Nectar points work quite well.
If you shop in places that do it. But I think the world has grown on from points based rewards. In the 90s, yes - there were many schemes and many companies got together, but I'm certain Nectar joined the party late, and not many companies signed up. Sainsbury's? Argos? Homebase? Basically, the same parent company.
Like the West Coast, Nectar is easy to manage because the TOC doesn't do much with it. It's like out-sourcing catering, or parking facilities. That seems to be the current trend with companies these days. Whether the set fee makes fincial matters easier to manage, or the lack of responsibility from the company is the driver, I don't know.



It's a commercial decision whether you do a frequent traveller scheme or not. But don't act surprised if your frequent travellers decide to be a bit less frequent if there's nothing in it for them.
Very true.
Perhaps there is a large amount of choice on the East Coast - but is there really?
From Peterborough to London, is there REALLY a choice? Yes, if you want to spend your day travelling on slow trains.
I would have thought the majority of people who use trains, do so because there is no real viable alternative, and thus rewarding for repeat custom is a bit of a moot point.
For example, I travelled to America using one airline. They had some sort of reward points, but I am unlikely to use their airline again in the near future so it's not really a tangable reward; I certainly don't feel like I can use the reward.
 

neilm

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General Zod

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I have some e-vouchers in my VTEC online account and they are valid until Dec 2018. Will these expire if there is a change in franchisee within the next few months ?
 

SaveECRewards

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Didn't realise that... I thought they stopped this with petrol years ago, so assumed they didn't do anything in store.
Although hard push to call it a "reward" - 1%...
2 Nectar points per £ is also a pathetic 1% reward as Nectar points face value is 0.5p

Like the EC Rewards, it was good while it lasted but some people seem to think rewards are more of a right than a gold rush derby.

It's not a right, but like catering it's something that made East Coast BETTER than other TOCs such as VTWC, Greater Anglia, etc.

So when 'Virgin' come along and take away something that made EC better then of course passengers are going to be annoyed, particularly when we also lost the online discount and people are saying availability of the cheaper fares seems a lot more scarce.

VTEC was promoted by the government as being able to offer something to the passenger more than what EC could. In the end we're now paying more and getting less.

...
For some though, Nectar points work quite well.
There's no scenario where a rail traveller would be better off with Nectar than East Coast rewards. Even if you only spent £50 in two years you'd still be better off with EC Rewards. (That £50 would get you 50 points which would be worth a one day lounge pass or free WiFi, with Nectar it would be worth 50p, but ONLY if you had enough points from other sources to get it up to £2.50).
If you shop in places that do it. But I think the world has grown on from points based rewards. In the 90s, yes - there were many schemes and many companies got together, but I'm certain Nectar joined the party late, and not many companies signed up. Sainsbury's? Argos? Homebase? Basically, the same parent company.
Actually Sainsbury's and Argos had nothing to do with each other when Nectar started. Argos got involved as a spending partner (you couldn't earn at the beginning due to a previous partnership with BP) Homebase pulled out of Nectar when the Aussies bought it, but Homebase was late to the party and only joined Nectar after it was sold by Sainsbury's.

The original Nectar partners were Sainsbury's, BP, Debenhams and Barclaycard. Debenhams and Barclaycard had the sense to get out of the scheme as soon as their contract allowed.

As for people moving on from points based loyalty schemes it's probably poor schemes like Nectar that has lowered people's opinion of their value. Airline schemes are still popular.

Like the West Coast, Nectar is easy to manage because the TOC doesn't do much with it. It's like out-sourcing catering, or parking facilities. That seems to be the current trend with companies these days. Whether the set fee makes fincial matters easier to manage, or the lack of responsibility from the company is the driver, I don't know.

Despite this both VTEC and VTWC employ a full time loyalty manager (each franchise has their own) and VTEC were advertising for an assistant to the loyalty manager last summer! What they do I don't know. There's ways they could improve the scheme even if they have to stick with Nectar by contract.


Perhaps there is a large amount of choice on the East Coast - but is there really?
From Peterborough to London, is there REALLY a choice? Yes, if you want to spend your day travelling on slow trains.
I would have thought the majority of people who use trains, do so because there is no real viable alternative, and thus rewarding for repeat custom is a bit of a moot point.
For commuters the choice is limited, you either pay for speed or get up earlier and save a bit using Great Northern. Commuters are captive, that's pretty much why VTEC were slow to even give them a small amount of Nectar points (you can get them if you buy your season ticket online).

However as mentioned a lot already there's a lot of DISCRETIONARY spend. Leisure trips (why pick a weekend at an East Coast destination rather than overseas or elsewhere in the UK) and trips that can be done by driving or flying.

I like to use my standard class Edinburgh to London frequent business traveller. Choose to fly BA and you will start to earn status that gives you benefits such as lounge access (which includes complimentary food and drinks, including alcohol) and fast track or travel with VTEC and you'll get a few pence worth of Nectar points and have no lounge access. The points you get with BA can then be used for trips anywhere in the world or on upgrades.

For example, I travelled to America using one airline. They had some sort of reward points, but I am unlikely to use their airline again in the near future so it's not really a tangable reward; I certainly don't feel like I can use the reward.

Well if you travel once it's not loyalty is it? However, airlines have alliances and they allow you to get any benefits you've earned with one airline on their partner airlines as well.

So say if you were this regular business traveller as mentioned above. You fly BA between Edinburgh and London regularly. You could then take advantage of the points you earn or any status benefits such as lounge access when you fly to the US. If you want to fly a route British Airways don't operate you'd get the same benefits booking on their partner American Airlines.

However, even if you choose Flying Club rather than Nectar on VTEC there's no way to earn status benefits on VTEC so there's no way to get benefits such as lounge access. Wouldn't it be nice if you were a regular VTEC traveller to get lounge access on Virgin Atlantic or their partners Delta, KLM and Air France?

This means that the fact business travellers (or other regular travellers) flying between Edinburgh to London can earn real benefits that not only can be used on their business flights domestically but also on any international travel they make either for business or leisure. If you're boarding a busy A380 on an 8+ hour flight it's nice to be able to start the trip with lounge access and then board using fast track.

So real benefits for the most frequent travellers. VTEC seem to forget about their high value customers and seem to be targeting the occasional traveller that's travels so rarely they're over the moon with a first class seat even if the catering is missing and will post loads of selfies with 'first class' on the seat clearly visible.
 

Tetchytyke

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Perhaps there is a large amount of choice on the East Coast - but is there really?

From Scotland, the big competition is with British Airways, who offer a frequent flier scheme which (eventually) gives you free access to their lounge at Heathrow, and EasyJet, who also reward frequent fliers.

There is a reason why East Coast directly targeted their marketing at people who usually flew from Scotland to London.

From Newcastle again British Airways are competing more- I've certainly switched a chunk of my leisure travel to the plane- and the flights are fuller than they were.

I would have thought the majority of people who use trains, do so because there is no real viable alternative, and thus rewarding for repeat custom is a bit of a moot point.

For example, I travelled to America using one airline. They had some sort of reward points, but I am unlikely to use their airline again in the near future so it's not really a tangable reward; I certainly don't feel like I can use the reward.

Frequent flier rewards are targeted at, well, frequent fliers. The business people travelling business class are extraordinarily profitable for airlines. Keeping them sweet is an essential part of the business.

Airlines don't target their frequent flier schemes at the guy who flies once a year in economy because they're not the profit generators.

East Coast's reward scheme rewarded the big spenders. The more you spent, and the more you spent in first class, the more you got back.

VTEC binned it and switched it to Nectar points, which are a) largely worthless and b) largely accrued by spending in other businesses. My local supermarket is Sainsbury's so, when I redeem Nectar points against VTEC travel, most of those Nectar points have been generated away from VTEC. It doesn't reward me for spending my money with VTEC.

As for Seatfrog, well, it just cheapens and demeans the first class product; it is targeted at cheap upgrades for the one-off leisure traveller rather than the business traveller who's in first class every week.

It's all a commercial decision for VTEC to make for themselves, but if it were my business, I wouldn't be targeting the one-off traveller at the expense of the business people who are my bread and butter.

VTEC clearly thought that their captive business market was captive, and took them for granted. It turns out that the captive market wasn't as captive as they thought it was. British Airways clearly got a similar sense too, as they are now *very* competitive on price with the train from the north, even on the short hops from Leeds. The aggressive rinsing of the business traveller affected my own business travel, with my (charitable sector) employer now preferring me to travel the night before and stay in a Premier Inn as it is cheaper for them. So now I'm far more likely to be on the 1800-ish Heathrow flight the night before than I am on the morning Flying Scotsman. My own (anecdotal) experience is that I'm not alone. And the Avios are about as useful as Nectar points.
 

SaveECRewards

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I have some e-vouchers in my VTEC online account and they are valid until Dec 2018. Will these expire if there is a change in franchisee within the next few months ?

They shouldn't do. The next franchisee should take over any obligations. In fact before VTEC took over we suggested to people that they buy East Coast eVouchers (as they used to earn Rewards points) so they could get the points now and then book their tickets later.

That said the VTEC website is a buggy thing, a lot of people had issues when they tried to move eVouchers over to the new site, therefore I'd make sure you take some screenshots of your eVoucher balance if they decide to make any changes to the website as if the new operator decides to dump this booking engine there may be issues migrating over and you want to be sure you don't lose out.
 

SaveECRewards

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From Scotland, the big competition is with British Airways, who offer a frequent flier scheme which (eventually) gives you free access to their lounge at Heathrow, and EasyJet, who also reward frequent fliers.
When thinking of loyalty schemes it's easy to forget easyJet as their selling point is low prices (so a bit like Asda in the supermarket comparison) but they do provide benefits to their frequent travellers, not lounge access (as they don't have any) but they offer benefits such as free flight changes on non-flexible tickets to those high spenders who qualify for their 'flight club'. There's also easyJet plus, a membership scheme that's open to anyone but has particular value to frequent flyers by giving them a bunch of benefits like free selection of extra legroom seats, priority boarding, etc.

It's not as generous as what BA can give, but they started business by appealing to the price conscious and have evolved to offer extra perks for those who appreciate them.

There is a reason why East Coast directly targeted their marketing at people who usually flew from Scotland to London.

From Newcastle again British Airways are competing more- I've certainly switched a chunk of my leisure travel to the plane- and the flights are fuller than they were.
I can confirm that. Even Club Europe (business class), something that BA never used to offer on domestic flights, is usually pretty busy. I even met one of the former VTEC senior team (had left VTEC a month or so before) in Club Europe on a NCL-LHR flight.

Although the food isn't as substantial as the train it's sufficient for a 50 minute flight and in Club Europe you generally don't have to worry about your glass being empty. For those travelling north there's a full selection of hot food in the London lounges, in the regional lounges it's usually sandwiches and soup in the lounge.

The main thing is I've only ever once boarded a plane and found out there was no food, that was because of terrible weather messing up the schedules. The #CateringLottery on VTEC meant I had to go a number of times without the advertised catering, VTEC just hide behind 'complimentary, subject to availability', BA gave me 5000 Avios for the inconvenience.

Also BA doesn't have the concept of a weekend offer. If you fly on a Sunday in Club Europe you get the same food and drink (alcohol includes champagne and spirits) as you would any other day of the week!

East Coast's reward scheme rewarded the big spenders. The more you spent, and the more you spent in first class, the more you got back.
Although the best rewards were certainly for the big spenders (and giving 1.5 points per pound for first class meant they got to the rewards quicker) it was also an excellent scheme for the low and middle spenders which is what made the scheme so great. The previous loyalty schemes (GNERtime and NXEC escape) were truly only for the high value customers.

As the lowest reward was just 50 points (lounge access or WiFi) it meant even the lowest spenders got something before their points expired after 2 years. If a passenger spends less than £50 in 2 years they're really not worth bothering with!
VTEC binned it and switched it to Nectar points, which are a) largely worthless and b) largely accrued by spending in other businesses. My local supermarket is Sainsbury's so, when I redeem Nectar points against VTEC travel, most of those Nectar points have been generated away from VTEC. It doesn't reward me for spending my money with VTEC.
As headforpoints.com has pointed out it's really not worth the hassle redeeming for VTEC. The points are only worth base value (0.5p per point) and the process for redeeming is a pain. If you shop in Sainsbury's it makes more sense to just redeem in store (easier process) and then put the money you saved in store towards the train tickets.

As for Seatfrog, well, it just cheapens and demeans the first class product; it is targeted at cheap upgrades for the one-off leisure traveller rather than the business traveller who's in first class every week.
Agreed! But don't the VTEC first class seats look so good in selfies, that seems to be all they care about!
It's all a commercial decision for VTEC to make for themselves, but if it were my business, I wouldn't be targeting the one-off traveller at the expense of the business people who are my bread and butter.
East Coast Rewards targeted users at all levels of the spending scale. You do need the occasional travellers too, but you don't want to lose people who spend many thousands a year. One thing you don't want to do is get people in the mindset that first class is something that's only worth a fiver extra which is what Seatfrog can end up doing.
VTEC clearly thought that their captive business market was captive, and took them for granted.
Did they think? Nectar was chosen when they put in the bid, did the consultants that put together the bid even look at East Coast Rewards or did they just look at west coast and think that the same formula would work on the east. The fact is ECML high spenders have had loyalty schemes since the GNER days and East Coast Rewards then expanded the reach of the scheme.
It turns out that the captive market wasn't as captive as they thought it was. British Airways clearly got a similar sense too, as they are now *very* competitive on price with the train from the north, even on the short hops from Leeds. The aggressive rinsing of the business traveller affected my own business travel, with my (charitable sector) employer now preferring me to travel the night before and stay in a Premier Inn as it is cheaper for them. So now I'm far more likely to be on the 1800-ish Heathrow flight the night before than I am on the morning Flying Scotsman.
Although I love breakfast on the train my personal preference is to travel night before to avoid a too early start so that would suit me. I'm guessing with East Coast Rewards your employer was happy paying more for the train as they could then offset it with some free trips.

My own (anecdotal) experience is that I'm not alone. And the Avios are about as useful as Nectar points.

Is that a typo or do you just have no use for Avios? (For anyone else reading this Avios are the points you can spend on flights, etc. It's separate from the status that gets you lounge access, fast track, priority boarding, etc)

I find Avios very useful. Short notice shorthaul redemptions are the best use in my mind. They often open up seats a day or so before departure if there's any space left. It means I've had some excellent short notice weekend breaks and one time it helped me out in a family emergency when I needed to get back to Newcastle that day. The cash prices for the flights were high, too late for an advance train fare, but there was actually Avios availability on the last flight of the day (BA1338) which was ideal for me. I saved over £200 on that trip alone.
 

Bletchleyite

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The main purpose of loyalty schemes appears to me to be to reward employees for influencing their choice of travel paid for by their employer away from "the cheapest/quickest option for the required time of travel as appropriate". They have little to do with spending by occasional users nor those using low-priced off peak or Advance tickets.

I suspect that were these changed to be considered benefits in kind, which they in a way are, they would soon go away.

Regarding 1st, I think VTEC (and others) are rapidly realising that employers all over the place are ceasing to pay for it, certainly at full whack. Long-term I can only see its future being as a reasonably priced paid upgrade paid for by the employee, as well as shifting towards being a leisure product.
 

Chester1

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Perhaps the franchise could be split after failing 2 or 3 times? Maybe a small London to Scotland franchise until HS2 completion in 2033 and merging the rest with Great Northern (minus the Moorgate line and anything else that can be plausibly be handed to TfL). While such an entity would be nearly opperationally seperate it would have a much more diverse income stream. If the government continues with its East Coast Partnership plan then it would make sense for it to run as many of the services out of Kings Cross and not run into Scotland which would add the complication of devolution.
 
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SaveECRewards

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The main purpose of loyalty schemes appears to me to be to reward employees for influencing their choice of travel paid for by their employer away from "the cheapest/quickest option for the required time of travel as appropriate". They have little to do with spending by occasional users nor those using low-priced off peak or Advance tickets.

I've never denied that. There's many ways companies try and win over the business traveller:
East Coast introduced the Scottish Executive and West Yorkshire Executive tickets. These are standard class tickets to fit in with corporate travel policies but they come with a 'free' upgrade to first class in both directions.
Some people will pay more for the more comfortable option even if there's a cheaper or faster alternative.

Companies have to do what they can to win over the frequent business traveller as they will tend to be a good source of income.

We've been quite clear that most loyalty schemes have nowt to benefit the occasional user (EC Rewards was an exception to this as I've said, it had benefits for low and high value users)
I suspect that were these changed to be considered benefits in kind, which they in a way are, they would soon go away.

I think some countries do so but I've not heard the UK considering this.

My view is business travel often impacts on personal life whether it's spending nights away from home or having to travel early morning or late evening outside of your core working hours. Therefore I think when travelling I have every right to take advantage of things that make life easier for the frequent traveller. Unfortunately VTEC don't offer anything to make life easier for the frequent traveller.

Regarding 1st, I think VTEC (and others) are rapidly realising that employers all over the place are ceasing to pay for it, certainly at full whack. Long-term I can only see its future being as a reasonably priced paid upgrade paid for by the employee, as well as shifting towards being a leisure product.

The shift has already started, but there's still a decent number of people who travel for business and are allowed first class. They may be reducing in number but you don't want to kill them off quicker by making the competition (airlines) more attractive.

Personally I've had to fight to keep 1st class travel in my company. But when they require me to travel in my own time (and I try and make my personal train travel 1st class if it's on a service where there's a decent offering) they should be providing the level of comfort I'd normally provide myself when travelling. I don't get paid overtime when travelling for business outside work hours and I doubt many people do, so I think the onus is on the employer to treat employees well if they want them to travel.
 

bnm

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Isnt there another place to rant on about loyalty schemes on trains?

Can't we stick to discussion about the franchise as a whole?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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As I understand it, DfT is responsible for losses once the £165m parent guarantee is used up (written into the franchise agreement).
This is going to occur in the next few weeks - hence the review of how to manage the operation forward.
Clearly it will involve adjusting the premium payments and expansion plans.
Andrew Adonis tried to strip NX of its other franchises when it failed on NXEC, but discovered he couldn't do it legally.
NX even won c2c when it went up for renewal (but has since sold it to Trenitalia).
 

Chrism20

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I can confirm that. Even Club Europe (business class), something that BA never used to offer on domestic flights, is usually pretty busy. I even met one of the former VTEC senior team (had left VTEC a month or so before) in Club Europe on a NCL-LHR flight.

Club Europe was added by BA because several high profile corporate clients went spare at the fact their transiting club world passengers were being subjected to buy on board rather than being dished out complimentaries. If they had not generated as much revenue as they do Club Europe would have got nowhere near a domestic flight.

From what I’ve been told by the crew a huge majority of CE pax are transit, they can see this on their manifests.

From Newcastle again British Airways are competing more- I've certainly switched a chunk of my leisure travel to the plane- and the flights are fuller than they were.

Are they using smaller planes or cut the frequency as the CAA statistics for last year look like Newcastle to Heathrow last year was level or 1-2% down on 2016.

There is no doubt VTEC have lost leisure passengers, they have admitted as much themselves but wherever they have went is anyone’s guess but they certainly haven’t flown domestic from Newcastle as their total domestic passengers for the year rose by 3754.

It’s possible that the spend conscious passenger has just baulked at VTECs price gouging and stayed at home rather than switch modes.
 
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