Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

Hadders · 27 Feb 2018

collexions said:
As someone who works on the Thameslink Programme and the wider industry, can I ask why all the focus on Real Time Trains ''uploads'? The May 2018 timetable isn't established in its final draft until 14/03/18?

Train times are important for regular travellers. I often need to travel to Holborn Circus for work. Currently I get the a train into Kings Cross and walk from there which takes around 20 minutes. I usually arrive at my office at 0830.

From May I could get a direct train to Farringdon or City Thameslink and save the walk. But that would mean having to stand on a 700, and cost more.
Or I could get a direct service to Kings Cross (probably on a 365) and walk as now. But the times don't seem to work out for an 0830 arrival.
Or I could get the Thameslink service and get off at STP and walk but this will probably add 5 minutes to the walk.

It might seem trivial but these are important decisions for regular commuters. We really need to know what's happening now that there are less than 3 months to go.

RailUK Forums

Failed Unit · 27 Feb 2018

Hadders said:
Train times are important for regular travellers. I often need to travel to Holborn Circus for work. Currently I get the a train into Kings Cross and walk from there which takes around 20 minutes. I usually arrive at my office at 0830.

From May I could get a direct train to Farringdon or City Thameslink and save the walk. But that would mean having to stand on a 700, and cost more.
Or I could get a direct service to Kings Cross (probably on a 365) and walk as now. But the times don't seem to work out for an 0830 arrival.
Or I could get the Thameslink service and get off at STP and walk but this will probably add 5 minutes to the walk.

It might seem trivial but these are important decisions for regular commuters. We really need to know what's happening now that there are less than 3 months to go.

The other thing to consider is that East Coast have started taking AP bookings. I would like to book a journey in June. I can buy my East Coast AP - I am not because I don't know if I can connect into it with a sensible time. With the loss of the direct train to Peterborough (and shocking connection at Stevenage in the draft) - I suspect I will be driving to Luton and using EasyJet (something that certain posters on this forum think is a good thing as more seats on the railway for others). Every day of delay makes EasyJet more attractive.

gingerheid · 27 Feb 2018

collexions said:
As someone who works on the Thameslink Programme and the wider industry, can I ask why all the focus on Real Time Trains ''uploads'? The May 2018 timetable isn't established in its final draft until 14/03/18?

I'm surprised someone would ask that, let alone here! But in answer:

These are changes that have been subject to both quite a lot of hype and quite of a lot of well publicised information, some of which has later turned out to be misleading. Even the sort of members of the general travelling public that aren't on this forum are really curious about what's going to happen. In Cambridge we were expecting up to 4 new trains an hour from May (2 starting from Cambridge North), and these had been subject of a lot of press releases to the local paper over a long period of time. There's been publicity (sought by TL) at every key stage in the physical works in London, the expansion of Cambridge station, at every stage of the platform extensions more locally, and every stage in the progress of the train contract from signing to delivery, and at every stage of the consultations.

In recent times this has reached a crescendo as many key stages are being reached really frequently. We've had the consultations go out very widely, and aspects of them (like dropping the service to Cambridge North) have been really contentious and lead to MP complaints / local protests. We've had the saga of the platform extensions. We've had the complaints about the seats that have a) made national and local papers and b) increased awareness of the service changes. We've had the well publicised announcement of the wider delay in issuing timetables. We've had the preview train services start with journalists invited onto the first one (advertised in the press as if this was the beginning of a usable direct service to Gatwick).

... So people really want to know what these... 2/4 trains an hour, I mean 4 trains an hour but only from Cambridge, I mean 2, I mean 1? What? 1 a day??? 1 an hour? From when? Services with the nice new trains, I mean awful trains? with more seats? less seats? more capacity? what? Running from stations with longer platforms? Some stations with longer platforms? Some stations with some platforms longer? What? ... are going to be like.

neilm · 27 Feb 2018

Look at the worry it is causing people because of the botched communication, it would of been better if they had hidden it instead of half loading it.

https://twitter.com/Eddie_Vermeer/status/968580208449196037?s=19

GoatSarah · 27 Feb 2018

gingerheid said:
I
... So people really want to know what these... 2/4 trains an hour, I mean 4 trains an hour but only from Cambridge, I mean 2, I mean 1? What? 1 a day??? 1 an hour? From when? Services with the nice new trains, I mean awful trains? with more seats? less seats? more capacity? what? Running from stations with longer platforms? Some stations with longer platforms? Some stations with some platforms longer? What? ... are going to be like.

For now, it seems the reality for Cambridge is that the hourly semi fast to KGX has become the Brighton service and departs in the slot that the slow used to take, and we have no idea what time the slow departs.

So literally no more trains to London, down from the substantial service increase we were expecting.

Hadders · 27 Feb 2018

I did an analysis of trains from Stevenage in proposed timetable from the consultation last summer.

Currently there are departures to Kings Cross at the following times between 0700 and 0759 (journey time shown in brackets):
0707 (27 mins)
0715 (41 mins)
0724 (26 mins)
0731 (45 mins)
0736 (26 mins)
0738 (27 mins)
0742 (33 mins)
0758 (23 mins)

The consultation proposed the following times:
0702 (STP 27 mins)
0710 (STP 41 mins)
0717 (STP 27 mins)
0719 (KGX 25 mins)
0732 (STP 27 mins)
0740 (STP 41 mins)
0747 (STP 27 mins)
0751 (KGX 23 mins)

The three trains highlighted in bold have not been loaded in Real Time Trains.

It's interesting to note that although there's a large increase in off peak capacity which is very welcome there is no such increase in the peak. I strongly suspect there will be significantly fewer seats - everything currently runs as 8 or 12 car at present between 0700 and 0800. The only possible way there can be an increase in capacity between 0700 and 0800 will be if a service is increased from 8 to 12 cars. Most of the 700s are 8-car so I'd have thought there is only limited scope for lengthening these services.

Failed Unit · 28 Feb 2018

Highlighted to Great Northern that the lack of new timetables is preventing me booking AP tickets on longer journeys. Their response was they were there the other day so are investigating. So it could be a genuine mistake. Hopefully they will be there soon as not being able to book APs is hitting customers in the pocket. Normally splitting at London / Peterborough is more expensive as the AP price difference doesn’t cover the single Gn journey.

Minstral25 · 28 Feb 2018

Hadders said:
The consultation proposed the following times:
0702 (STP 27 mins)
0710 (STP 41 mins)
0717 (STP 27 mins)
0719 (KGX 25 mins)
0732 (STP 27 mins)
0740 (STP 41 mins)
0747 (STP 27 mins)
0751 (KGX 23 mins)

The three trains highlighted in bold have not been loaded in Real Time Trains.

It's interesting to note that although there's a large increase in off peak capacity which is very welcome there is no such increase in the peak. I strongly suspect there will be significantly fewer seats - everything currently runs as 8 or 12 car at present between 0700 and 0800. The only possible way there can be an increase in capacity between 0700 and 0800 will be if a service is increased from 8 to 12 cars. Most of the 700s are 8-car so I'd have thought there is only limited scope for lengthening these services.

The xx:02/32 and xx:17/47 are both 12 coach services as they are main line Thameslink trains (i.e. Peterborough - Horsham or Cambridge - Brighton). The xx:10/40 is the stopper service from Cambridge to Maidstone which I think is a local Thameslink service which means 8 coach 700, but also is being run only to KGX until 2019 which is probably why not uploaded yet.

swt_passenger · 28 Feb 2018

GoatSarah said:
For now, it seems the reality for Cambridge is that the hourly semi fast to KGX has become the Brighton service and departs in the slot that the slow used to take, and we have no idea what time the slow departs.

So literally no more trains to London, down from the substantial service increase we were expecting.

I don't recall the GN side of Thameslink ever emphasising 'more trains to London', it has always been the case that existing GN services would be linked to existing SN or SE services across the core.

Deerfold · 28 Feb 2018

swt_passenger said:
I don't recall the GN side of Thameslink ever emphasising 'more trains to London', it has always been the case that existing GN services would be linked to existing SN or SE services across the core.

They need to improve the press that's going out, then.

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/ne...ge-brighton-gatwick-thameslink-train-14340970

There's currently only one train most days the service is operating, but from May there will be one train every hour operating on the route - and from December that will go up to two trains an hour.

The routes aren't replacing any of the trains currently operating between Cambridge and London, which will remain just as frequent.

Deerfold · 28 Feb 2018

Silver Cobra said:
Looks like the TL Peterborough-Horsham services are now in the system for May 21st onwards (here on RTT). One thing that interests me is that there's two one-hour gaps in the morning, with one being in the peak (between the 0624 and 0724, and 0823 and 0926 departures from Peterborough). I'm guessing there's still a few more services to add into the system, as I can't imagine they'd actually have a one hour gap between services like that, especially in the morning peak.

Those gaps seem to have been filled.

collexions · 28 Feb 2018

ijmad said:
Given people on Twitter have spent the last month or so attempting to extra a date out of Thameslink for when the new timetables are published, good to know, finally. All they're saying is "real soon now" over and over.

Timetable release milestones are on Network Rail's website, in the 'industry-commercial-partners/information-operating-companies' page, Operational Rules (EAS-TPR) section...
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/industry-commercial-partners/information-operating-companies/

Calendar of Milestone dates 2019 - Principal timetable
https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-co...-Milestone-dates-2019-Principal-timetable.pdf

gingerheid · 28 Feb 2018

swt_passenger said:
I don't recall the GN side of Thameslink ever emphasising 'more trains to London', it has always been the case that existing GN services would be linked to existing SN or SE services across the core.

I'm certain that at one point (the point Cambridge North was getting a service) they said there'd be six trains an hour from Cambridge; two fasts to KX, two semi fasts Cambridge North to Brighton, and two slows from Cambridge to Maidstone East.

What is the current plan?

swt_passenger · 28 Feb 2018

I’m just going by descriptions of the service going way back, as far as the 2011 London and SE RUS and earlier, that have always stated that the 8 tph from the GN would be diversions of existing services that already ran into Kings Cross.
The recent maps of the final service pattern have shown that to be 2 from Peterborough, 2 from Welwyn GC, and 4 from Cambridge.

bramling · 28 Feb 2018

gingerheid said:
I'm certain that at one point (the point Cambridge North was getting a service) they said there'd be six trains an hour from Cambridge; two fasts to KX, two semi fasts Cambridge North to Brighton, and two slows from Cambridge to Maidstone East.

What is the current plan?

I think that still stands, officially, however one of the Brighton services will not now be being introduced in May. Not much seems to have been said as to whether there will be an extra Cambridge North-King's Cross service to compensate, nor whether the stopping service is going to be 2tph Cambridge to King's Cross from May. It will of course need to be 2tph inwards of Hitchin to match existing service levels, however one train could possibly quite happily start and finish at Letchworth.

The whole Cambridge situation is messy, as first of all there's the issue that Cambridge passengers travelling through to the core and beyond would take up space to the detriment of passengers boarding at intermediate stations. Secondly there's the issue of some of the service going from St Pancras whilst the rest goes from King's Cross. Then there's the complication of Cambridge North, although this looks to be gaining the 2tph fast service from May which should improve things - although things won't be wonderful if the Kings Lynn trains remain 4 cars only. The infrastructure between Hitchin and Cambridge is going to seriously struggle, which seems now to be being officially acknowledged with the phasing of the plans.

gingerheid · 28 Feb 2018

It looks like I didn't imagine it; this map definitely suggested extra Cambridge services:

https://www.palmersgreencommunity.o...orthern-service-improvements-planned-for-2018

I wonder how far the plans will get. Maps like this certainly seemed overambitious and a bit... fragile.

swt_passenger · 28 Feb 2018

If the two extra stoppers from Cambridge get overtaken by fasts, will they get used?

When I was thinking of no extra services, I probably was thinking of the number approaching London. Perhaps the additional Cambridge starters are existing services extended back.

notverydeep · 28 Feb 2018

collexions said:
Timetable release milestones are on Network Rail's website, in the 'industry-commercial-partners/information-operating-companies' page, Operational Rules (EAS-TPR) section...
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/industry-commercial-partners/information-operating-companies/

Calendar of Milestone dates 2019 - Principal timetable
https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-co...-Milestone-dates-2019-Principal-timetable.pdf

My interpretation of this is that the milestone D14 - CIF Electronic Data available should now have been reached (the date shown is the 9th February 2018) for the May 2018 'subsidiary' timetable. This is presumably why Real Time Trains and similar websites now have the majority of trains across all TOCs for dates after the timetable implementation.

The promise of publication of the May 2018 GTR timetable on 25th February came originally from GTR themselves (not Network Rail) and was made widely to passengers and stakeholders. GTR clearly planned to make this available on this date and have missed the deadline for publishing they set themselves and indicated publically. It may be that the problem lies elsewhere, but GTR's public facing communications do not say why they were not able to fulfil their previous commitment to make the May 2018 GTR timetable public on that date, and have removed references to it - simply that publication will occur 'soon'. Until the deadline passed, there was a clear expectation set that the timetable would be available - hence the anticipation and (in some cases annoyance) of members of this forum, GTR customers and stakeholders, who were led to believe by GTR that they would know more about the post May services by now...

Perhaps GTR like deadlines in the same sense as Douglas Adams...

swt_passenger · 28 Feb 2018

Deleted

TheDavibob · 28 Feb 2018

swt_passenger said:
If the two extra stoppers from Cambridge get overtaken by fasts, will they get used?

Not from Cambridge through no, but the existing stoppers aren't anyway. They're the only service for the Cambs villages. Further, it is worth remembering Cambridge has a commuter belt of its own, and the latest plan to have the stoppers rather than the semifasts running to North makes the most of that, providing a reasonably frequent service from the villages to North (where the jobs are) which is probably more useful than from North to the core (even if it is personally worse for me).

gingerheid · 28 Feb 2018

Ah - is that what the plan is for Cambridge North? I feel that makes sense. I was worried that my reading of what's happening seemed to be that only the fasts were going to stop there. The purpose of the station appears to me to be to take people from the north of Cambridge and villages around the A14 / A10 to London as quickly as possible, and to take people from the smaller places around Cambridge to the Science Park.

Though in that respect it seems like a bit of a shame that services from March to Cambridge North don't seem to be part of anyone's thinking. The service to Stansted will indeed be wonderful... about twice a year... as long as both flights aren't either too early or too late...

Of course muggins here has to be the odd one out. I'll be commuting to either Stratford or Croydon. I was really hoping for those Thameslink semi-fasts!

TheDavibob · 28 Feb 2018

gingerheid said:
Ah - is that what the plan is for Cambridge North? I feel that makes sense. I was worried that my reading of what's happening seemed to be that only the fasts were going to stop there. The purpose of the station appears to me to be to take people from the north of Cambridge and villages around the A14 / A10 to London as quickly as possible, and to take people from the smaller places around Cambridge to the Science Park.

Though in that respect it seems like a bit of a shame that services from March to Cambridge North don't seem to be part of anyone's thinking. The service to Stansted will indeed be wonderful... about twice a year... as long as both flights aren't either too early or too late...

Of course muggins here has to be the odd one out. I'll be commuting to either Stratford or Croydon. I was really hoping for those Thameslink semi-fasts!

Don't quote me on that being the plan, but that's the impression I've got.

Similar boat to you - there might well be a time that a semifast from North would be ideal for me, workwise. That said, the advantage is in it being direct rather than quick (not heading as far as Croydon).

jon0844 · 28 Feb 2018

bramling said:
I think that still stands, officially, however one of the Brighton services will not now be being introduced in May. Not much seems to have been said as to whether there will be an extra Cambridge North-King's Cross service to compensate, nor whether the stopping service is going to be 2tph Cambridge to King's Cross from May. It will of course need to be 2tph inwards of Hitchin to match existing service levels, however one train could possibly quite happily start and finish at Letchworth.

The whole Cambridge situation is messy, as first of all there's the issue that Cambridge passengers travelling through to the core and beyond would take up space to the detriment of passengers boarding at intermediate stations. Secondly there's the issue of some of the service going from St Pancras whilst the rest goes from King's Cross. Then there's the complication of Cambridge North, although this looks to be gaining the 2tph fast service from May which should improve things - although things won't be wonderful if the Kings Lynn trains remain 4 cars only. The infrastructure between Hitchin and Cambridge is going to seriously struggle, which seems now to be being officially acknowledged with the phasing of the plans.

The Cambridge situation is messy for reasons I am not sure I can openly talk about. I can perhaps elude and say it's something to do with the operator of the station and some operational issues.

GoatSarah · 28 Feb 2018

jon0844 said:
The Cambridge situation is messy for reasons I am not sure I can openly talk about. I can perhaps elude and say it's something to do with the operator of the station and some operational issues.

Having Greater Anglia operate Cambridge station was a terrible idea what they split the WAGN franchise and it remains a terrible idea now.

philjo · 28 Feb 2018

I see that the 0718 and 0740 Kings Lynn to Kings cross services will still be calling at Letchworth which is good news.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W60991/2018/05/22/advanced

The 0718 (calling Letchworth at 0834) is booked to arrive at Platform 11 so can only be 8 coaches. The equivalent train at present (8 coaches) is normally full and standing when it calls at Letchworth, especially since 387s took over from the 365s. I thought most of the Kings Lynn trains were supposed to be running as 12 coaches south of Cambridge?

jon0844 · 28 Feb 2018

GoatSarah said:
Having Greater Anglia operate Cambridge station was a terrible idea what they split the WAGN franchise and it remains a terrible idea now.

One solution might be to put GTR staff in to do shutdowns/sweeps, splits and joins.

4-SUB 4732 · 28 Feb 2018

gingerheid said:
I'm certain that at one point (the point Cambridge North was getting a service) they said there'd be six trains an hour from Cambridge; two fasts to KX, two semi fasts Cambridge North to Brighton, and two slows from Cambridge to Maidstone East.

What is the current plan?

Even as recently as March 2017 the party line at GN/TL was the Cambridge North to Brighton (not Cambridge starter) service would stop at Cambridge, Royston, Letchworth and Finsbury to have a ‘fast service’ and the stopper would run behind it. The Kings Lynn / Ely flyers would also still run.

Now, following ‘tireless campaigning’, the trains are also stopping at the likes of Baldock (just ludicrous), Hitchin (justifiable at peak) and Stevenage (justifiable at peak). The off peak journeys are increased in duration and Cambridge North is cut off.

Shocking.

GoatSarah · 28 Feb 2018

4-SUB 4732 said:
Now, following ‘tireless campaigning’, the trains are also stopping at the likes of Baldock (just ludicrous), Hitchin (justifiable at peak) and Stevenage (justifiable at peak). The off peak journeys are increased in duration and Cambridge North is cut off.

Shocking.

That's because they're replacing the existing CBG-KGX semi fast which also serve these stations and they're not getting the extra trains they would have got by replacement of the stopper with 2 x Thameslink stoppers.

bramling · 1 Mar 2018

GoatSarah said:
That's because they're replacing the existing CBG-KGX semi fast which also serve these stations and they're not getting the extra trains they would have got by replacement of the stopper with 2 x Thameslink stoppers.

It was always the plan that the Cambridge to Brighton would call at the likes of Hitchin and Stevenage, both of which are very busy. Cambridge already has 2 tph to London.

The contentious one was Baldock. I suspect this was originally dropped partly due to demand and partly due to having 8 car platforms thus making 12 car working less desirable (although perfectly feasible with SDO). Evidently there was heavy local opposition.

If places like Baldock and particularly Hitchin and Stevenage were omitted then there would need to be a Royston off-peak service. This might please many as it could be run with 8-car 365s, but operationally it would be a nuisance especially having to reverse at Royston.

philjo · 1 Mar 2018

There are proposals to build 3500 new homes in Baldock. Approximately 2800 of these homes and 3 new schools are planned for the land adjacent to the north side of the railway. The consultation plans include a new north entrance to the station so most of these homes will be within a 15 min walk from the station.

https://www.hertfordshire.gov.uk/me.../baldock-consultation-boards-6-7-oct-2017.pdf

I understand that GTR were not aware of the development plans when the original timetable proposal was announced stating that the semi-fasts would not call at Baldock. I think there has been a lot of pressure from the local MP and also from Herts County Council for at least one semi-fast per hour to call.

Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

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