Passengers stuck on trains overnight in New Forest (01/03 - 02/03)

Ash Bridge · 2 Mar 2018

I have total respect for someone who comes on and apologises for something they said and that afterwards considers that maybe it was an ill judged thing to write, no so many will admit that publicly so good on you!

RailUK Forums

w0033944 · 2 Mar 2018

George166 said:
It's a no win situation, cancel services and there will be criticism, run them and you risk something like this. I don't see a solution quite honestly.

Agreed, but I think, if I were in the position of deciding which trains to cancel, I'd lean towards caution. Freezing rain is a very rare meteorological event in the UK, so it isn't as though setting the precedent would result in several days of disruption.

Wirewiper · 2 Mar 2018

Thank you for apologising 700007.

Bletchleyite · 2 Mar 2018

w0033944 said:
Agreed, but I think, if I were in the position of deciding which trains to cancel, I'd lean towards caution. Freezing rain is a very rare meteorological event in the UK, so it isn't as though setting the precedent would result in several days of disruption.

As an idea, my boiler condensate pipe froze (as has happened to many).. it's never happened before and I've lived here 7 years.

Samuel88 · 2 Mar 2018

This sort of situation is completely unacceptable, what if someone had a medical emergency? I bet then the emergency services would've have been there sharpish!

Bletchleyite · 2 Mar 2018

Samuel88 said:
This sort of situation is completely unacceptable, what if someone had a medical emergency? I bet then the emergency services would've have been there sharpish!

In those kinds of conditions, what constitutes an emergency goes up somewhat. Clearly the emergency services would do their best if someone was seriously ill. But in the circumstances having to kip on an almost empty train doesn't really constitute an emergency.

w0033944 · 2 Mar 2018

Bletchleyite said:
As an idea, my boiler condensate pipe froze (as has happened to many).. it's never happened before and I've lived here 7 years.

Ours did that yeaterday, and we dodn't have freezing rain! Mind you, we only had this boiler fitted last summer.

bb21 · 2 Mar 2018

Samuel88 said:
This sort of situation is completely unacceptable, what if someone had a medical emergency? I bet then the emergency services would've have been there sharpish!

Helicopter would be flown in I would imagine, but it would appear there was none (medical emergency) last night.

Now try and rescue 200+ people on a medical helicopter.

Samuel88 · 2 Mar 2018

I have diabetes, I only carry enough insulin for the day, what if I went hypo? No buffet car on that service, so I couldn't even maintain my sugar levels if I was on that train, SWR should've done more!

theironroad · 2 Mar 2018

bb21 said:
You know what people at Basingstoke did, how? Please elaborate.

Baseless comments like this are irresponsible. Basingstoke have been completely overloaded recently but must it be because they couldn't make a decision?

Yes, they make mistakes, but to imply they didn't even try hard enough last night is completely nonsense if you can even glance into the control log.

I guess you work in the WICC then as it seem to have touched a raw nerve.

Firstly I've not implied individual staff "didnt even try hard enough",so please acknowledge that your statement is incorrect.

However, in excess of 15 years experience at the sharp end I know it can be extremely hard to get a timely decision from the WICC during disruption, a sentiment shared by many signallers I've found. Then communication of that decision to people who need to know can be patchy.

I'm happy to acknowledge when good, timely decisions are made and communicated in a timely manner to the front line, but there is scope for huge improvement.

Bletchleyite · 2 Mar 2018

Samuel88 said:
I have diabetes, I only carry enough insulin for the day, what if I went hypo? No buffet car on that service, so I couldn't even maintain my sugar levels if I was on that train, SWR should've done more!

You'd have opened your mouth and said so, it would have become clear it was an emergency situation, and no doubt some kind of emergency arrangements could have been considered.

And maybe if you go out on a train having been advised not to travel, it might not be a terrible idea to carry more than that, even if it would result in it being binned (I believe it doesn't keep well). Similarly stout shoes and warm clothing are advisable in such circumstances in case a walk is needed. It's no different from going out by car and taking a shovel, blankets and flask of tea.

theironroad · 2 Mar 2018

Samuel88 said:
I have diabetes, I only carry enough insulin for the day, what if I went hypo? No buffet car on that service, so I couldn't even maintain my sugar levels if I was on that train, SWR should've done more!

Do you not carry glucose tablets in case of a hypo?

In any case, if you went hypo (low sugar) the last thing you need is insulin to lower it more.

tsr · 2 Mar 2018

theironroad said:
I guess you work in the WICC then as it seem to have touched a raw nerve.

Firstly I've not implied individual staff "didnt even try hard enough",so please acknowledge that your statement is incorrect.

However, in excess of 15 years experience at the sharp end I know it can be extremely hard to get a timely decision from the WICC during disruption, a sentiment shared by many signallers I've found. Then communication of that decision to people who need to know can be patchy.

I'm happy to acknowledge when good, timely decisions are made and communicated in a timely manner to the front line, but there is scope for huge improvement.

Quite agree with this.

I’m definitely not saying I could guarantee to do better in these specific circumstances, nor could anyone else. Although the last time Southern had a train “arc-welded” (as the press put it) to the track, to give one appropriate example, the delay in rescuing passengers was deemed unacceptable and yet it was only about half the time taken in this instance. This was the 313 incident near Southease not so long ago.

It must be said that the WICC is regrettably well-known amongst other control rooms for not doing stuff very quickly compared to KICC, TBROC etc. The quality of the decisions seems to have improved, but not the speed - which is of the essence when you have people trapped on cold trains.

Antman · 2 Mar 2018

Samuel88 said:
I have diabetes, I only carry enough insulin for the day, what if I went hypo? No buffet car on that service, so I couldn't even maintain my sugar levels if I was on that train, SWR should've done more!

The fire brigade apparently got bottled water there and presumably they could have got some insulin there if necessary?

Bletchleyite · 2 Mar 2018

theironroad said:
Do you not carry glucose tablets in case of a hypo?

In any case, if you went hypo (low sugar) the last thing you need is insulin to lower it more.

And going hyper causes more long-term damage than immediate danger. So much so that first aid training is that if you suspect a diabetic incident of either kind, give sugar, because it'll solve the life-threatening problem if it's a hypo, and it won't cause immediate harm (but won't do anything) if it's a hyper.

Bromley boy · 2 Mar 2018

Ash Bridge said:
I have total respect for someone who comes on and apologises for something they said and that afterwards considers that maybe it was an ill judged thing to write, no so many will admit that publicly so good on you!

Seconded. Thanks to 700007.

Samuel88 · 2 Mar 2018

theironroad said:
Do you not carry glucose tablets in case of a hypo?

In any case, if you went hypo (low sugar) the last thing you need is insulin to lower it more.

But sometimes for me, glucose tablets aren't enough for me to keep my sugar up, and not just me, what if someone had a cardiac arrest? I'm not sure if every train has a defibrillator, if this one hadn't they would've been long gone by the time a chopper would reach them!

Bromley boy · 2 Mar 2018

Samuel88 said:
This sort of situation is completely unacceptable, what if someone had a medical emergency? I bet then the emergency services would've have been there sharpish!

In that case the recovery this morning would probably be for - 1 passenger, + 1 body. The emergency services would be physically unable to reach the casualty.

Why is that so hard to understand?

A helicopter rescue *may* be possible but that is by no means certain in freezing rain.

Bletchleyite · 2 Mar 2018

Samuel88 said:
But sometimes for me, glucose tablets aren't enough for me to keep my sugar up, and not just me, what if someone had a cardiac arrest?

Exactly the same as would have happened if someone in a house down the road from the station had had a cardiac arrest.

EdinburghTrain · 2 Mar 2018

Samuel88 said:
But sometimes for me, glucose tablets aren't enough for me to keep my sugar up, and not just me, what if someone had a cardiac arrest? I'm not sure if every train has a defibrillator, if this one hadn't they would've been long gone by the time a chopper would reach them!

It’s been a challenging week for all people and businesses, you can’t plan for all eventualities.

What if someone’s eyes had fallen out, or their arms disappeared? Help would’ve been called for.

theironroad · 2 Mar 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Exactly the same as would have happened if someone in a house down the road from the station had had a cardiac arrest.

You've vaguely reminded me of the 1st aid course I did many years ago, that giving glucose wouldn't do harm either way.

theironroad · 2 Mar 2018

Samuel88 said:
But sometimes for me, glucose tablets aren't enough for me to keep my sugar up, and not just me, what if someone had a cardiac arrest? I'm not sure if every train has a defibrillator, if this one hadn't they would've been long gone by the time a chopper would reach them!

Ok, i was replying to a specific scenario when the person was talking about running out of insulin and going hypo!

What if anyone had a cardiac arrest or stroke, it's a different ball game .

theironroad · 2 Mar 2018

Samuel88 said:
But sometimes for me, glucose tablets aren't enough for me to keep my sugar up, and not just me, what if someone had a cardiac arrest? I'm not sure if every train has a defibrillator, if this one hadn't they would've been long gone by the time a chopper would reach them!

For the record , no SWR trains carry defibs. Some stations do however.

Robertj21a · 2 Mar 2018

Samuel88 said:
I have diabetes, I only carry enough insulin for the day, what if I went hypo? No buffet car on that service, so I couldn't even maintain my sugar levels if I was on that train, SWR should've done more!

What 'more' do you feel that SWR should have done ?. What 'more' could you have also done for yourself given that you know of your own medical condition and, presumably, knew of the poor weather conditions ?

Bromley boy · 2 Mar 2018

Samuel88 said:
I'm not sure if every train has a defibrillator, if this one hadn't they would've been long gone by the time a chopper would reach them!

No they do not. Trains are not places where people are intended to be detained for many hours without access to assistance. This is a big part of the reason why TOCs wish to avoid running trains in circumstances where they may get stuck - it's far better to err on the side of cancellations (although this produces a predictable backlash as we saw on this very thread).

There are also relatively few air ambulances - one typically covers more than one county and, if they can fly at all, are likely to be very thinly spread during a major crisis.

The reality is that if someone had suffered an acute medical emergency on a stuck train last night (including someone with diabetes without access to insulin) they would most likely have died before assistance could have reached them.

Bletchleyite · 2 Mar 2018

Bromley boy said:
The reality is that if someone had suffered an acute medical emergency on a stuck train last night (including someone with diabetes without access to insulin) they would most likely have died before assistance could have reached them.

Though in practice, in most parts of the country, they would have been in exactly the same, er, boat, as someone in the farmhouse across the field from the train. The South East isn't rural in the way the Far North, the West Highland Line or the S&C is. The New Forest is a bit bleak but no part of it is *that* far from some kind of building. Even Beaulieu Road has a Scout campsite about 2 miles up the road (probably provides a lot of its custom) which could have provided emergency shelter in its buildings (often Scout buildings are opened up in these kinds of situations).

30909 · 2 Mar 2018

SWR don't want to be caught out again today they are closing the network early with the last trains planned to reach their destination at 20:00. It's already snowing in East Hampshire at 13:00

Bromley boy · 2 Mar 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Though in practice, in most parts of the country, they would have been in exactly the same, er, boat, as someone in the farmhouse across the field from the train. The South East isn't rural in the way the Far North, the West Highland Line or the S&C is. The New Forest is a bit bleak but no part of it is *that* far from some kind of building. Even Beaulieu Road has a Scout campsite about 2 miles up the road (probably provides a lot of its custom) which could have provided emergency shelter in its buildings (often Scout buildings are opened up in these kinds of situations).

True. But someone who lives in an isolated (even by SE standards) farm house would likely have made contingency plans - especially if they suffered from diabetes or other conditions which require medication.

Even if you knew about the existence of such a building, detraining and walking miles in freezing conditions at night through thick snow may be impossible, especially for someone who is elderly, frail or suffering some kind of medical emergency.

It just concerns me that it's shocking to people on this thread that if a train gets stuck, there may be no access to medical assistance or rescue for many hours.

6Gman · 2 Mar 2018

Samuel88 said:
I have diabetes, I only carry enough insulin for the day, what if I went hypo? No buffet car on that service, so I couldn't even maintain my sugar levels if I was on that train, SWR should've done more!

I have a blood sugar disorder. Given the weather I'm staying at home.

If I HAD to travel then I would go well prepared.

embers25 · 2 Mar 2018

Pretty pathetic that BBC News at One just reported that "South West Trains" apologised! At least get the company name right.

Passengers stuck on trains overnight in New Forest (01/03 - 02/03)

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