Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

tsr · 3 Mar 2018

Class 170101 said:
Regarding the PA Fault isn't it a requirement of a DOO Train that the PA is working?

Yes it is, but the requirement is generally understood to be that the train must have PA if it is to remain in service beyond a station, not if it drops out of use after the train's been stranded between stations.

It would be an interesting concept indeed if the train had to be evacuated as soon as the battery powering the PA failed!

island said:
It is said that the PA may have been defective on a number of units. Certainly, as a regular Southeastern user, I would say a quarter or so of the trains I travel on have inaudible or nonexistent announcements, with Networkers being worse than Electrostars.

I quite agree the Networker PAs seem to be less than perfect. There are a number of PA systems which do depend more heavily on user technique than others; this was regularly pointed out with 700s, as well as newer Electrostars. I don't know if Networkers fall into this category.

Some trains have a setting by which the train crew can play a continuous test tone / audio message through each coach, but many do not, which means it is much more distracting and time-consuming to check every coach if a fault is suspected.

ComUtoR said:
By controller do you mean Signaler ? There are many occasions I have sat on a signal with no communication from the Signaler. SG - Wait is the norm. We have pushed for more General Broadcasts to be used but they are rarer than rocking horse poo.

From my 'control' ? Very much non existent. With GSMR 3.6 Our control can now contact us but again its rare. However this is a new system so time will tell what happens.

Getting communication to the Driver (at least from my perspective) has always been pretty much non existent.

It's definitely something the railway urgently needs to address. The sheer lack of effort to deliver information to drivers, especially in the DfT's beloved DOO areas (!), is astounding.

If I'm on a train which is stuck somewhere, and the crew don't seem to have much info, I'll usually see if I can introduce myself and see if I can pass on something from the Control log so they can advise their passengers. Often just one or two sentences of information makes all the difference. Some signallers are very good at general broadcasts, but very few of them are, yet often they only need to relay a very small amount of information here and there so that the crew (who are obviously familiar with the route and prevailing conditions) can work out the scenario being faced.

I've yet to hear of any TOC control routinely contacting multiple individual drivers on stranded trains in urban areas via the GSM-R - I could be wrong, but it's usually only after repeated calls by the crew that they get any meaningful info, and this seems the case across much of the country.

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neilm · 3 Mar 2018

According to BBC news RAIB is now investigating, if this is like Kentish town is this will be bad for south eastern railway.

GW43125 · 3 Mar 2018

neilm said:
According to BBC news RAIB is now investigating, if this is like Kentish town is this will be bad for south eastern railway.

Were the learning points resultant from Kentish Town actually actioned?

neilm · 3 Mar 2018

GW43125 said:
Were the learning points resultant from Kentish Town actually actioned?

I don't know but it could be painful reading if they have not learnt.

Robertj21a · 3 Mar 2018

If I've understood all this correctly, it was about an hour before the first egress from the stranded train. Personally, I would say that, for a packed train, near to a station platform, one hour is getting close to the time when it's highly likely that something was going to 'kick off'. How long do the railmen on this thread honestly feel would have been a more understandable time for passengers to leave the train of their own accord - I realise that some will say 'never' but I'm hoping for a sensible response. Two hours - four - twelve ?

I would know there's a live third rail there, and that in itself would have deterred me from doing anything 'silly', but others wouldn't realise the significance. In any event, there should be no difference between the TOC/NR reaction whether it's a third rail or non-electrified line. How long should passengers expect to wait if nothing appears to be happening ?

ComUtoR · 3 Mar 2018

tsr said:
Some trains have a setting by which the train crew can play a continuous test tone / audio message through each coach, but many do not, which means it is much more distracting and time-consuming to check every coach if a fault is suspected.

This is a feature of the GSMR. Click through the menu and you should be able to find it.

It's definitely something the railway urgently needs to address. The sheer lack of effort to deliver information to drivers, especially in the DfT's beloved DOO areas (!), is astounding.

Agreed, its truly shocking.

I've yet to hear of any TOC control routinely contacting multiple individual drivers on stranded trains in urban areas via the GSM-R - I could be wrong, but it's usually only after repeated calls by the crew that they get any meaningful info, and this seems the case across much of the country.

It's a new feature for GSMR 3.6. I had my first call from control the other day. They informed me of something I had already agreed with the Signaler. As I said, its new and I'm willing to let it play out and see how well it gets used. Clearly in this case it should have been utilized.

burneside · 3 Mar 2018

I was on the the 2M50 service which departed Charing Cross 47 minutes late at 1713. When we came to a halt outside Lewisham the driver informed us that the train in the station was having problems collecting juice from the third rail and was edging out of the station incredibly slowly, after quite some time he then told us the train had cleared the platform but not the signalling sector so we were still being held at the red light. After another prolonged period he advised he had requested permission to de-train passengers in the front five coaches through his cab door as it was close to the platform, this permission didn't seem to be forthcoming. I was in the second to last coach so that would not have helped anyway. The driver was excellent and made frequent announcements sharing the little information he had, he seemed as frustrated as the passengers at the way the situation was being handled.

The emergency lights remained on for a period after the power was switched off but eventually they failed, so we were sat in the dark with no further announcements, no toilets, and no heating (which hadn't been working for any part of the journey). Eventually some passengers opened a couple of the doors, maybe one or two jumped off and starting walking, the rest of us remained, but at least it gave the men a chance to pee out of the door and a few did have to do that. I suspect some women probably just wet themselves. Assistance finally arrived and we were helped down from the train, which is not an easy feat when you are over 60, and made the treacherous walk over the ice and snow covered ballast to Lewisham station. I must say the emergency services were excellent helping to escort passengers along the track.

My Oyster history shows I tapped in CHX at 1704 and tapped out at Lewisham at 2034, it's not an experience I ever want to repeat.

Bromley boy · 3 Mar 2018

Chris M said:
I do not know who first egressed so I do not wish to say what their thought processes were but it is very likely that they would not know that their self-detraining would impact other trains. From what I gather there were no announcements being made and no other indication why they would have any reason to believe that they wouldn't be there overnight. What they did was dangerous, but as I understand the situation and the information available to them I'm not prepared to say it was stupid.

Robertj21a said:
If I've understood all this correctly, it was about an hour before the first egress from the stranded train. Personally, I would say that, for a packed train, near to a station platform, one hour is getting close to the time when it's highly likely that something was going to 'kick off'. How long do the railmen on this thread honestly feel would have been a more understandable time for passengers to leave the train of their own accord - I realise that some will say 'never' but I'm hoping for a sensible response. Two hours - four - twelve ?

I'm working on the assumption that the first egress was from a train which had functioning heating, lighting and that the driver was keeping the passengers informed. There's virtually no chance the driver would deliberately not do this - for the simple reason that a DOO driver's worst nightmare is an uncontrolled evacuation and failure to keep passengers informed can be a contributory factor to this. We can't discount a faulty PA but again it's almost certain the PA would have been working a good proportion of the train.

Assuming the above, I would suggest an hour is an unreasonably short time. I accept it's a different matter when the train is cold and dark and the PA is out of action.

tsr · 3 Mar 2018

ComUtoR said:
This is a feature of the GSMR. Click through the menu and you should be able to find it.

Some people swear it doesn't exist on certain trains - maybe it's a firmware issue. I shall have to ask some drivers to try it out on various traction classes!

It's a new feature for GSMR 3.6. I had my first call from control the other day. They informed me of something I had already agreed with the Signaler. As I said, its new and I'm willing to let it play out and see how well it gets used. Clearly in this case it should have been utilized.

Yep, it's definitely a feature which is there in theory. It just doesn't seem to be implemented in Control processes that well! To be honest, though, I can understand that Controllers may find it tough to find an appropriate moment to make a call. They want to make sure the driver isn't distracted, but whilst they're waiting for them to stop the train or otherwise be safe to answer, they may get distracted by something else or need to re-think the message, in light of new information!

There does seem to be some new thinking that there needs to be a distinction by default between the people speaking to train crew (drivers / guards / OBMs / OBSs / whatever!) and co-ordinating both their movements and their information, and the people making the strategic decisions, but this is an area under considerable development.

Bromley boy · 3 Mar 2018

burneside said:
I was on the the 2M50 service which departed Charing Cross 47 minutes late at 1713. When we came to a halt outside Lewisham the driver informed us that the train in the station was having problems collecting juice from the third rail and was edging out of the station incredibly slowly, after quite some time he then told us the train had cleared the platform but not the signalling sector so we were still being held at the red light. After another prolonged period he advised he had requested permission to de-train passengers in the front five coaches through his cab door as it was close to the platform, this permission didn't seem to be forthcoming. I was in the second to last coach so that would not have helped anyway. The driver was excellent and made frequent announcements sharing the little information he had, he seemed as frustrated as the passengers at the way the situation was being handled.

The emergency lights remained on for a period after the power was switched off but eventually they failed, so we were sat in the dark with no further announcements, no toilets, and no heating (which hadn't been working for any part of the journey). Eventually some passengers opened a couple of the doors, maybe one or two jumped off and starting walking, the rest of us remained, but at least it gave the men a chance to pee out of the door and a few did have to do that. I suspect some women probably just wet themselves. Assistance finally arrived and we were helped down from the train, which is not an easy feat when you are over 60, and made the treacherous walk over the ice and snow covered ballast to Lewisham station. I must say the emergency services were excellent helping to escort passengers along the track.

My Oyster history shows I tapped in CHX at 1704 and tapped out at Lewisham at 2034, it's not an experience I ever want to repeat.

Thanks that's very informative, and it must have been an extremely harrowing experience for all concerned.

For what it's worth I don't think people could have been expected to do any differently in the circumstances you describe.

Robertj21a · 3 Mar 2018

burneside said:
I was on the the 2M50 service which departed Charing Cross 47 minutes late at 1713. When we came to a halt outside Lewisham the driver informed us that the train in the station was having problems collecting juice from the third rail and was edging out of the station incredibly slowly, after quite some time he then told us the train had cleared the platform but not the signalling sector so we were still being held at the red light. After another prolonged period he advised he had requested permission to de-train passengers in the front five coaches through his cab door as it was close to the platform, this permission didn't seem to be forthcoming. I was in the second to last coach so that would not have helped anyway. The driver was excellent and made frequent announcements sharing the little information he had, he seemed as frustrated as the passengers at the way the situation was being handled.

The emergency lights remained on for a period after the power was switched off but eventually they failed, so we were sat in the dark with no further announcements, no toilets, and no heating (which hadn't been working for any part of the journey). Eventually some passengers opened a couple of the doors, maybe one or two jumped off and starting walking, the rest of us remained, but at least it gave the men a chance to pee out of the door and a few did have to do that. I suspect some women probably just wet themselves. Assistance finally arrived and we were helped down from the train, which is not an easy feat when you are over 60, and made the treacherous walk over the ice and snow covered ballast to Lewisham station. I must say the emergency services were excellent helping to escort passengers along the track.

My Oyster history shows I tapped in CHX at 1704 and tapped out at Lewisham at 2034, it's not an experience I ever want to repeat.

All credit to the driver, it must have been incredibly frustrating for him too.

I'm still struggling that this is our railway system in 2018. Has common sense departed, along with the people who can make decisions ?

Bromley boy · 3 Mar 2018

Robertj21a said:
All credit to the driver, it must have been incredibly frustrating for him too.

I'm still struggling that this is our railway system in 2018. Has common sense departed, along with the people who can make decisions ?

I’m afraid it is. The railway is run on a shoe string and is simply not geared up for incidents like this involving multiple trains.

It’s not sufficiently joined up, communication is abysmal and consequently there’s unlikely to be anyone who feels able to make a decision like evacuating a train “off their own bat” least of all the driver of a 10 car DOO train who would always wait for assistance to arrive.

There are station staff at Lewisham but they are not even PTS trained. Make of that what you will.

Not to politicise the issue, but this is very much the sharp end of DOO operation.

John Bray · 3 Mar 2018

The first person out was a fool, but an hour later watching other people pass and knowing that the power had been switched off and would not be restored until the track was clear, it must have been very tempting to join the exodus, as it would be viewed as safe, and not really delaying the restart. Once an evacuation starts, it needs to regularised, not criminalised, to leave 2 populations, those on the platform and those who choose to stay on the train.

neilm · 3 Mar 2018

John Bray said:
The first person out was a fool, but an hour later watching other people pass and knowing that the power had been switched off and would not be restored until the track was clear, it must have been very tempting to join the exodus, as it would be viewed as safe, and not really delaying the restart. Once an evacuation starts, it needs to regularised, not criminalised, to leave 2 populations, those on the platform and those who choose to stay on the train.

Indeed, which means the first person out is not a fool. If I had been on a train for 3 hours I think I would of bailed as well.

ComUtoR · 3 Mar 2018

tsr said:
Some people swear it doesn't exist on certain trains - maybe it's a firmware issue. I shall have to ask some drivers to try it out on various traction

So far, I haven't heard of any different versions of GSMR and the menu is universal for all. Some functions are not in use and no doubt there will be some that TOCs use but others don't. From my understanding part of the requirements/standards of GSMR is that it links with the PA system so that the Signaler can make onboard announcements in an emergency. Therefore the PA test function should be, well, er, functional. I would have to check the RGS in case it may be required for DOO only ?

There are two PA tests in the menu and only the Tone test works on our units (that I have used) so potentially it may be traction specific but the feature should be sitting there in the menu.

bramling · 3 Mar 2018

George166 said:
As I understand it if the train has no power the PA can't be used?

The PA should be fed by batteries. Of course batteries will drain, more quickly in cold weather, and modern trains are generally designed to load shed in a controlled way. This doesn't rule out defects with the train or PA system of course, and nor does it rule out people not hearing an announcement because there's too much background noise within the carriage (e.g. people talking etc).

Bletchleyite · 3 Mar 2018

The Box Photter said:
The train batteries should be used to maintain PA, lighting and heat for as long as possible. Particularly the PA to KEEP PASSENGERS INFORMED. Too often the driver isn't given enough information to be able to keep passengers calm and informed. Given that the Hampshire 13 hour stranding had been alll over the news that morning, when the Lewisham passengers heard nothing, I suspect they were concerned they'd be left to rot until daylight. If the current batteries aren't up to the job, fit bigger batteries (weight penalty, I know). The real solution is to find a way to stop 3rd rail trains getting stuck like this in the 1st place. Perhaps a small diesel engine or battery backup for "last mile power" a la Class 88 might be a way forward.

Yes, this is a very good argument for giving all EMUs the ability to move at 5-10mph on battery power of some kind.

Should trains also carry cold weather emergency equipment such as blankets for such eventualities? Any sensible person going out in cold weather takes warm clothing, but such warm clothing soon becomes inadequate if you are unable to move for a long period. The passengers in the stuck 444 could no doubt jog or walk up and down the train if needs be, but those crammed into the Electrostar couldn't. Even people on a closed motorway can get out and jog up and down - or run their engines to generate heat. (Similarly, being prepared suggests not going out in cold weather with a nearly empty fuel tank - idling the engine uses almost no fuel but does generate heat, so with a full or nearly full tank you can heat the car for hours).

Bletchleyite · 3 Mar 2018

nedchester said:
Exactly.

Don't blame them one bit. In fact I would be tempted to do the same after a similar period of time. Legality doesn't come into it.

Same here.

I will not sit and get hypothermia, wet myself and get dehydrated. I will pull the release and walk to safety.

Without power the situation is much more dire than with - with power, toilets and heating it's just inconvenient and the train is probably the safest place.

Bromley boy · 3 Mar 2018

John Bray said:
The first person out was a fool, but an hour later watching other people pass and knowing that the power had been switched off and would not be restored until the track was clear, it must have been very tempting to join the exodus, as it would be viewed as safe, and not really delaying the restart. Once an evacuation starts, it needs to regularised, not criminalised, to leave 2 populations, those on the platform and those who choose to stay on the train.

Very well put.

neilm said:
Indeed, which means the first person out is not a fool. If I had been on a train for 3 hours I think I would of bailed as well.

The first person out had been on the train for around one hour, not three hours, as has now been clearly established.

4069 · 3 Mar 2018

GW43125 said:
Were the learning points resultant from Kentish Town actually actioned?

What the BBC actually says is that the RAIB is considering whether it will investigate. RAIB investigated the Kentish Town incident because the train moved with the doors open. Nothing like that happened in this week's events.

Bletchleyite · 3 Mar 2018

Mikey C said:
Replacing the 3rd rail with OHLE will never happen, but would it be possible to replace the 3rd rail with an under-running system like the DLR has? Expensive, but it would significantly improve safety and weather resistance?

I think the cost of that would be prohibitive.

What is in my view needed is that, with a few possible exceptions like the Far North Line and S&C where other , there is a plan, including one which will work in severe weather, for the evacuation of any stuck train without toilets, or with an interior temperature less than say 15 degrees Celsius, within one hour, and any other stranded train within three hours.

For situations where this would not be possible, the train must carry an adequate amount of emergency equipment, which might include some kind of emergency toilet facility (bag and box based ones exist for use at festivals etc), an adequate quantity of water (I would say a 500ml bottle per seat would be a good starting point for this) and an adequate quantity of orange plastic mountain survival bags (one per seat as a minimum).

ChiefPlanner · 3 Mar 2018

Should trains also carry cold weather emergency equipment such as blankets for such eventualities? Any sensible person going out in cold weather takes warm clothing, but such warm clothing soon becomes inadequate if you are unable to move for a long period. The passengers in the stuck 444 could no doubt jog or walk up and down the train if needs be, but those crammed into the Electrostar couldn't. Even people on a closed motorway can get out and jog up and down - or run their engines to generate heat. (Similarly, being prepared suggests not going out in cold weather with a nearly empty fuel tank - idling the engine uses almost no fuel but does generate heat, so with a full or nearly full tank you can heat the car for hours).

World of difference in the example of the Far North line way back in primeval BR days , wen some trains got snowed in north of Dingwall (LHCS of course) , and after a torrid time , were rescued by the military. This storm also destroyed the pole route which led to the RETB system coming in. Numbers were obviously low , and thereafter , Winter trains carried emergency hampers with Mars Bars , soup and camping stoves etc - + blankets in the Brakevan. In other climatic conditions , Inter City trains carry stocks of bottled water (take a look at the inside of an ECML DVT) , and may stations (my local one) , has several cases of water.

I think - obviously - carrying similar things on a Metro train are obviously crazy.

Mulling over things , I wonder if a more sensible thing would be training station staff or an auxiliary force of "snowmen" to give some much needed support for the NR MOM;s who do a great job - but are overwhelmed in bad instances like this. Of course , "ORR" efficencies in operations budgets make these critical staff a target for reducing numbers to the minimum to allow "normal" operational coverage, (and that is tight in my humble opinion) , LUL have advantages in that they have operational track side competencies in helping out in scenarios like this.

I have stood at my local station where a simple loss of detection in a set of points could have been dealt with by the station supervisor (or myself !) , but powerless to do so and the Luton MOM came , removed a simple obstruction , belted the point ends with a large spanner and restored detection , and released a trapped unit in the turnback siding and restored the up slow lines. This took an hour , and messed up the am peak.

danthekyle · 3 Mar 2018

We don't know the first passengers on to the track exited a train with power and heating. NR have said on Twitter that they initially turned the power off to clear ice from the 3rd rail (presumably after the train leaving Lewisham got stuck). Therefore the first passengers who exited after an hour may well have come from a train that had no power (perhaps they also assumed this would make the tracks safe).

On a different point, if the train having issues had cleared the platform at Lewisham, why couldn't the train stuck behind proceed into the platform at absolute caution? This would then allow all trains behind to use the other platform at Lewisham. Not an ideal situation, but much safer than what ended up occuring.

Daz28 · 3 Mar 2018

Since Southeastern were running an emergency timetable with frequencies no more than half hourly and several routes closed, perhaps they should have held trains in stations until the route to the next station was clear? Difficult with Lewisham being a critical junction.

Since they were running less than half their usual trains, could they have not employed some of their spare drivers to provide a visible on train presence?

Communication is key in events like this, so as a minimum all trains need to have a working PA and emergency lights that can last at least three hours without power. It’s not that hard to provide or retrofit.

thejuggler · 3 Mar 2018

These incidents suggest to me there is at present no effective contingency plan in place for the railways when a service stops unexpectedly.

There was a similar incident outside Leeds station in May last year in sweltering heat. Passengers could see the platfoms. It took 3 hours to get people off.

In this case was anything actually achieved in the three hours the passengers were stuck?

If the passengers hadn’t decided enough was enough how long would it have taken to actually rescue them?

ChiefPlanner · 3 Mar 2018

There will clearly be an enquiry into all this , - this "platform sharing" idea of bringing a train - even with just one set of doors into a haven is a very sensible option. Who is now qualified to do this ?

The days of a driver / guard going ahead with a shoe paddle to scrape ice off is long gone.

Expect a "Kentish Town" enquiry at the very least - FCC got a major fine over this , it will be remembered by some senior rail managers.

Robertj21a · 3 Mar 2018

I accept that we're all being terribly wise after the event, and hindsight is wonderful, but the Lewisham fiasco seems to have a whole host of inter-related issues that will have to be looked at, in depth. Perhaps the passengers who gave up waiting and left the train have done us all a big favour by highlighting the various issues - whether they be poor communication, poor infrastructure, poor training, poor management, poor staff etc.

Busaholic · 3 Mar 2018

It sounds like a most unpleasant experience for all involved, and taking far too long to resolve from a passenger point of view. However, putting it in some perspective given its location, my father was on a Dartford bound train that ground to a halt behind the trains that collided in December 1957 causing numerous deaths (from memory, a Hayes train and a steam Ramsgate express) in lethal freezing fog, commonly known now as the Lewisham Crash but certainly known at the time and forever in the local area as the St John's Crash: a bridge was brought down, which caused a lot of the fatalities, and conditions for the emergency services must have been as about as appalling as can be imagined. My father, an ex-military man of very precise habits, was always home in Eltham by 6.30 p.m. In those pre-mobile phone days, and pre- 24 hour news (we just had a wireless set anyway) my mother, a nervous woman with Parkinson's Disease, waited at home with me, aged 9, and my younger sister and brother, getting increasingly anxious and trying not to communicate it to them, but she couldn't hide it from me. My father eventually walked in at 1 a.m. (I think we'd heard about the crash before then, but probably only around 10 p.m.) and, being an unemotional man, made nothing of it: to be honest, he probably was unaware of the extent of the carnage, and didn't witness any of it. Anyway, I do know that everyone on his packed train from Holborn Viaduct remained on the train until they were escorted off: slam door stock meant anyone could have got off if they'd so chosen. There, a different age, and he left for work bang on time the next morning (not sure how he travelled though!)

Tom B · 3 Mar 2018

It would seem silly to provide commuter EMUs with emergency water etc as is carried on eg East Coast intercity units; whilst the latter may be quite some way from civilisation, the former are, in theory, near to help.

There should be a clear time limit by which passengers should be evacuated where practical to do so, and practicality must not be based on the convenience of the TOC (ie because it has to train staff to a certain level).

Tio Terry · 3 Mar 2018

I would have thought peeing out of a train door over the track in a third rail area brought another kind of electrocution risk!

Interesting comments above in relation to PA on the train. The GSM-R specification calls for the ability to allow signallers to make announcements to the train passengers, this goes back to CSR days when, under BR, the trains and the signallers worked for the same company. I doubt anyone in NR would now instruct passengers on a train, they would expect the TOC to do that.

For a building - say, Waterloo Station - where the PA system is also used in the case of evacuation for whatever reason, the back up battery supply has to be capable of supporting the system making continuous evacuation announcements for 24 hrs in the event of power supply failure - it's all covered by BS5839. Now, is the on-train PA classed as an audible evacuation system I wonder? If it isn't, should it be? Maybe that could be something the RAIB could look at if they do undertake some kind of investigation.

Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

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