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Redhill today (25/2/18) - What a shambles

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JonathanH

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Full closure is Sundays only.

Yes, I know - the Quarry line is open today but you would expect a possession on the slow lines if there is no service between Redhill and Gatwick and there doesn't appear to be one in place.
 
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Robsignals

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Yes, I know - the Quarry line is open today but you would expect a possession on the slow lines if there is no service between Redhill and Gatwick and there doesn't appear to be one in place.

Could they've got ahead last week so don't need to do anything and can't without the full possession?
 

Sunset route

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Has this work been cancelled today? There doesn't appear to be a possession in place on the lines south of Redhill (as would be marked by T3 markers on the live map feeds).

Obviously the amended train service (no trains Redhill to Gatwick) is running as that is what has been set up and rosters / stock plans are in place.

Yes, I know - the Quarry line is open today but you would expect a possession on the slow lines if there is no service between Redhill and Gatwick and there doesn't appear to be one in place.

Signallers do not have to put T3 or EO or anything else in the train describer berths when there is work taking place. The majority will when there is work as it acts as a reminder to themselves, but there is a small amount of my colleagues we will deliberately not put anything in the berths and only use Button reminders and magnetic labels. So in this case the arm chair watcher including myself whilst I’m on leave will not know if there is or is not a T3 possesses of the line in place.
 

JonathanH

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Thanks, that's interesting - in my time of armchair watching it is uncommon not to see a possession marked but clearly there are other ways of ensuring a possession is observed. There are loads of -EO- markers today north of Windmill Bridge Junction towards Norwood Junction.
 

Sunset route

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Thanks, that's interesting - in my time of armchair watching it is uncommon not to see a possession marked but clearly there are other ways of ensuring a possession is observed. There are loads of -EO- markers today north of Windmill Bridge Junction towards Norwood Junction.

It’s not a rule book requirement, so it’s left up to the individual signaller what they write in the train describer berths when work is taking place as they only indended and required to used to describe train IDs.
 

Robsignals

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Do you know the area? These roads are not normally an option from East Croydon to Purley; they have a habit of being unpredictable and can end up rammed solid from about 0600 to 2300, 7 days a week. It does depend on any events in the area, for example - but broadly speaking it is not a reliable way to run a service. Last time I had the pleasure of a replacement bus from East Croydon to Redhill on a Sunday, it took the best part of an hour and a quarter, and the quick bit was the A23 south of Hooley, where the M23 diverges. In fact, except in very poor weather or major roadworks (or the school run in Merstham, but not relevant on Sundays), the A23 heading south from Hooley to Redhill tends to be a brisk and uncomplicated run.

Going to Purley cuts off a chunk of that, which would be ideal, but seeing as the route is open to Redhill, running from there will barely be any worse, despite the road layout. The A23 through Redhill might have a chaotic layout, but it's usually quiet enough on a Sunday to accommodate some replacement buses. The town is most definitely not (yet) a leisure destination in the same way that you might consider anywhere in London to be - and the destination bits are usually the gastropubs and restaurants on the rural outskirts.

I'm not local but have been though the Croydon area on Sundays and didn't see a problem. It's the A23 from Redhill south to Gatwick that's not fast. I still think that Redhill station can't cope with the volume of passengers and number of buses needed so getting Gatwick passengers out of the mix would help and be a lot quicker than the delays experienced last Sunday.
 

Robsignals

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It’s not a rule book requirement, so it’s left up to the individual signaller what they write in the train describer berths when work is taking place as they only indended and required to used to describe train IDs.

Train Describer is not a safety critical system and must not be relied on for vital safety purposes.
 

Robsignals

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Eeerrr that’s why said it not a rule book requirement to use it for anything other than train IDs

Arguably doing so should be banned as it could all go blank leaving a trap for unwary signallers and others, I hope the proper measures are always applied.
 

Sunset route

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Arguably doing so should be banned as it could all go blank leaving a trap for unwary signallers and others, I hope the proper measures are always applied.

I’ve worked with train describers going blank, and they have never caused any signallers to make errors regarding possessions, but the odd train has taken a wrong but vialid route (but that’s another story), but on the other hand not, using lever collars, button and IPS reminders plus their computer based equivalent has.
 

Robsignals

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I’ve worked with train describers going blank, and they have never caused any signallers to make errors regarding possessions, but the odd train has taken a wrong but vialid route (but that’s another story), but on the other hand not, using lever collars, button and IPS reminders plus their computer based equivalent has.

Quite, but I can just see the RAIB report detailing the chain of events back from the incident to the disappearance of possession information on the Train Describer. While the signaller may not be directly at fault they may be criticised for putting them in and which others had wrongly come to rely on.
 

Sunset route

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Quite, but I can just see the RAIB report detailing the chain of events back from the incident to the disappearance of possession information on the Train Describer. While the signaller may not be directly at fault they may be criticised for putting them in and which others had wrongly come to rely on.

What like shift managers, LOMs and route controllers? lol

But in major ASCs, PSB, SCC, IECC and ROCs the signallers will virtually also put something in as an extra visual aid, it’s just it’s not mandated.
 

tsr

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I'm not local but have been though the Croydon area on Sundays and didn't see a problem. It's the A23 from Redhill south to Gatwick that's not fast. I still think that Redhill station can't cope with the volume of passengers and number of buses needed so getting Gatwick passengers out of the mix would help and be a lot quicker than the delays experienced last Sunday.

In which case, given I'm local, you'll forgive the voice of experience. The Croydon area is very hit and miss - as I say, from 0600 to 2300 (ish) you have every chance of hitting a random traffic jam, whether through roadworks, congestion, an accident or whatever - this making East Croydon a less than ideal option except overnight, when it's usually the more hospitable solution. Not to mention the crawl to actually reach the A23 from East Croydon station - lots of traffic lights and junctions!

At Redhill you simply need enough contingency options, which clearly weren't deployed or planned (not sure which, to be fair) the other weekend, until it was way too late. As I previously posted and agreed, I agree the area is vulnerable to hold ups, but you have a number of bus companies who can be deployed through what's sometimes known as an "Emergency Summons" mechanism to provide support. There are also ways of making people more comfortable - the Thameslink Programme, for example, had a generous refreshment voucher scheme if passengers became stranded due to London Bridge blockades coinciding with something else. Redhill town centre doesn't have to be viewed as a hellhole (even if that's what its reputation has become amongst some people over the last couple of decades)... provide some custom for some local outlets, hire a couple of heating devices for the crowds to wait near, and generally look after them.

What previously happened should never have occurred after prior experience from numerous good and bad replacement bus schemes run by GTR and their predecessors. Hopefully there won't be a repeat.
 

tsr

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Worth emphasising that there are planned to be half-hourly buses tomorrow in both directions between East Grinstead and Gatwick Airport, connecting with the normal service trains to/from London Victoria.

(East Croydon, Purley and/or Coulsdon Town will not be used by Gatwick Airport buses, on this occasion.)
 

London Trains

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Im very confused... this week RTT and NR says trains are running Victoria - Clapham Jct - Horsham - Three Bridges - Gatwick Airport via Sutton even though Sutton - Dorking apparently has an engineering block.
They're only from 9 to 6 half hourly so maybe they stopped the engineering during the middle of the day to stop the fiasco of last week!
 

LA50041

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Im very confused... this week RTT and NR says trains are running Victoria - Clapham Jct - Horsham - Three Bridges - Gatwick Airport via Sutton even though Sutton - Dorking apparently has an engineering block.
They're only from 9 to 6 half hourly so maybe they stopped the engineering during the middle of the day to stop the fiasco of last week!

As mentioned upthread, the Sutton resignalling block was postponed late on Tuesday to try and provide an alternative after last weeks fiasco.

I don't know specifics, but a lot of people in the office worked very hard to try and put something together with whatever crew/stock could be easily accessed and not be got back into place to not affect Monday.
There was no way there was time to get a service back in to Dorking
 

JonathanH

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Buses from a number of different operators today - mainly Go Ahead London as always but included SEe standee buses off the central London Red Arrow services in addition to the normal double deckers. Also Metrobus, Southdown psv, Go-Coach, Chalkwell, Reading Buses among others.
 

London Trains

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As mentioned upthread, the Sutton resignalling block was postponed late on Tuesday to try and provide an alternative after last weeks fiasco.

I don't know specifics, but a lot of people in the office worked very hard to try and put something together with whatever crew/stock could be easily accessed and not be got back into place to not affect Monday.
There was no way there was time to get a service back in to Dorking

They really should've put more than 1tph given that there weren't any Epsom or Dorking slows to deal with! They would've had a clear run between Sutton and Horsham.:rolleyes:
 

LA50041

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They really should've put more than 1tph given that there weren't any Epsom or Dorking slows to deal with! They would've had a clear run between Sutton and Horsham.:rolleyes:

Yes, I'm sure it would have been nice to have more than hourly, but if you dont have drivers theres no point in putting paths in and screwing the stock up.
 

Southern

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They really should've put more than 1tph given that there weren't any Epsom or Dorking slows to deal with! They would've had a clear run between Sutton and Horsham.:rolleyes:

They did manage a couple of extras off Victoria at 1436/1536 - former was borrowed from Epsom Up Siding and the latter was off Streatham Hill Shed.
 

RichJF

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Buses from a number of different operators today - mainly Go Ahead London as always but included SEe standee buses off the central London Red Arrow services in addition to the normal double deckers. Also Metrobus, Southdown psv, Go-Coach, Chalkwell, Reading Buses among others.

Add in Crawley Luxury, another company from Seaford & a couple of Metrobus single deckers at East Grinstead.
 

Iggy12a

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Worth emphasising that there are planned to be half-hourly buses tomorrow in both directions between East Grinstead and Gatwick Airport, connecting with the normal service trains to/from London Victoria.

(East Croydon, Purley and/or Coulsdon Town will not be used by Gatwick Airport buses, on this occasion.)

When asked, staff at Gatwick admitted that no-one had thought how the East Grinstead route would be used by passengers travelling using PAYG, since East Grinstead is not within the Oystercard area. In effect it was only an option for ticketed passengers. PAYG passengers needed to travel via Redhill in order to tap in/out.
 

JonathanH

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When asked, staff at Gatwick admitted that no-one had thought how the East Grinstead route would be used by passengers travelling using PAYG, since East Grinstead is not within the Oystercard area. In effect it was only an option for ticketed passengers. PAYG passengers needed to travel via Redhill in order to tap in/out.

Touch in at Gatwick and out at Victoria - I don't really see what the problem is. People should not have been looking to touch in / out at Redhill or East Grinstead. I don't see why the operators turn down revenue in this way.

Quite why no one has developed a stand alone reader for rail replacement in Oyster's development that is set up at the bus stop used for rail replacement is beyond me.

TfL rail replacement buses always imply that you should touch in before starting your replacement bus journey on the line diagrams in the window.
 

Antman

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Touch in at Gatwick and out at Victoria - I don't really see what the problem is. People should not have been looking to touch in / out at Redhill or East Grinstead. I don't see why the operators turn down revenue in this way.

Quite why no one has developed a stand alone reader for rail replacement in Oyster's development that is set up at the bus stop used for rail replacement is beyond me.

TfL rail replacement buses always imply that you should touch in before starting your replacement bus journey on the line diagrams in the window.

In my experience nobody bothers about revenue checks on rail replacement services, it probably reduces complaints if the journey has been for free.

Wouldn't it have just been more trouble than it was worth trying to ensure everyone touches in and out?
 

Robsignals

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Touch in at Gatwick and out at Victoria - I don't really see what the problem is. People should not have been looking to touch in / out at Redhill or East Grinstead. I don't see why the operators turn down revenue in this way.

Quite why no one has developed a stand alone reader for rail replacement in Oyster's development that is set up at the bus stop used for rail replacement is beyond me.

TfL rail replacement buses always imply that you should touch in before starting your replacement bus journey on the line diagrams in the window.

At Gatwick sending all arriving bus passengers in search of the station and up to the barriers and back can only add to the chaos, confusion and congestion normality found in this area!

Thankfully it seems to have been much better organised this week, at least it didn't make local news, probably helped that the weather wasn't attracting day visitors and anyone who saw last week's news coverage staying well away.

Conspiracy theory might be that GTR wanted some news coverage the first week to get the message to NR senior management, DfT and Ministers that NRs total blocks are getting out of control and a better balance needs to be found.
 
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infobleep

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RMT want all TOCs & FOCs stripped of their franchises.
The difference here is that passengers also want them stripped of those franchise or I should say more passengers than with other TOCs.
 

Robsignals

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The difference here is that passengers also want them stripped of those franchise or I should say more passengers than with other TOCs.

Passengers should understand that any problems with track and signalling are Network Rails responsibility and changing the Toc would achieve nothing. RMT have stated that they want to destroy privatisation by any means and have caused significant disruption to Southern in particular now moving on to other Tocs. They're demands are impossible as they're not interested in a settlement unless the company capitulates totally, they're certainly not concerned about the health and safety of passengers.
 

infobleep

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Passengers should understand that any problems with track and signalling are Network Rails responsibility and changing the Toc would achieve nothing. RMT have stated that they want to destroy privatisation by any means and have caused significant disruption to Southern in particular now moving on to other Tocs. They're demands are impossible as they're not interested in a settlement unless the company capitulates totally, they're certainly not concerned about the health and safety of passengers.
What 0aaawmgwes should understand and do understand are jo5 always the same thing.

A lack of drivers isn't the fault of Network Rail though, so my point stands in m6 opinion. Other TOCs don't havw quite the same problem. I dont have stats but they would back this up.

Anyway I don't want this to descend into a discussion on this, as there are other threads for it. However I couldn't let the comment from XDM pass.
 

LA50041

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What 0aaawmgwes should understand and do understand are jo5 always the same thing.

A lack of drivers isn't the fault of Network Rail though, so my point stands in m6 opinion. Other TOCs don't havw quite the same problem. I dont have stats but they would back this up.

Anyway I don't want this to descend into a discussion on this, as there are other threads for it. However I couldn't let the comment from XDM pass.
Any chance of translating this into English and explaining some of the abbreviations as per forum rules, jo5?, m6?, xdm?
 

30907

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Any chance of translating this into English and explaining some of the abbreviations as per forum rules, jo5?, m6?, xdm?
Think its major typo problems. Try this.

What passengers should understand and do understand are not always the same thing.
A lack of drivers isn't the fault of Network Rail though, so my point stands in my opinion. Other TOCs don't have quite the same problem. I dont have stats but they would back this up.

Not sure about XDM though! "him" or a username?
 
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