North West & Wales cross-border alliance

Bletchleyite · 27 Feb 2018

6Gman said:
For most of the day the North Wales Coast timetable consists of what? A three-car Llandudno-Manchester and a two-car Holyhead-Cardiff/Birmingham?

Does that suggest a passenger volume to justify electrification?

I think that's the wrong way to think about it. With diesel becoming so strongly deprecated, it's going to get to the point of wire it or close it unless alternative technologies are up to scratch, which for a long mainline isn't going to be any time soon.

RailUK Forums

Dentonian · 27 Feb 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I think that's the wrong way to think about it. With diesel becoming so strongly deprecated, it's going to get to the point of wire it or close it unless alternative technologies are up to scratch, which for a long mainline isn't going to be any time soon.

Perhaps demand would be higher if a 70 mile crawl from Manchester to Llandudno didn't cost virtually the same as being whisked to London (Off-peak returns tomorrow). Similarly, ATW charge a 60+% premium on Pendolinos to/from Chester, albeit the latter involves a change in Stoke.

Besides, diesel isn't "deprecated" per se. I've heard no media condemnation of diesel taxis, diesel HGVs and definately not diesel trains (apart from their age). Such condemnation is preserved for diesel (incl Hybrid and Euro 6) buses and very old diesel private cars.

Bletchleyite · 27 Feb 2018

London is already planning to replace the diesel taxi fleet with hybrid petrol-electrics, possibly even full-electrics in some cases. There isn't much of an option over HGVs at present, but believe me, it will come.

The days of burning dead dinosaurs are ending, and not before time.

6Gman · 27 Feb 2018

Dentonian said:
Similarly, ATW charge a 60+% premium on Pendolinos to/from Chester, albeit the latter involves a change in Stoke.

Eh? What 60% premium; what change at Stoke?

Dentonian · 27 Feb 2018

Bletchleyite said:
London is already planning to replace the diesel taxi fleet with hybrid petrol-electrics, possibly even full-electrics in some cases. There isn't much of an option over HGVs at present, but believe me, it will come.

The days of burning dead dinosaurs are ending, and not before time.

As usual, London is a separate case when it comes to any kind of transport - and he laws governing it. I doubt there would be such a move up here; young people love their uber so won't like anything that might put the fares up. Same probably goes for the media types. After condemning the fining of motorists for using the Oxford Road cycle (sorry, bus) lane all day yesterday, its taken all day today for BBC NW to accept that TFGM has secured agreement for more powers to stamp out ASB on buses, as well as Metrolink. Though, TBF, I can't see it being enforceable as buses are private property, and it has already been conceded that the only places where any powers could be used,would be TFGM owned bus stations

6Gman · 27 Feb 2018

Dentonian said:
Perhaps demand would be higher if a 70 mile crawl from Manchester to Llandudno didn't cost virtually the same as being whisked to London (Off-peak returns tomorrow).

I find £42.50 to Llandudno; £86.90 to London. Hardly "virtually the same". Are you looking at the £43.45 London Single?

Dentonian · 27 Feb 2018

6Gman said:
Eh? What 60% premium; what change at Stoke?

ATW: £18.50, Virgin/CC (via Stoke): £11.20. Northern charge about £13, but only a masochist would sit on a Sprinter for 90 minutes

Dentonian · 27 Feb 2018

6Gman said:
I find £42.50 to Llandudno; £86.90 to London. Hardly "virtually the same". Are you looking at the £43.45 London Single?

Sorry, give you that one.

LNW-GW Joint · 27 Feb 2018

Dentonian said:
ATW: £18.50, Virgin/CC (via Stoke): £11.20. Northern charge about £13, but only a masochist would sit on a Sprinter for 90 minutes

Are you talking about Chester-Manchester?
The VT-only fare is only valid via Crewe, not Stoke, 1tph with waits at Crewe.
ATW is Any Permitted (via Warrington, Northwich or Crewe), so you have 3tph.
Northern has a cheaper fare via Northwich, and will have a semi-fast to Victoria/Leeds soon.

6Gman · 27 Feb 2018

LNW-GW Joint said:
Are you talking about Chester-Manchester?
The VT-only fare is only valid via Crewe, not Stoke, 1tph with waits at Crewe.
ATW is Any Permitted (via Warrington, Northwich or Crewe), so you have 3tph.
Northern has a cheaper fare via Northwich, and will have a semi-fast to Victoria/Leeds soon.

Thank you for that clarification.

So, basically ...

1. ATW fares tend to be high (Crewe - Chester is more expensive than Crewe - Liverpool for 2/3 the distance);
2. Northern offer a cheaper fare by a slower route;
3. VT offer a still cheaper fare, but requires a change of train.

B&I · 27 Feb 2018

jcollins said:
This is why a western link could be of regional benefit. You could for instance have Barrow-Manchester Airport-Chester using one path between Piccadilly and the Airport instead of Barrow to Manchester Airport requiring one path and Chester to Manchester Airport requiring another. Piccadilly-Airport-Runcorn-Liverpool services would also be an option.

Lots of possibilities. Another would be to have services from Manchester Airport to Preston and all points north running a one-way loop through the airport link rather than reversing and taking an out and back path through Castefield.

LNW-GW Joint · 28 Feb 2018

6Gman said:
Thank you for that clarification.
So, basically ...
1. ATW fares tend to be high (Crewe - Chester is more expensive than Crewe - Liverpool for 2/3 the distance);
2. Northern offer a cheaper fare by a slower route;
3. VT offer a still cheaper fare, but requires a change of train.

Chester-Crewe has always been expensive back to BR days, ATW is just applying the usual inflation formula.
Chester-Stoke and Chester-Shrewsbury (valid via Crewe or Wrexham) are actually cheaper (CDR).
In fact Crewe-Chester-North Wales fares generally compare unfavourably with those in South Wales.
It's just how it is, probably from being tied to BR's WCML pricing policy.
Chester-Liverpool is down to Merseyrail's PTE-type fares.
The Northern/VT-only fares are fairly recent, they are allowed as ATW sets the Any Permitted fares.
For that reason ATW can't set an ATW-only fare.

4-SUB 4732 · 28 Feb 2018

jcollins said:
http://www.growthtrack360.com

I'm not sure how much they'll be able to do but they are going to push for:
- Improved access to Manchester Airport from Wales and the Midlands including western Airport link
- New direct links between North Wales and the East Midlands
- 3tph on North Wales coast
- Reinstatement of passenger services on Middlewich branch
- Extension of additional Manchester-Greenbank services to Chester
- Improve rolling stock
- Introduce direct services between Winsford and Warrington
- Improve services to Wrexham including direct Liverpool via Runcorn service.
- Additional loop at Poynton on WCML so that provision of local services can be improved.
- Connect Helsby to Merseyrail network.
- New Mid-Cheshire and WCML interchange station.
- Park and Ride station(s) on Chester to Crewe line.
- Electrification of lines including North Wales Coast, Chester to Crewe and Manchester to Liverpool via Warrington.

http://www.growthtrack360.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/WEST-WALES-RAIL-PROSPECTUS-FINAL.pdf

I approve of most of these.

For example, if there was electrification, it would make perfect sense to electrify Stockport - Chester via Northwich, Crewe - Chester (at least), Chester - Runcorn via Halton, Frodsham - Bank Quay, Hartford - Northwich - Sandbach and then a new through link from the Cheshire line to Man Airport and then out towards Styal or Heald Green and you've made capable a number of services to be electric. For starters, the Manchester to Chester 'stopper' via Altrincham would be able to be electric; you could have Pendolinos to Chester (if demand existed) or at the very least units (or an extension of the Trent Valley 350); you could use 319s from Chester to Lime Street via Halton; 319s from Chester to Liverpool via Bank Quay (a logical extension of the Bank Quay to Lime Street via St Helens); electric trains via Middlewich (and therefore an electrified diversionary route) and then have electric services from Chester to Manchester Airport as well.

North Wales to East Midlands direct trains are somewhat difficult as they would cross all trains at Crewe. What would perhaps be better is a half-hourly or even hourly slow and once every two hour fast service from Crewe across to Derby etc; with good connections off North Wales to Crewe services.

Not sure how best to operate along the North Wales Coast but 3tph seems like it could be too high. A Holyhead service an hour I can understand and a Llandudno; but not sure about the 3rd. Bangor starter? Additional Llandudno?

Middlewich is an interesting idea but surely only worthy of an hourly service towards Stockport and Piccadilly via Altrincham...

Direct Winsford and Hartford to Warrington trains are of course both sorely needed for local people but also very logical. I don't know how best to achieve it without new services entirely but one must assume it's possible. It doesn't seem sensible to decelerate Intercity trains but equally the two London Mid services an hour from Birmingham to Liverpool provide crucial links in that regard.

Considering how busy services are on the Welsh Marches and, more importantly, the 'need for speed' on the South Wales to Manchester, one could be forgiven for thinking that it might be better to operate an additional Cardiff Central to Chester via Wrexham service which could also pick up stops at Cwmbran, Pontypool, Craven Arms, Church Stretton and Leominster so the Manchester cuts a good 20 minutes off its journey. If electrification can't be forthcoming of the Halton Curve down to Chester then it would be possible to extend that Cardiff to Chester to Liverpool; otherwise it could run off down the North Wales Coast. Wrexham is better, surely, with a half-hourly semi-fast electric service up via Shotton and onto the Merseyrail network instead of the pokey little shuttle they provide.

It is entirely sensible to extend third rail to Helsby and link to better services on the Helsby corridor including the Halton Curve and towards Bank Quay. Third rail to Bank Quay is hardly going to work; but as far as Helsby definitely could. Only 2tph probably need run down to Helsby to connect with 2tph services towards Chester, Runcorn and Bank Quay but closing Elton and Stanlow stations and opening a new one outside Elton at the Chester Science Park as a Parkway would work well.

Not sure about opening another station on the WCML as Hartford and Greenbank are only 20 minutes walk apart. Then again, closing the pair and opening a bigger Parkway and having the connecting journeys from Winsford to places like Stockport, Manchester Airport and Chester or from places like Northwich to Liverpool, Runcorn and Preston might be an attractive option.

Where would they want the Park & Ride stations from Crewe to Chester? Perhaps at Waverton on the A41 and Calveley on the A51?

Wholly agree with electrifying via Warrington Central. Trafford Park to Allerton isn't a long way; although a bit of mixed third rail / overhead from South Parkway to Warrington Central could prove profitable for all to allow through AC electric trains from Liverpool to Manchester Airport and also towards Stoke / Crewe via Wilmslow; and a half-hourly DC service to Warrington with two and hour turning back at Hunts Cross.

Considering the current service patterns etc, the best way I can see to make it all work on the Main Line is:
- Reduce Euston to Birmingham New Street Pendolino to half-hourly 11 car with associated bolstering of Chiltern trains so that there's a more even spread of capacity.
- 1tph Birmingham International to Preston LM Aventra 5 car stopping also at the likes of Hartford and Leyland; with passengers expected to connect with Scottish trains at Warrington.
- 2tph Euston to Glasgow Central via Trent Valley. One 'fast', one 'slow' including stops such as Milton Keynes and Crewe.
- 1tph Birmingham New Street to Liverpool Lime Street LM 350 stopping at Winsford, Hartford etc.
- 1tph Birmingham New Street to Manchester Piccadilly LM 350 with some additional stops e.g. Congleton and Cheadle Hulme for connectivity.
- 1tph Birmingham New Street to Chester LM 350 via more local stations towards Wolves.
- 1tph Cross Country to Manchester Piccadilly via Stoke.
- 1tph Cross Country to Liverpool Lime Street via Runcorn, keeping up 2tph Birmingham to Liverpool but also adding Liverpool to the Intercity map.
- 1tph Euston to Liverpool Lime Street.

As for the North Wales area:
- 1tph Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly
- 1tph Chester to Liverpool Lime Street via Halton
- 1tph Chester to Leeds via Victoria Northern Connect
- 1tph Cardiff Central to Bangor semi-fast
- 1tph Crewe to Holyhead (dovetailed half-hourly with the Birmingham to Chester)
- 1tph Manchester Airport to Llandudno via Piccadilly and Earlestown

That's in the immediate term. Who knows how it could look if certain projects are done?

cle · 28 Feb 2018

"As for the North Wales area:
- 1tph Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly"

you wot?

6Gman · 28 Feb 2018

4-SUB 4732 said:
I approve of most of these.

For example, if there was electrification, it would make perfect sense to electrify Stockport - Chester via Northwich, Crewe - Chester (at least), Chester - Runcorn via Halton, Frodsham - Bank Quay, Hartford - Northwich - Sandbach and then a new through link from the Cheshire line to Man Airport and then out towards Styal or Heald Green and you've made capable a number of services to be electric. For starters, the Manchester to Chester 'stopper' via Altrincham would be able to be electric; you could have Pendolinos to Chester (if demand existed) or at the very least units (or an extension of the Trent Valley 350); you could use 319s from Chester to Lime Street via Halton; 319s from Chester to Liverpool via Bank Quay (a logical extension of the Bank Quay to Lime Street via St Helens); electric trains via Middlewich (and therefore an electrified diversionary route) and then have electric services from Chester to Manchester Airport as well.

North Wales to East Midlands direct trains are somewhat difficult as they would cross all trains at Crewe. What would perhaps be better is a half-hourly or even hourly slow and once every two hour fast service from Crewe across to Derby etc; with good connections off North Wales to Crewe services.

Not sure how best to operate along the North Wales Coast but 3tph seems like it could be too high. A Holyhead service an hour I can understand and a Llandudno; but not sure about the 3rd. Bangor starter? Additional Llandudno?

Middlewich is an interesting idea but surely only worthy of an hourly service towards Stockport and Piccadilly via Altrincham...

Direct Winsford and Hartford to Warrington trains are of course both sorely needed for local people but also very logical. I don't know how best to achieve it without new services entirely but one must assume it's possible. It doesn't seem sensible to decelerate Intercity trains but equally the two London Mid services an hour from Birmingham to Liverpool provide crucial links in that regard.

Considering how busy services are on the Welsh Marches and, more importantly, the 'need for speed' on the South Wales to Manchester, one could be forgiven for thinking that it might be better to operate an additional Cardiff Central to Chester via Wrexham service which could also pick up stops at Cwmbran, Pontypool, Craven Arms, Church Stretton and Leominster so the Manchester cuts a good 20 minutes off its journey. If electrification can't be forthcoming of the Halton Curve down to Chester then it would be possible to extend that Cardiff to Chester to Liverpool; otherwise it could run off down the North Wales Coast. Wrexham is better, surely, with a half-hourly semi-fast electric service up via Shotton and onto the Merseyrail network instead of the pokey little shuttle they provide.

It is entirely sensible to extend third rail to Helsby and link to better services on the Helsby corridor including the Halton Curve and towards Bank Quay. Third rail to Bank Quay is hardly going to work; but as far as Helsby definitely could. Only 2tph probably need run down to Helsby to connect with 2tph services towards Chester, Runcorn and Bank Quay but closing Elton and Stanlow stations and opening a new one outside Elton at the Chester Science Park as a Parkway would work well.

Not sure about opening another station on the WCML as Hartford and Greenbank are only 20 minutes walk apart. Then again, closing the pair and opening a bigger Parkway and having the connecting journeys from Winsford to places like Stockport, Manchester Airport and Chester or from places like Northwich to Liverpool, Runcorn and Preston might be an attractive option.

Where would they want the Park & Ride stations from Crewe to Chester? Perhaps at Waverton on the A41 and Calveley on the A51?

Wholly agree with electrifying via Warrington Central. Trafford Park to Allerton isn't a long way; although a bit of mixed third rail / overhead from South Parkway to Warrington Central could prove profitable for all to allow through AC electric trains from Liverpool to Manchester Airport and also towards Stoke / Crewe via Wilmslow; and a half-hourly DC service to Warrington with two and hour turning back at Hunts Cross.

Considering the current service patterns etc, the best way I can see to make it all work on the Main Line is:
- Reduce Euston to Birmingham New Street Pendolino to half-hourly 11 car with associated bolstering of Chiltern trains so that there's a more even spread of capacity.
- 1tph Birmingham International to Preston LM Aventra 5 car stopping also at the likes of Hartford and Leyland; with passengers expected to connect with Scottish trains at Warrington.
- 2tph Euston to Glasgow Central via Trent Valley. One 'fast', one 'slow' including stops such as Milton Keynes and Crewe.
- 1tph Birmingham New Street to Liverpool Lime Street LM 350 stopping at Winsford, Hartford etc.
- 1tph Birmingham New Street to Manchester Piccadilly LM 350 with some additional stops e.g. Congleton and Cheadle Hulme for connectivity.
- 1tph Birmingham New Street to Chester LM 350 via more local stations towards Wolves.
- 1tph Cross Country to Manchester Piccadilly via Stoke.
- 1tph Cross Country to Liverpool Lime Street via Runcorn, keeping up 2tph Birmingham to Liverpool but also adding Liverpool to the Intercity map.
- 1tph Euston to Liverpool Lime Street.

As for the North Wales area:
- 1tph Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly
- 1tph Chester to Liverpool Lime Street via Halton
- 1tph Chester to Leeds via Victoria Northern Connect
- 1tph Cardiff Central to Bangor semi-fast
- 1tph Crewe to Holyhead (dovetailed half-hourly with the Birmingham to Chester)
- 1tph Manchester Airport to Llandudno via Piccadilly and Earlestown

That's in the immediate term. Who knows how it could look if certain projects are done?

All well and good, but ...

Massively expensive!

Dentonian · 28 Feb 2018

LNW-GW Joint said:
Are you talking about Chester-Manchester?
The VT-only fare is only valid via Crewe, not Stoke, 1tph with waits at Crewe.
ATW is Any Permitted (via Warrington, Northwich or Crewe), so you have 3tph.
Northern has a cheaper fare via Northwich, and will have a semi-fast to Victoria/Leeds soon.

Sorry - rushing things last night; Yes, Crewe not Stoke. Transfer time (when I've done it) is about 25 minutes, so overall only slightly slower than ATW. Bit confused with the reference to Northern being cheaper via Northwich. Does this mean if you break your journey in Northwich, its cheaper than "direct"? Not that anyone would break their journey there as it simply adds an hour to the already slow journey and, of course, Northwich is a classic rail station - a good mile or more from the town centre, so its not even practical to "nip" into town whilst waiting. I don't use Victoria as with transfer time and waiting time (Metrolink of MetroShuttle 2) it adds a good 20 minutes plus each way.

pemma · 28 Feb 2018

Dentonian said:
Sorry - rushing things last night; Yes, Crewe not Stoke. Transfer time (when I've done it) is about 25 minutes, so overall only slightly slower than ATW. Bit confused with the reference to Northern being cheaper via Northwich. Does this mean if you break your journey in Northwich, its cheaper than "direct"? Not that anyone would break their journey there as it simply adds an hour to the already slow journey and, of course, Northwich is a classic rail station - a good mile or more from the town centre, so its not even practical to "nip" into town whilst waiting. I don't use Victoria as with transfer time and waiting time (Metrolink of MetroShuttle 2) it adds a good 20 minutes plus each way.

There's 3 types of walk up tickets available for Manchester to Chester:
1. Any Permitted
2. Route: Altrincham
3. Route: VTWC only

Only the first allows you to travel on ATW services between Manchester and Chester via Warrington. The second isn't operator specific so if you bought that ticket you could catch one of the trains which only run between Chester and Stockport and catch any service between Stockport and Manchester, but you do have to travel through Altrincham station by train (not Metrolink and all trains which go through Altrincham go through Northwich), you certainly don't have to alight at the routing point! The third is operator specific which requires you, not only to travel via Crewe but to only use Virgin services to travel by that route.

Virgin have a number of VTWC fares in the Manchester area which undercut the Any Permitted fare - it's the same for Stockport to Manchester, Wilmslow to Manchester, Crewe to Manchester etc.

There's also similar examples to the Route: Altrincham fare on other routes, you can get a Manchester to Leeds Route: Hebden Bridge ticket or a Manchester to Formby Route: Wigan ticket. In all 3 cases it allows Northern to get a greater share of the revenue than they would get from a sale of an Any Permitted ticket.

Dentonian · 28 Feb 2018

jcollins said:
There's 3 types of walk up tickets available for Manchester to Chester:
1. Any Permitted
2. Route: Altrincham
3. Route: VTWC only

Only the first allows you to travel on ATW services between Manchester and Chester via Warrington. The second isn't operator specific so if you bought that ticket you could catch one of the trains which only run between Chester and Stockport and catch any service between Stockport and Manchester, but you do have to travel through Altrincham station by train (not Metrolink and all trains which go through Altrincham go through Northwich), you certainly don't have to alight at the routing point! The third is operator specific which requires you, not only to travel via Crewe but to only use Virgin services to travel by that route.

Virgin have a number of VTWC fares in the Manchester area which undercut the Any Permitted fare - it's the same for Stockport to Manchester, Wilmslow to Manchester, Crewe to Manchester etc.

There's also similar examples to the Route: Altrincham fare on other routes, you can get a Manchester to Leeds Route: Hebden Bridge ticket or a Manchester to Formby Route: Wigan ticket. In all 3 cases it allows Northern to get a greater share of the revenue than they would get from a sale of an Any Permitted ticket.

Thanks, for anything heading in the least bit south from Manchester, I would board at Stockport - despite the climb up the hill! So at least knock 10 minutes off Northern, but that wouldn't make it attractive enough. Also, generally (and presumably based on the same walk up types) Stockport is slightly cheaper in each case. TBH I don't even know which route out of Piccadilly ATW take - except its none at all until they fix the wheels apparently (lol)

LNW-GW Joint · 1 Mar 2018

From Piccadilly ATW normally route via Oxford Road, Newton le Willows and Warrington BQ to Chester, often having started from Manchester Airport.
But they can also run from Piccadilly via Altrincham (non-stop) when there is engineering work on the Warrington route, which sometimes happens at weekends.
And to get their trains from Chester to Piccadilly to operate the Manchester-South Wales service, they run early trains from Chester to Crewe and then on to Manchester.

pemma · 1 Mar 2018

LNW-GW Joint said:
From Piccadilly ATW normally route via Oxford Road, Newton le Willows and Warrington BQ to Chester, often having started from Manchester Airport.
But they can also run from Piccadilly via Altrincham (non-stop) when there is engineering work on the Warrington route, which sometimes happens at weekends.
And to get their trains from Chester to Piccadilly to operate the Manchester-South Wales service, they run early trains from Chester to Crewe and then on to Manchester.

I think there's one very early Chester to Manchester Airport service booked to run non-stop via Altrincham.

Regarding fares from Stockport to Chester, the Any Permitted is the same price as Manchester to Chester, as are the VTWC only fares but the Route:Altrincham fares are slightly cheaper than from Manchester.

sw1ller · 1 Mar 2018

jcollins said:
I think there's one very early Chester to Manchester Airport service booked to run non-stop via Altrincham.

Regarding fares from Stockport to Chester, the Any Permitted is the same price as Manchester to Chester, as are the VTWC only fares but the Route:Altrincham fares are slightly cheaper than from Manchester.

First and last trains are booked to run via Altrincham for the top link to keep route knowledge up.

Dentonian · 1 Mar 2018

LNW-GW Joint said:
From Piccadilly ATW normally route via Oxford Road, Newton le Willows and Warrington BQ to Chester, often having started from Manchester Airport.
But they can also run from Piccadilly via Altrincham (non-stop) when there is engineering work on the Warrington route, which sometimes happens at weekends.
And to get their trains from Chester to Piccadilly to operate the Manchester-South Wales service, they run early trains from Chester to Crewe and then on to Manchester.

Thanks. As I thought, ATW is not relevant to Stockport then.

kieron · 3 Mar 2018

Dentonian said:
Thanks. As I thought, ATW is not relevant to Stockport then.

What do you mean by this? ATW trains go through Stockport all day, so they seem pretty relevant to me. They also run quite a few other services which aren't on LNW-GW Joint's list.

Just for the record, page 21 of the prospectus says "Connectivity with Liverpool John Lennon Airport is also crucial..." as part of its justification for a service between somewhere in North Wales and Liverpool. There's no mention of capital spending in Liverpool CC's area, though. I suspect that's on someone else's wishlist.

There's a Network Rail presentation about electrification here. It gives "North Wales Electrification" a poor BCR, and I think (based on the selection process they describe) this includes Chester-Crewe. It doesn't (as far as I can tell) say anything is impossible.

The NR presentation does make different assumptions to the West and Wales prospectus. In particular, NR assume that HS2 won't be built, whereas the prospectus assumes it will.

B&I · 3 Mar 2018

4-SUB 4732 said:
I approve of most of these.

For example, if there was electrification, it would make perfect sense to electrify Stockport - Chester via Northwich, Crewe - Chester (at least), Chester - Runcorn via Halton, Frodsham - Bank Quay, Hartford - Northwich - Sandbach and then a new through link from the Cheshire line to Man Airport and then out towards Styal or Heald Green and you've made capable a number of services to be electric. For starters, the Manchester to Chester 'stopper' via Altrincham would be able to be electric; you could have Pendolinos to Chester (if demand existed) or at the very least units (or an extension of the Trent Valley 350); you could use 319s from Chester to Lime Street via Halton; 319s from Chester to Liverpool via Bank Quay (a logical extension of the Bank Quay to Lime Street via St Helens); electric trains via Middlewich (and therefore an electrified diversionary route) and then have electric services from Chester to Manchester Airport as well.

This is a sensible way to look at electrification - the more entire areas are electrified, rather than the odd line running through them, the more services can be moved to electric overall.

Dentonian · 3 Mar 2018

kieron said:
What do you mean by this? ATW trains go through Stockport all day, so they seem pretty relevant to me. They also run quite a few other services which aren't on LNW-GW Joint's list.

The context was specifically Piccadilly/Stockport to Chester.

Holly · 4 Mar 2018

craigybagel said:
Lots and lots of unusually low bridges, and the aforementioned tunnel under a canal. If it was such an easy fix do you think it wouldn't have been done already? It's been suggested in the past it might be cheaper to just build an entirely new line then to rebuild this line to the standard required for OHLE.

Philip said:
The big obstacle as I said earlier is the short tunnel under the canal at Christleton. The bore is very tight in height clearance so I doubt even the pantograph would fit. The problem is the canal isn't much higher so as things are I doubt they could increase the height of the bore without disturbing the canal bed. The two locks nearby, either side of the tunnel, would have to be rebuilt so as to increase the height of the pound in between which crosses the railway. (ie. make Greenfield lock deeper and Christleton lock above it shallower, so the level of the canal beyond remains the same)

There is a feasible alternative though - a completely new right of way for Crewe - Chester. Built to UIC standards so as to open the possibility of terminating HS2 trains in Chester.

In fact, even better, extend to Hooton where lots of space to build huge car parks is available. And spare platforms for terminating long distance trains.

cle · 4 Mar 2018

Surely it cannot be cheaper to build a new ROW to Chester? It would allow higher line speeds of course, but it's already just 23-25 mins non-stop (by default) - assuming anything going that way had stopped at Crewe, how much time could be saved before having to decelerate for Chester, where everything would stop?

And assuming Chester's station would still be used, it would be quite a complicated civil and you'd be rejoining the existing line a fair way out of town anyway.

The more wires proliferate, the better the BCR must become surely. And for future projects, like Warrington/Halton to Chester, for example. The nascent Northern 319 network will only help this further, and provide new journey options.

I think they should invest, and redevelop the current route, which is pretty direct. Maybe some journey time savings could come from the wires (less relevant on a non-stop stretch than many stops, granted) - and some line speed improvements. Get the Welsh and the Irish/EU to chip in!

Polarbear · 4 Mar 2018

Chester-Crewe electrification could be done, but it won't be cheap, for reasons outlined earlier (lots of low bridges & one very tight tunnel).

If money were no object, I'd look to building a new single line alignment close to the existing line, then singling the current line, which should give the necessary clearances for wires.

As for the Christleton question, I'd be inclined to re-build the canal, so it crosses the line on a skew bridge at a slightly higher level than at present. Yes, you would need to add locks at either end of the raised section, but it would be possible. Then you could open out the rail tunnel.

All very expensive though, so not expecting it to happen.

snowball · 4 Mar 2018

Polarbear said:
As for the Christleton question, I'd be inclined to re-build the canal, so it crosses the line on a skew bridge at a slightly higher level than at present. Yes, you would need to add locks at either end of the raised section, but it would be possible. Then you could open out the rail tunnel.

There already appears to be a spread-out flight of about half a dozen locks as the canal climbs south-east out of Chester. The rail tunnel is between the last-but-one lock of the series and the last lock. So it would be a matter of moving the last lock to before the tunnel.

Holly · 5 Mar 2018

cle said:
Surely it cannot be cheaper to build a new ROW to Chester? It would allow higher line speeds of course, but it's already just 23-25 mins non-stop (by default) - assuming anything going that way had stopped at Crewe, how much time could be saved before having to decelerate for Chester, where everything would stop?
...
And assuming Chester's station would still be used, it would be quite a complicated civil and you'd be rejoining the existing line a fair way out of town anyway. ...

Probably not cheaper, but certainly feasible. Very little infrastructure in the way, pretty much green fields all the way from Chester to the outskirts of Crewe.
And as has been discussed already, the alternative - retrofit to OHLE would be relatively difficult and expensive for the few miles involved. Also the cost of a new ROW could be offset by selling off the old one for development. And a new ROW would be cheaper to maintain than the old one.
It might cost a little more, but you end up with a lot more railway for the money spent.

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