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Discussion of transgender issues

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HainultLoop

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They are extant, but they don't have to be.
Gender roles are in my view obsolete, a relic of a bygone age. We in the twenty first century shouldn't be judging people, assuming things about them because of the stereotypes of their gender, but we should view them as individuals, not whether they conform or do not to what society thinks of their gender. The longer we reinforce gender roles in our society, for example a woman must stay at home, a man must work for the family, the longer people will feel pressured to conform them and therefore lose their individuality, something we should be promoting as a society.
 
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AlterEgo

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Gender roles are in my view obsolete, a relic of a bygone age. We in the twenty first century shouldn't be judging people, assuming things about them because of the stereotypes of their gender, but we should view them as individuals, not whether they conform or do not to what society thinks of their gender. The longer we reinforce gender roles in our society, for example a woman must stay at home, a man must work for the family, the longer people will feel pressured to conform them and therefore lose their individuality, something we should be promoting as a society.

My mother who stayed home to look after me in my infancy lost none of her individuality. Neither did my father who went out driving trains.
 

Bromley boy

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Gender roles are in my view obsolete, a relic of a bygone age. We in the twenty first century shouldn't be judging people, assuming things about them because of the stereotypes of their gender, but we should view them as individuals, not whether they conform or do not to what society thinks of their gender. The longer we reinforce gender roles in our society, for example a woman must stay at home, a man must work for the family, the longer people will feel pressured to conform them and therefore lose their individuality, something we should be promoting as a society.

You may consider them obsolete, but the fact is the majority of people evidently do not. So long as society doesn’t force people to conform to them (and it doesn’t any longer, or at least to a lesser extent than ever before), who are you to judge?
 

Bromley boy

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If someone holds an opinion that I consider to be wrong to the point of being harmful (racist or homophobic or just general subscription to neoconservative doctrine) then I will hopefully challenge that person.

That’s fine, although it’s quite wrong to conflate conservatism or any kind with racism and homophobia. There’s plenty of racism and homophobia on the left!

Personally I tend to believe society should give people freedom and empower them to live the best lives they can. To me that generally favours small government, light touch regulation and minimal interference into peoples’ lives. Does that make me a conservative? By some measures it probably does, although I prefer “liberal”. I’m certainly not racist or homophobic. I’m also a trade union member.

It’s generally a very bad idea to pigeon-hole people into little boxes. Real life is more shades of grey than black and white.

The right-wing is equally guilty of the same sort of groupthink. See the "red scare" smears on Jeremy Corbyn which you yourself have perpetuated on other threads.

I don’t believe I’ve smeared Corbyn. I’ve made no secret of the fact I think he’s a dangerous extremist who lacks good judgement, is unfit for government and that in my view a Labour government under his stewardship would do a great deal of damage to this country.

I agree with you on the moral superiority thing, though I'm guilty of it myself at times and it's hard not to be because if you truly believe in a cause it can become a moral imperative.

The trick is to remain detached and not allow emotion to cloud good reasoning - no doubt that’s something we all struggle with!
 

61653 HTAFC

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That’s fine, although it’s quite wrong to conflate conservatism or any kind with racism and homophobia. There’s plenty of racism and homophobia on the left!

Personally I tend to believe society should give people freedom and empower them to live the best lives they can. To me that generally favours small government, light touch regulation and minimal interference into peoples’ lives. Does that make me a conservative? By some measures it probably does, although I prefer “liberal”. I’m certainly not racist or homophobic. I’m also a trade union member.

It’s generally a very bad idea to pigeon-hole people into little boxes. Real life is more shades of grey than black and white.



I don’t believe I’ve smeared Corbyn. I’ve made no secret of the fact I think he’s a dangerous extremist who lacks good judgement, is unfit for government and that in my view a Labour government under his stewardship would do a great deal of damage to this country.



The trick is to remain detached and not allow emotion to cloud good reasoning - no doubt that’s something we all struggle with!
Describing Corbyn as a dangerous extremist is a bit much... he's not even that far left in terms of policy. Jacob Rees-Mogg on the other hand... The 18th century called, it wants its idiot back!

But we're well off-piste now from transgender issues and it was me that started that diversion, so apologies all round.
 

GatwickDepress

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Oh I got you. I'm just sick and tired of the big words and BS and the labelling. You're not stating anything coherent. You're just trying to blab to me about how "im the problem" and giving no real substance to your arguement. It's literally the ramblings of a madman But when I say something or when I express my opinion I'm a bigoted homophobic racist that needs to head back to the klan meeting.
You talk about 'butt hurt' and how its 'my right to be offended', yet you're the one acting like the victim here. You're the special snowflake that you hate so much. I'd be laughing if it wasn't so tragic.

I responded to your posts with facts. I have worked with the Gender Identity Clinic in London. I'm hoping to be a mental health nurse specialising in this field, so please forgive me if I'm a little frustrated with you.

You responded to none of my comments, you're not being coherent, your arguments have about as much substance as a can of Tesco Everyday Value beans has flavour. Everything you have said can and has been proven to be nonsense.

Feminist are just women trying to be like men who have emasculated men to act and take on female roles so you end up with mental disorders like this.
Explain this.
 

Up_Tilt_390

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Describing Corbyn as a dangerous extremist is a bit much... he's not even that far left in terms of policy. Jacob Rees-Mogg on the other hand... The 18th century called, it wants its idiot back!

Though the Labour manifesto in 2017 wasn't really extreme, referring to Corbyn as far-left is not really that far-fetched. I certainly don't think anyone who praises Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro could be considered a centrist. The fact Corbyn thinks Venezuela is a better way of doing things despite people literally resorting to eating their pets, along with thinking Fidel Castro was a champion of social justice despite the fact homosexuals had suffered persecution (some likely finding themselves in firing squads), shows that he is very left-wing. If he was moderate I doubt he'd be so blind to how terrible socialism has been, nor how badly socialist dictators truly were, but no.

He literally thinks countries like Cuba and Venezuela are fairer, better ways of doing things when it comes to making a society even despite horrible living conditions. Not to mention some of his closest chums are pretty left too. John McDonnell is a self-confessed Marxist despite denying it now, and Diane Abbot thinks Chairman Mao did more good than harm, despite the deaths of anywhere from twenty to eighty million people. Labour aren't far left as a whole, but Corbyn and Co. could certainly be considered such.
 
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NSEFAN

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Gender roles are in my view obsolete, a relic of a bygone age. We in the twenty first century shouldn't be judging people, assuming things about them because of the stereotypes of their gender, but we should view them as individuals, not whether they conform or do not to what society thinks of their gender. The longer we reinforce gender roles in our society, for example a woman must stay at home, a man must work for the family, the longer people will feel pressured to conform them and therefore lose their individuality, something we should be promoting as a society.
I don't think it's as simple as, "if we just stopped talking about these stereotypes, people would be more empowered". Gender stereotypes evolve as society does, and society changes slowly but surely in response to things like technological improvements (a lot less work now requires great physical effort because we have machines to do the bulk of it), economic factors (unless they have a high-paying job, it's no longer affordable for most couples to bring up a family where one parent stays at home all day) and better education (knowing more about the world helps us all make informed decisions about what we want to be). As a result, gender stereotypes will probably become diluted naturally over time (indeed they already have; I think you'd struggle to find many young people who genuinely believe that men have to be the workers and women have to stay at home with the kids etc).
 

AlterEgo

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Some men do lactate naturally.

As a rule? No, they don’t. This is a very tiny proportion of men you’re talking about, and not at all relevant to a discussion about prevailing gender roles within society.

A gamete is a haploid cell. It doesn't have a sex as it isn't a person (it's literally half a person).

Nobody was claiming an egg to be a person. Someone asserted eggs are female. This is correct.

Eggs are female gametes.
 

DarloRich

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WOW. This all seems a bit heavy. Cant we just treat people as people? If that person wants to be treated as a woman despite being born a man then fair play to them.
 

najaB

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This is a very tiny proportion of men you’re talking about, and not at all relevant to a discussion about prevailing gender roles within society.
I agree. Because breastfeeding isn't a gender role, it's a biological one.
 

AlterEgo

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I agree. Because breastfeeding isn't a gender role, it's a biological one.

So is childbirth, but the fact is, biology isn’t the end of explaining why women generally get pregnant and breastfeed.

The principal reason that women get pregnant and have babies is because they want to be mothers (this assumes planned pregnancies). A lot of women, as they get older, feel pressure to become mothers, because they feel that’s what society expects of them. Girls are conditioned to be mothers from an early age, by gendered toys and stereotypes.

I’d argue that the societal expectation of women performing that gender role of becoming a mother is quite fundamental, and therefore, on balance, a good thing. Where society needs to catch up is in ensuring young boys are conditioned to be (responsible) fathers, which I’m not sure is the case.

I don’t believe that in a two parent, two gender household it’s either common or desirable for both parents to have exactly equivalent responsibilities. This isn’t the case, in general, at the moment, and never has been in Western society.

The scandal of single parent families and deadbeat fathers isn’t that all the burden of care is picked up by a sole parent. It’s that the child is denied the influence of a parent in the (usually male, let’s be honest) gender role.
 

61653 HTAFC

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WOW. This all seems a bit heavy. Cant we just treat people as people? If that person wants to be treated as a woman despite being born a man then fair play to them.
+1 (Even though I've been drawn into some of the silliness, and still am, see below).

So is childbirth, but the fact is, biology isn’t the end of explaining why women generally get pregnant and breastfeed.

The principal reason that women get pregnant and have babies is because they want to be mothers (this assumes planned pregnancies). A lot of women, as they get older, feel pressure to become mothers, because they feel that’s what society expects of them. Girls are conditioned to be mothers from an early age, by gendered toys and stereotypes.

I’d argue that the societal expectation of women performing that gender role of becoming a mother is quite fundamental, and therefore, on balance, a good thing. Where society needs to catch up is in ensuring young boys are conditioned to be (responsible) fathers, which I’m not sure is the case.

I don’t believe that in a two parent, two gender household it’s either common or desirable for both parents to have exactly equivalent responsibilities. This isn’t the case, in general, at the moment, and never has been in Western society.

The scandal of single parent families and deadbeat fathers isn’t that all the burden of care is picked up by a sole parent. It’s that the child is denied the influence of a parent in the (usually male, let’s be honest) gender role.

First bolding: In the context of environmental issues, overpopulation is a problem even in the face of falling birth rates in the West. We don't need everyone to breed and certainly shouldn't be making a concerted effort to encourage it.
I made a decision quite early in life that I didn't want to be a parent, and nobody will be able to convince me to revisit this decision. I know that it's the right choice for me and to criticise that is both irresponsible and crass. Yet barely a week goes by where someone does exactly that: if I were a woman who had chosen not to reproduce it'd probably be barely a day.

Second/third bolding: Firstly why are single-parent families a "scandal" exactly? I grew up in a stable two-parent, two-gender household but many of my friends didn't. There are many factors that influence upbringing and the make-up of home life is just one of those. The stability of the home environment is far more crucial than the number of parents or gender of parents in that home environment.

A concerted effort to maintain the nuclear family or to maintain traditional gender roles is unnecessary because most people generally will fall into the "default" with no outside intervention.
 

Temple Meads

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WOW. This all seems a bit heavy. Cant we just treat people as people? If that person wants to be treated as a woman despite being born a man then fair play to them.
Hear, hear!

It's been an interesting debate, but I think this is what it boils down to! :)
 

AlterEgo

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First bolding: In the context of environmental issues, overpopulation is a problem even in the face of falling birth rates in the West. We don't need everyone to breed and certainly shouldn't be making a concerted effort to encourage it.

It’s not about overpopulating the planet, my point is that women need to have some sort of drive to be mothers to actually, you know, become mothers. Some of this drive will be biological and hormonal and some of it will be societal. It’s important that the majority of women feel that motherhood is something expected of them, because that’s how our species propagates.

I am not trying to subtly suggest trans or gay people are “not contributing” - it’s actually a help that some people don’t become parents for the reasons you outline. But please do recognise the necessity of societal norms in this area - young girls are conditioned to be mothers not because of some perverse man-controlled scheme, but because we need the majority of women to actually *be* mothers to survive as a species. All I’m trying to do is illustrate that gender roles, stereotypes and expectations are not something awful to be ripped up for the convenience of a few.

I made a decision quite early in life that I didn't want to be a parent, and nobody will be able to convince me to revisit this decision. I know that it's the right choice for me and to criticise that is both irresponsible and crass. Yet barely a week goes by where someone does exactly that: if I were a woman who had chosen not to reproduce it'd probably be barely a day.

I hope you aren’t suggesting I’m criticising your choice. I wasn’t. See above.

Second/third bolding: Firstly why are single-parent families a "scandal" exactly?

Do you think absentee fathers are an acceptable problem? Aye sure it just doesn’t matter, eh?

It’s a complete scandal than feckless men father children and either avoid contributing financially or being present in the child’s life.

This isn’t a post to scandalise single mothers. Quite the opposite. Studies show that children from single parent families generally have lower outcomes in life than those from “traditional” families.

A concerted effort to maintain the nuclear family or to maintain traditional gender roles is unnecessary because most people generally will fall into the "default" with no outside intervention.

That isn’t true. The nuclear family and the presence of two parents, despite its proven success in overall raising children with better life prospects than non-nuclear families, is a declining trend.

If this was any other factor, like income equality or access to education, we’d all be agreed in addressing it. I don’t see that just because the subject matter is gender roles we should be any less determined in thinking how to resolve it. The tacit acceptance of this decline is sad and reflects badly on liberal society, which simply doesn’t want to address the issue.
 

61653 HTAFC

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It’s not about overpopulating the planet, my point is that women need to have some sort of drive to be mothers to actually, you know, become mothers. Some of this drive will be biological and hormonal and some of it will be societal. It’s important that the majority of women feel that motherhood is something expected of them, because that’s how our species propagates.
My point was that we don't need a concerted effort to encourage this for precisely those reasons. The "family values" folks on both sides of the Atlantic (but mostly the other side) seem to be concerned that the tiny minority who deviate from the norms are a fundamental threat to humanity... which is ironic considering their position on Climate Change!

I am not trying to subtly suggest trans or gay people are “not contributing” - it’s actually a help that some people don’t become parents for the reasons you outline. But please do recognise the necessity of societal norms in this area - young girls are conditioned to be mothers not because of some perverse man-controlled scheme, but because we need the majority of women to actually *be* mothers to survive as a species. All I’m trying to do is illustrate that gender roles, stereotypes and expectations are not something awful to be ripped up for the convenience of a few.
I wasn't advocating the destruction of those established norms, just that (a) a bit more flexibility with those norms would be A Good Thing and would not cause society to collapse... and (b) might even slightly reduce the (already tiny) numbers of people seeking the gender reassignment that seems to alarm conservatives so much.

I hope you aren’t suggesting I’m criticising your choice. I wasn’t. See above.
I wasn't, and the above confirms that I was right not to, rather than listening to the little voice in my head that wondered if you might be. Though many people do so (and as I said, the pressure on women to become mothers is far greater than the pressure on men to become fathers) as if my personal decision not to is going to herald the downfall of the human race. Some even take my decision to not breed as if I'm judging their decision to have a family in a harsh manner. Some people take any difference of opinion as a criticism of their own position. Whilst in some cases (political affiliations for example) this is inherent, in most cases it isn't.

Do you think absentee fathers are an acceptable problem? Aye sure it just doesn’t matter, eh?

It’s a complete scandal than feckless men father children and either avoid contributing financially or being present in the child’s life.

This isn’t a post to scandalise single mothers. Quite the opposite. Studies show that children from single parent families generally have lower outcomes in life than those from “traditional” families.

I feel that there isn't a "one size fits all" solution to family make-up. A friend of mine had their home life improved immeasurably once their father finally left, whereas another friend's childhood was severely disrupted when their mother left.

If children from single-parent households have their opportunities limited, the important question is "why is this the case?" Economics/poverty will be part of the answer, and that's relatively simple to fix. The role-model factor will also be part of the equation, but short of banning divorce (a terrible idea) it's not such an easy problem to solve.

That isn’t true. The nuclear family and the presence of two parents, despite its proven success in overall raising children with better life prospects than non-nuclear families, is a declining trend.

If this was any other factor, like income equality or access to education, we’d all be agreed in addressing it. I don’t see that just because the subject matter is gender roles we should be any less determined in thinking how to resolve it. The tacit acceptance of this decline is sad and reflects badly on liberal society, which simply doesn’t want to address the issue.

Again, there are solutions to these issues that don't require a reversion to Victorian values, but it won't be one-size-fits-all. The biggest single factor that affects a child's prospects is poverty. There's a fair overlap between poverty and family make-up, but solving the poverty aspect doesn't necessarily need to "solve" the single-parent aspect.

Of course this has little to do with transgender issues, and I think I've said my piece on that topic already.
 
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