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Cross TOC co-operation - well done

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nuneatonmark

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Nice to see this morning a Crosscountry service held at Nuneaton to allow people from a late running Virgin service to connect to it at a station run by London Northwestern. Well done to whoever made it happen.
 
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xotGD

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It is a sad indictment of the current railway system that something that ought to be routine is now worthy of praise.
 

Jonfun

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Connections aren't unreasonably denied where pathing allows - controllers are aware of which services can be held without impacting on the overall service, especially where the connection is a popular or important (eg last train) one.
 

Failed Unit

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Connections aren't unreasonably denied where pathing allows - controllers are aware of which services can be held without impacting on the overall service, especially where the connection is a popular or important (eg last train) one.

I have never had the 1935 Newark - Cleethorpes service held. Worse example when the 1600 Edinburgh- London service has arrived and we watch the doors of the EMT service close before ours open. Extremely frustrating as the slow path into Lincoln means that if could leave 7 minutes late and be back in its path by Barnetby.

Normally a taxi full from Lincoln - market rasen as a result

EMT (and central trains before them) don’t want any delay minutes.
 

bb21

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I have never had the 1935 Newark - Cleethorpes service held. Worse example when the 1600 Edinburgh- London service has arrived and we watch the doors of the EMT service close before ours open. Extremely frustrating as the slow path into Lincoln means that if could leave 7 minutes late and be back in its path by Barnetby.

Normally a taxi full from Lincoln - market rasen as a result

EMT (and central trains before them) don’t want any delay minutes.
Well, the delay minutes themselves have very little to do with it, if at all, as minutes on a connecting train held for an official connection would go to the incident that caused the first train to be late, however people misunderstanding their application...

I won't even begin to speculate why some trains are not held - too many variables for my liking - but yes, I am aware of cases where there were no good reasons to refuse holding a connection barring...
 

tsr

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Connections aren't unreasonably denied where pathing allows - controllers are aware of which services can be held without impacting on the overall service, especially where the connection is a popular or important (eg last train) one.

There tend to be "connection policies" for official "last connections", or connections into local services where said local services wouldn't make any sense without picking up longer-distance passengers.

These specify the amount of time by which a train can be held for another, or that it can be held for a theoretically indefinite amount of time. Typically these feature connections both within a TOC and between TOCs, and can be quite complex depending on location and operator. There are one or two three-way official connections involving several trains transferring passengers to each other; as an example, there's one situation at Barnham where this happens semi-regularly.
 

IanXC

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Well, the delay minutes themselves have very little to do with it, if at all, as minutes on a connecting train held for an official connection would go to the incident that caused the first train to be late, however people misunderstanding their application...

I won't even begin to speculate why some trains are not held - too many variables for my liking - but yes, I am aware of cases where there were no good reasons to refuse holding a connection barring...

As I understand it one of the principle problems is the relevant people not being aware that people wish to make said connection.

I guess it makes little sense to hold theoretical connections for theoretical passengers that end up not existing...
 

Failed Unit

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As I understand it one of the principle problems is the relevant people not being aware that people wish to make said connection.

I guess it makes little sense to hold theoretical connections for theoretical passengers that end up not existing...

In that example we tell the staff on the Intercity service (and it is the last train of the evening to Market Rasen) and it is never held. Likewise if the 1803 Ex London service is slightly late EMT won’t hold. Maybe it is better value for the TOC to pay for the Taxi from Lincoln and give us 1 hours worth of delay repay.

Complaints to EMT have blamed the train crew as it is “self dispatched” but the same letter states that it is for the better good of the railway not to hold connections even for 5 minutes.
 

DarloRich

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LM introduced a "policy"/ allowed on train staff some discretion in holding peak hour Marston Vale line services for a maximum of 5 minutes if a main line train was running late. It is really helpful, works most of the time and doesn't seem to bring the world to a stop. We have an hourly service generally but a big gap from 1830 until 2001. I think that "policy" came about via constant social media complaints
 

Deafdoggie

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EMT are very bad at not holding connections, indeed Virgin staff don't even bother asking any more, as they know the answer will be no!
 

AlterEgo

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LM introduced a "policy"/ allowed on train staff some discretion in holding peak hour Marston Vale line services for a maximum of 5 minutes if a main line train was running late. It is really helpful, works most of the time and doesn't seem to bring the world to a stop. We have an hourly service generally but a big gap from 1830 until 2001. I think that "policy" came about via constant social media complaints

Very sensible really as I believe the Marston Vale timetables have a fair bit of slack and there’s a low chance of conflict with other movements. Makes you wonder why it wasn’t implemented before.
 

Deafdoggie

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Strange considering they are the same parent company...

It’s not so much the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing, but more that the left hand is oblivious to there being a right hand at all!
 

Sleepy

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My TOC operates on who is paying the bill and if it is Network Rail then more likely to hold connections - obviously last train of the day or 2 hours wait for next service is different. Some connections not held on branch lines with single line when meeting another service at loops.
 

D365

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It is a sad indictment of the current railway system that something that ought to be routine is now worthy of praise.

Eh? Who decides what is "worthy of praise" or not.
 

goblinuser

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Being the same parent company doesn't make it more or less likely for a connection to be held.
But it is reasonable to assume that certain policies are likely to be more similar than if they were owned by 2 different companies.
 

bb21

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But it is reasonable to assume that certain policies are likely to be more similar than if they were owned by 2 different companies.
Very very unlikely.

You would think that it would make a difference...
 

tsr

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Honestly, I very much doubt there are many controllers who actually care, in the heat of the moment, what percentage Stagecoach own of any given company.

This sort of thing is exactly where the divide is between the real railway operating environment and what enthusiast forums (which otherwise often raise good points) think is important. And I don’t mean that in a nasty way - just an observation.

It’s much more about what the timetable, diagrams and control policies agree on (not to mention other controllers tapping them on the shoulder and pointing out, say, that the route for the held train is set so RHTT 3Y90 will now be held for that train in a siding, and later lose its path behind another train and not make it through to destination before a possession - you get my drift).
 

CyrixDes

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I find some of the Newark North Gate connection comments interesting as the EMT log is full on a daily basis of Lincoln/Grimsby trains being held at the request of VTEC for late running Kings Cross services for connections.....
 

Chris M

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I find some of the Newark North Gate connection comments interesting as the EMT log is full on a daily basis of Lincoln/Grimsby trains being held at the request of VTEC for late running Kings Cross services for connections.....
Having been in a taxi from Newark North Gate to Lincoln because EMT refused to hold a service for 3 (iirc) minutes and refused to pay for the taxi as the next train was in only 40 minutes time (not much good to the lawyers I shared a taxi with who would have been late to court).
 

Failed Unit

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I find some of the Newark North Gate connection comments interesting as the EMT log is full on a daily basis of Lincoln/Grimsby trains being held at the request of VTEC for late running Kings Cross services for connections.....

My problems are mainly when connecting from a service heading south. As you know the 1935 (cleethorpes) is followed fairly closely by the 2003 (Lincoln) Could this be the reason. No use to us people for Market Rasen that have missed our last train home but then we can normally fit into 2 taxis so although I don’t like it I can understand why EMT don’t hold and push us onto the 2003 and Taxi. Grimsby passengers are normally sent to Doncaster so only a big issue for Market Rasen.
 

Deafdoggie

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My problem is the Derby train never held at Crewe. Off a southbound Virgin, the connection is always tight (but valid) but never held, even though it’s adjacent platform.
 

Trackbedjolly

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My problems are mainly when connecting from a service heading south. As you know the 1935 (cleethorpes) is followed fairly closely by the 2003 (Lincoln) Could this be the reason. No use to us people for Market Rasen that have missed our last train home but then we can normally fit into 2 taxis so although I don’t like it I can understand why EMT don’t hold and push us onto the 2003 and Taxi. Grimsby passengers are normally sent to Doncaster so only a big issue for Market Rasen.

Nothing has changed in the last twenty years, it seems. I remember travelling between Edinburgh and MR in the mid 1990s making the connection at Newark NG. On one occasion the northbound GNER train left with people obviously running over the footbridge off the Lincoln train to try to catch it. I complained to the station staff and they said the official connection for northbound passengers from Lincoln area is at Doncaster not Newark. Is that not still the case? If EMT are holding trains for VTE passengers it must be for those arriving from the south-they didn't do that for passengers from the north. These are hangovers from BR days. Market Rasen also has the disadvantage of being the only station between Lincoln and Cleethorpes not having direct services to Donnie.
 
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Failed Unit

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Nothing has changed in the last twenty years, it seems. I remember travelling between Edinburgh and MR in the mid 1990s making the connection at Newark NG. On one occasion the northbound GNER train left with people obviously running over the footbridge off the Lincoln train to try to catch it. I complained to the station staff and they said the official connection for northbound passengers from Lincoln area is at Doncaster not Newark. Is that not still the case? If EMT are holding trains for VTE passengers it must be for those arriving from the south-they didn't do that for passengers from the north. These are hangovers from BR days. Market Rasen also has the disadvantage of being the only station between Lincoln and Cleethorpes not having direct services to Donnie.

Considering the level of service at Doncaster is (and always has being) very poor. 5? Per day, infrequent with massive gaps. I suspect most people travel via Newark. It is normally much quicker for a start.
 
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