"See it, say it, sorted"

NSEFAN · 10 Mar 2018

mpthomson said:
Not that exactly, but i’m sure they’ll have similar kinds of campaigns reminding the public to be vigilant, other large European countries are at their equivalent of Severe in terms if threat level.

The USA has "See something? Say something!"

RailUK Forums

NSEFAN · 10 Mar 2018

mpthomson said:
As it happens, and having been to some of the places listed, it isn’t blindingly obvious at all. Your reasons are grossly over-simplistic. Islamic terrorists kill orders of magnitude more of their own populations than people in Europe or elsewhere, and that has nothing whatever with UK ‘bombing civilians’.

The statement was simplistic but not entirely false. The ongoing fighting in these countries has created fertile ground for religious fundamentalism. Given that we take part in the fighting its inevitable that we make ourselves the enemy in someone's eyes, even though we may be trying to control the situation and overall reduce the violence. Whilst their focus may be attacking locals, in this day and age terrorists can recruit disturbed people the world over using the Internet, using footage from these war zones as propaganda to show how "oppressed" they are by all these "Western imperialists".

mpthomson · 10 Mar 2018

NSEFAN said:
The statement was simplistic but not entirely false. The ongoing fighting in these countries has created fertile ground for religious fundamentalism. Given that we take part in the fighting its inevitable that we make ourselves the enemy in someone's eyes, even though we may be trying to control the situation and overall reduce the violence. Whilst their focus may be attacking locals, in this day and age terrorists can recruit disturbed people the world over using the Internet, using footage from these war zones as propaganda to show how "oppressed" they are by all these "Western imperialists".

That’s an output but the main causes are mainly internal, ie tribal issues in Afghanistan, thought they’re not really exporters of terrorism and never really were, to proxy wars being fought by medium to large state actors, Syria being the best current example.

jon0844 · 10 Mar 2018

This is apparently an older version.

Text: If you see something, say something.

Let's be honest, that is nowhere near as effective.

Chris M · 10 Mar 2018

Bromley boy said:
Ah ok so your saying because you think some terrorism* is the fault of foreign policy, we shouldn't be taking steps to protect ourselves from it?

No, and your comment just shows you haven't actually been reading my posts. I agree we should be taking steps to protect ourselves, but I disagree that the current steps are the right steps. Principally we should be much more focused on stopping people becoming motivated to become terrorists rather than on trying to stop their plans once they are in prepertion or later. Obviously some of the latter is needed, but I disagree that the current repetetive blast of SISIS and other, more disruptive, intrusion into our daily lives is the right way to go about doing that.

Bromley boy said:
*although your hand-ringing statement about "bombing someone's home" causing terrorism is immediately exposed as simplistic nonsense when applied to the 7/7 bombers (who were 3 Brits and one Jamaican), or the London Bridge attackers (one Pakistani and two Moroccans). Whose home countries haven't been bombed by the west/or had their governments overthrown (in the case of Pakistan military action has been with the approval of the Pakistani government). I think you'll find their motivation was Islamic fundamentalism.

The 7/7 bombers were radicalised, directly or indirectly, by those people whose homes we having been bombing (I don't know either way about the London Bridge attackers). In at least some cases they have used this as a way to recruit people to the cause of Islamic fundamentalism - i.e. it's a justification for them to paint the UK as the enemy. Anyway, as I said our foreign policy is not the only cause of terrorism, but this doesn't mean we should ignore it. Suicides are not the only cause of fatalities on the railway, but that doesn't mean we should expend no effort trying to prevent them.

mpthomson said:
As it happens, and having been to some of the places listed, it isn’t blindingly obvious at all.

The thing I said was "blindingly obvious" was that British foreign policy actions was not the only cause of terrorism. You are arguing against a strawman.

mpthomson said:
Islamic terrorists kill orders of magnitude more of their own populations than people in Europe or elsewhere, and that has nothing whatever with UK ‘bombing civilians’.

True, but completely irrelevant. Terrorists have not got a single motivation, ideology, methodology, goal or anything else. The topic of discussion here is the terrorist threat to the United Kingdom and the response to that threat, so that's what I'm talking about. Your comment is as pertinent to that topic as saying that cars kill more people in city centres than they do on level crossings in a discussion about railway safety.

175mph · 10 Mar 2018

I heard the "See it, say it, sorted" announcement at Scunthorpe station yesterday.

Chris M · 10 Mar 2018

jon0844 said:
This is apparently an older version.

Text: If you see something, say something.
Let's be honest, that is nowhere near as effective.

So? Just because a previous version was less effective doesn't mean the current version is the best that there can be. Stephenson's Rocket was less effective than Gesley's A1 class, but that doesn't mean that the A1 was the most effective locomotive possible.

mpthomson · 10 Mar 2018

Chris M said:
The 7/7 bombers were radicalised, directly or indirectly, by those people whose homes we having been bombing (I don't know either way about the London Bridge attackers). In at least some cases they have used this as a way to recruit people to the cause of Islamic fundamentalism - i.e. it's a justification for them to paint the UK as the enemy. Anyway, as I said our foreign policy is not the only cause of terrorism, but this doesn't mean we should ignore it. Suicides are not the only cause of fatalities on the railway, but that doesn't mean we should expend no effort trying to prevent them.

The thing I said was "blindingly obvious" was that British foreign policy actions was not the only cause of terrorism. You are arguing against a strawman.

British foreign policy has very little to do with Islamist terrorism, and countries that have had little to no involvement in Iraq and Syria have also experienced terror attacks, Spain, Germany and Belgium to name but three. Afghanistan isn’t now and never has been an exporter of terrorism.

The 7/7 bombers were radicalised by British nationals in 3 instances, the main one of whom was from Jamaica originally. Last time I looked the UK/US hadn’t been bombing civilians in Jamaica. The other was influenced by Bin Laden, again, no-one had bombed his house as an extremely wealthy member of a Saud dynasty.

Chris M · 10 Mar 2018

And yet again you completely miss my point.
The people doing the radicalising with motivation of Islamic fundamentalism use the bombing of civilians by Britain as a justification for painting Britain as the enemy. Is that the only method they use? no. I never said it was.
I'm not sure why you are fixated on Bin Laden, I've never mentioned him.

Bromley boy · 10 Mar 2018

Chris M said:
Principally we should be much more focused on stopping people becoming motivated to become terrorists rather than on trying to stop their plans once they are in prepertion or later.

I’m sure that is being done as well. It’s regrettable that we have imported a sizeable population of people into this country who clearly despise our values and yet are happy to take the benefits of living here.

Re your earlier comments on armed police making you less safe. It was armed police who stopped the attacks in both Westminster and London Bridge. I take it you’d rather they hadn’t been there?

You seem to be criticising the current arrangements which are recommended by the security services. What makes you think you know more about this subject than they do?

Chris M said:
The 7/7 bombers were radicalised, directly or indirectly, by those people whose homes we having been bombing (I don't know either way about the London Bridge attackers).

This is factually incorrect as explained above by mpthomson.

Chris M said:
And yet again you completely miss my point.
The people doing the radicalising with motivation of Islamic fundamentalism use the bombing of civilians by Britain as a justification for painting Britain as the enemy. Is that the only method they use? no. I never said it was.
I'm not sure why you are fixated on Bin Laden, I've never mentioned him.

Bin Laden was behind 9-11. It might have escaped your notice that 9-11 occurred before the ill advised regime changes/military interventions in the Middle East.

As has been explained to you time and again Islamismist inspired terrorism is really nothing whatever to do with western foreign policy. They might use it as an excuse in some circumstances but if it wasn’t that they’d simply find another justification. Islamists hate everything the west stands for and would like to destroy it.

As has been pointed out above the proof of this is that countries that have not been involved in military action have suffered attacks by islamists.

farleigh · 10 Mar 2018

Has the slogan provided any information that led to a credible threat?

gazthomas · 10 Mar 2018

175mph said:
I heard the "See it, say it, sorted" announcement at Scunthorpe station yesterday.

And did you? :lol:

jon0844 · 10 Mar 2018

Chris M said:
So? Just because a previous version was less effective doesn't mean the current version is the best that there can be. Stephenson's Rocket was less effective than Gesley's A1 class, but that doesn't mean that the A1 was the most effective locomotive possible.

Who said this was the best it could be? I just said the previous message, which I think was for internal use only, wasn't as good.

175mph · 10 Mar 2018

gazthomas said:
And did you?

Nope.

Urban Gateline · 10 Mar 2018

The automated "see it, say it, sorted" recording on SWR Desiros sounds awful!

gazthomas · 10 Mar 2018

175mph said:
Nope.

Awesome!

mpthomson · 10 Mar 2018

Chris M said:
And yet again you completely miss my point.
The people doing the radicalising with motivation of Islamic fundamentalism use the bombing of civilians by Britain as a justification for painting Britain as the enemy. Is that the only method they use? no. I never said it was.
I'm not sure why you are fixated on Bin Laden, I've never mentioned him.

With respect that’s not what you initially said, you originally said that if you’d been bombing people’s houses then they aren’t going to like you very much, and it was one of YOUR explanations for it.

Any discussion on the reasons for Islamist terrorism has to mention Bin Laden, he was the progenitor of the entire current movement/set of movements and he wasn’t in any way disadvantaged, quite the opposite, or had been mistreated by anyone western and neither had he or any of his family been bombed.

Chris M · 10 Mar 2018

You seem to be assuming that there is only one reason someone might become a terrorist, but there are many. Having your house bombed is one reason. I explicitly stated it was not the only reason. Not everyone whose house was bombed becomes a terrorist, not everyone who is a terrorist had their house bombed. I have never claimed otherwise. Please do not put words into my mouth.

mpthomson · 11 Mar 2018

Chris M said:
You seem to be assuming that there is only one reason someone might become a terrorist, but there are many. Having your house bombed is one reason. I explicitly stated it was not the only reason. Not everyone whose house was bombed becomes a terrorist, not everyone who is a terrorist had their house bombed. I have never claimed otherwise. Please do not put words into my mouth.

There are really only two. One is that you believe in the cause. The other is that you’re a psychopath who likes hurting people and the cause is just an excuse. The main promotors/funders of Islamic extremism are rich Saudis (as part of the Wahabi/Salafist movements which the House of Saud has always been linked to) which promote ultra-conservative values and the destruction of Sunni Muslims. This has little to zero to do with western foreign policy. The reason they hate the West is because of western lifestyles, although ironically it’s western car use and industry that has made the Saudis wealthy, education and equality of women etc.

The start of this exchange was you claiming that UK/US are spending more money on breeding terrorists than preventing their actions. That might look like a clever comment because you clearly disagree with current foreign policy but it’s also complete nonsense and can’t go unchallenged. The response to it has been reactive, anti-US/western attacks in the Middle East have been going on since the early 1980s, (Lebanon, as the result of a multilateral intervention also involving France and Italy, to try to end the civil war caused by Islamic extremists trying to overthrow the government as they thought it was too western in outlook) They didn’t start because of US foreign policy or bombing of anyone but as a result of trying to stop a civil war caused by a hatred of western lifestyles and it’s gone on from there.

farleigh · 11 Mar 2018

I think the 'sorted' bit is the problem

Iskra · 11 Mar 2018

farleigh said:
I think the 'sorted' bit is the problem

I always thought it should be 'see it, say it, sort it'

Bromley boy · 11 Mar 2018

mpthomson said:
There are really only two. One is that you believe in the cause. The other is that you’re a psychopath who likes hurting people and the cause is just an excuse. The main promotors/funders of Islamic extremism are rich Saudis (as part of the Wahabi/Salafist movements which the House of Saud has always been linked to) which promote ultra-conservative values and the destruction of Sunni Muslims. This has little to zero to do with western foreign policy. The reason they hate the West is because of western lifestyles, although ironically it’s western car use and industry that has made the Saudis wealthy, education and equality of women etc.

The start of this exchange was you claiming that UK/US are spending more money on breeding terrorists than preventing their actions. That might look like a clever comment because you clearly disagree with current foreign policy but it’s also complete nonsense and can’t go unchallenged. The response to it has been reactive, anti-US/western attacks in the Middle East have been going on since the early 1980s, (Lebanon, as the result of a multilateral intervention also involving France and Italy, to try to end the civil war caused by Islamic extremists trying to overthrow the government as they thought it was too western in outlook) They didn’t start because of US foreign policy or bombing of anyone but as a result of trying to stop a civil war caused by a hatred of western lifestyles and it’s gone on from there.

A rare thing on these forums - someone who knows what they’re talking about.

Very well put.

edwin_m · 11 Mar 2018

I'd say that ill-thought-out actions like invading Iraq provide excellent material for those who want to incite hatred, demonstrate Western "oppression" and influence a minority to become terrorists. I'd even go as far as to say that terrorist attacks on the West are to a large extent motivated by the desire of the shady people running terrorist organisation to bring down retribution on the populations they claim to represent but don't really. This stokes hate on both sides and brings more recruits to the cause of the "oppressed".

Whatever causes it, it isn't going to end soon and it's clearly reasonable to be prepared for the consequences. Without insight into secret information it's difficult to say whether the people on here who argue the SISIS is worthwhile are correct, though it has to be said that some of the past actions of the security services make it difficult for some people to trust them today.

mpthomson · 11 Mar 2018

Iskra said:
I always thought it should be 'see it, say it, sort it'

That would just encourage people to try to sort it themselves and that’s the last thing someone should do, particularly if it may be a device as most have anti-tamper triggers fitted.

mpthomson · 11 Mar 2018

edwin_m said:
I'd say that ill-thought-out actions like invading Iraq provide excellent material for those who want to incite hatred, demonstrate Western "oppression" and influence a minority to become terrorists. I'd even go as far as to say that terrorist attacks on the West are to a large extent motivated by the desire of the shady people running terrorist organisation to bring down retribution on the populations they claim to represent but don't really. This stokes hate on both sides and brings more recruits to the cause of the "oppressed".

Whatever causes it, it isn't going to end soon and it's clearly reasonable to be prepared for the consequences. Without insight into secret information it's difficult to say whether the people on here who argue the SISIS is worthwhile are correct, though it has to be said that some of the past actions of the security services make it difficult for some people to trust them today.

Which actions of the security services are you referring to?

edwin_m · 11 Mar 2018

mpthomson said:
Which actions of the security services are you referring to?

Shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes. Various alleged unprovoked shoot-to-kill of IRA suspects such as Bloody Sunday and Gibraltar. Alleged mistreatment of detainees in Iraq.

LNW-GW Joint · 13 Mar 2018

Had the dubious pleasure of being surveyed on my reaction to See it, Say it, Sorted today, at Manchester Victoria.
Actually within yards of the terrorist incident last year at the MEN Arena.
The survey was on behalf of the BTP and DfT, by an agency. Lots of fancy graphics on an iPad, many nearly identical questions on the impact of the campaign.
Had I seen this or that poster, did I think it had more impact in black and white or red, etc etc.
Unfortunately it was one of those surveys where the questions are designed only to get your approval for the message and its impact.
I told them I thought it was time to change the gramophone record, especially now they are announcing it on board trains (both automatic and manual).
I also think there's a limit to the attention the public can give to continuous "critical" security alerts.
I think the slogan will mystify foreigners who don't get the slang (I'm not sure I do).
They are of course in an impossible position on this, trying to balance the real security risk against simply frightening or boring people with endless warnings.
But I do think we are in danger of being paranoid about the security situation, compared to the other risks in life.

theironroad · 13 Mar 2018

Urban Gateline said:
The automated "see it, say it, sorted" recording on SWR Desiros sounds awful!

+1

I'm getting sick of hearing it on trains and at stations.

CaptainHaddock · 13 Mar 2018

theironroad said:
+1

I'm getting sick of hearing it on trains and at stations.

I agree. Perhaps it's starting to achieve the opposite effect of its intention and awakening the rebel in all of us?

In other words, we British don't like being told what to do. If we can, of our own free will, report something we perceive as suspicious we are happy to do so. If however you have some totalitarian voice ordering us to spy on our fellow passengers then our hackles rise and we start thinking that by deliberately disobeying authority that we are reaffirming our own independence!

DarloRich · 14 Mar 2018

I simply do not understand how a simple announcement can create such heat and light. The overreaction is massive and sadly typical for this board.

CaptainHaddock said:
I agree. Perhaps it's starting to achieve the opposite effect of its intention and awakening the rebel in all of us?

In other words, we British don't like being told what to do. If we can, of our own free will, report something we perceive as suspicious we are happy to do so. If however you have some totalitarian voice ordering us to spy on our fellow passengers then our hackles rise and we start thinking that by deliberately disobeying authority that we are reaffirming our own independence!

While you are, of course, welcome to hold that view this thread and announcement does seem to bring our your obstreperous side! The problem is that many sections of society are not happy to report things to the police for a whole range of reasons - the idea behind this campaign is to help those people to feel comfortable interacting with the authorities, however I think you know that.

BTW - no none is asking you to spy on your fellow passengers nor are you being told what to do. Why use such silly hyperbole?

Bromley boy said:
A rare thing on these forums - someone who knows what they’re talking about.

indeed but it is a waste of time trying to educate and inform people who will not consider other approaches.

"See it, say it, sorted"

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