RDG trial/Budget announcement: 26-30 Railcard from Spring 2018

dvalts · 13 Mar 2018

I still really hope a physical card is available after the trial period. I know supposedly "everyone has smartphones" these days, but I would expect occasions where the app crashes or doesn't work leaving people without valid tickets. The physical card is just easier to use. There are presumably accessibility issues by having it restricted to digital-only too. It's going to be more of a faff switching between different apps if you've bought mobile tickets and have a digital railcard in a separate app as well.

(I forget my phone/have it run out of battery more often than forgetting a railcard, FWIW)

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setdown · 13 Mar 2018

Just managed to get mine now and downloaded it to my phone. Hang in there, it is possible! Glad the notice about it being valid for 16-25 tickets is so prominent in the app!

Bletchleyite · 13 Mar 2018

marks87 said:
You speak as though the majority of requirements/T&Cs on the railway are obvious.

But, again, what percentage of smartphone owners won't have their device connected to the internet at some point in the 72 hours before trying to use the railcard?

Does it matter?

It will be a case of it not working and them not understanding why, or being stuck if they've run out of data.

This is another attempt to find a problem where there isn't one.

It *is* a problem. The whole current concept of mobile-based ticketing is a problem. It'll only work properly and transparently when it's true e-ticketing, i.e. verified online on board or at the barriers with the person only carrying a reference to the ticket/Railcard which can be held in multiple forms and fully offline.

Bletchleyite · 13 Mar 2018

setdown said:
Just managed to get mine now and downloaded it to my phone. Hang in there, it is possible! Glad the notice about it being valid for 16-25 tickets is so prominent in the app!

Does anyone see a potential issue here in July/August given that they have said two conflicting things:-
- Minimum fare exemption in July/August does not apply
- 18-25 tickets can be used?

marks87 · 13 Mar 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Does it matter?

Yes.

Pandering to a tiny minority makes zero business sense.

It will be a case of it not working and them not understanding why, or being stuck if they've run out of data.

Again, what percentage of smartphone users will not have some form of internet access on their device in the 72 hours before needing to use their railcard?

It *is* a problem. The whole current concept of mobile-based ticketing is a problem. It'll only work properly and transparently when it's true e-ticketing, i.e. verified online on board or at the barriers with the person only carrying a reference to the ticket/Railcard which can be held in multiple forms and fully offline.

It really isn't a problem. It's people looking for problems.

dvalts · 13 Mar 2018

marks87 said:
Pandering to a tiny minority makes zero business sense.

Perhaps they should do away with some of the other railcards then...? I don't think the issue is totally about 'business sense', but making sure your product is fully accessible to people, even if they are in a minority.

marks87 · 13 Mar 2018

dvalts said:
Perhaps they should do away with some of the other railcards then...?

Reductio ad absurdum.

dvalts · 13 Mar 2018

marks87 said:
Reductio ad absurdum.

I don't think it's an absurd argument really, but how many of the railcards make 'business sense'. i.e. do they all attract more passengers that would otherwise not chose to travel by rail if the railcard did not exist?

WelshBluebird · 13 Mar 2018

marks87 said:
You've misread the conditions.

They take no responsibility for the app essentially not working on your phone. That's not the same as the service being unavailable - indeed, the service doesn't need to be available at the point where you use the railcard.

Essentially, they're indemnifying themselves against the app not working on your phone, and/or you not being able to download the railcard. But it takes a really special kind of stupid to not ensure the app works and the railcard is present before boarding a train with a ticket where it's required.

So take a situation like this. As part of an app update they introduce a bug which means the app no longer works on say Samsung devices. Maybe you even get the update while you are travelling so it DID work before you boarded. According to the T&C's - in that situation, if you have a Samsung device then you are stuffed. The service is still working, the app still works on other devices, technically the problem is the app not working on your phone. Sure, I'd hope common sense would prevail, especially if multiple people all with Samsung devices had the same issue. But it IS a problem. You can't just pretend it doesn't exist.

dvalts · 13 Mar 2018

Anyway, it just seems strange that they feel another trial period is necessary to 'gauge demand' and to see 'if the product is valuable for our customers'. Were they not expecting that offering a substantial discount to a group of people would be hugely popular...

Bletchleyite · 13 Mar 2018

dvalts said:
Anyway, it just seems strange that they feel another trial period is necessary to 'gauge demand' and to see 'if the product is valuable for our customers'. Were they not expecting that offering a substantial discount to a group of people would be hugely popular...

The question would be how profitable it is, which is a bit harder to predict.

Urban Gateline · 13 Mar 2018

I got an error at the last stage of the payment process but then half hour later got a confirmation e-mail and code for my digital railcard which all seems to work! So like one of the other posters above says it's definitely worth hanging in there!

WelshBluebird · 13 Mar 2018

Urban Gateline said:
I got an error at the last stage of the payment process but then half hour later got a confirmation e-mail and code for my digital railcard which all seems to work! So like one of the other posters above says it's definitely worth hanging in there!

I've not been able to even load the site - just hit the Service Unavailable 503 error all of the time.

Chester1 · 13 Mar 2018

WelshBluebird said:
I've not been able to even load the site - just hit the Service Unavailable 503 error all of the time.

Same and I have been trying every few minutes for 3 hours.

Urban Gateline · 13 Mar 2018

Chester1 said:
Same and I have been trying every few minutes for 3 hours.

Jesus, I have been trying every few mins since about 0915 so it must be just by luck I got through, definitely worth to keep trying, I agree though it's been poorly set up as RDG surely knew the site would be swamped! Fingers crossed for you both getting through.

palmersears · 13 Mar 2018

I had 5 tabs on auto refresh from 0700 and finally managed to complete my application a moment ago. Off to book some trips!

Coolzac · 13 Mar 2018

I am amazed at the incompetence of some people sometimes. Did anyone on this forum not predict that there would be 'unprecedented demand' for the railcard given that they are only releasing 10,000 for a large segment of the population who belong to an age group that are highly likely to use public transport?

If they can't predict something as obvious as this I do worry !

AlterEgo · 13 Mar 2018

Coolzac said:
I am amazed at the incompetence of some people sometimes. Did anyone on this forum not predict that there would be 'unprecedented demand' for the railcard given that they are only releasing 10,000 for a large segment of the population who belong to an age group that are highly likely to use public transport?

If they can't predict something as obvious as this I do worry !

Oh what a surprise, the online-only Railcard was really damn popular, so much so the website selling them crashed.

Guess that settles the argument about whether non-physical railcards are what people want. I recall some extensive debates where some posters were totally adamant that mobile or online only railcards wouldn’t be popular.

WelshBluebird · 13 Mar 2018

AlterEgo said:
Oh what a surprise, the online-only Railcard was really damn popular, so much so the website selling them crashed.

Guess that settles the argument about whether non-physical railcards are what people want. I recall some extensive debates where some posters were totally adamant that mobile or online only railcards wouldn’t be popular.

Sorry but that logic makes no sense. There is no choice here, so if you are in the age group and want a railcard you have to have a digital one. The only way to actually have a real comparison is to compare the railcards where you actually have a choice.

Now if you have numbers that show for the railcards where you do have a choice - the digital version is more popular, then that would actually support the argument you are making.

The reason people want the railcard isn't because it is a digital one, it is because it saves money for a section of the population who has pretty much taken the financial brunt of everything over the last few years (but that is a different topic!). It would likely be just as popular if it was a physical only ticket.

And of course the website has crashed today. 10,000 is a tiny number available when you consider the whole age group. It was always going to be popular, and people were always going to try to get one at the same time because supply is so limited. The fact RDG / ATOC didn't plan for this is insane.

Coolzac · 13 Mar 2018

WelshBluebird said:
Sorry but that logic makes no sense. There is no choice here, so if you are in the age group and want a railcard you have to have a digital one. The only way to actually have a real comparison is to compare the railcards where you actually have a choice.

Now if you have numbers that show for the railcards where you do have a choice - the digital version is more popular, then that would actually support the argument you are making.

The reason people want the railcard isn't because it is a digital one, it is because it saves money for a section of the population who has pretty much taken the financial brunt of everything over the last few years (but that is a different topic!). It would likely be just as popular if it was a physical only ticket.

And of course the website has crashed today. 10,000 is a tiny number available when you consider the whole age group. It was always going to be popular, and people were always going to try to get one at the same time because supply is so limited. The fact RDG / ATOC didn't plan for this is insane.

Completely Agree.

ainsworth74 · 13 Mar 2018

WelshBluebird said:
Sorry but that logic makes no sense. There is no choice here, so if you are in the age group and want a railcard you have to have a digital one. The only way to actually have a real comparison is to compare the railcards where you actually have a choice.

Quite. If the choice had been available I'd have been off on my lunch to buy one from Middlesbrough station. Even without the website issues.

AlterEgo · 13 Mar 2018

WelshBluebird said:
Sorry but that logic makes no sense. There is no choice here, so if you are in the age group and want a railcard you have to have a digital one. The only way to actually have a real comparison is to compare the railcards where you actually have a choice.

Now if you have numbers that show for the railcards where you do have a choice - the digital version is more popular, then that would actually support the argument you are making.

The reason people want the railcard isn't because it is a digital one, it is because it saves money for a section of the population who has pretty much taken the financial brunt of everything over the last few years (but that is a different topic!). It would likely be just as popular if it was a physical only ticket.

And of course the website has crashed today. 10,000 is a tiny number available when you consider the whole age group. It was always going to be popular, and people were always going to try to get one at the same time because supply is so limited. The fact RDG / ATOC didn't plan for this is insane.

My point was made in relation to the future scenario where no choice is given - people will still really want them and the lack of physical railcard will be no barrier.

I’d wager that well over 90% of the demographic here would choose mobile over physical anyway, if there was a choice.

WelshBluebird · 13 Mar 2018

AlterEgo said:
My point was made in relation to the future scenario where no choice is given - people will still really want them and the lack of physical railcard will be no barrier.

You literally said that it settles the argument about if people wanted non physical railcards.
My reply was that it doesn't, because there isn't the choice.
The only argument the railcard being popular settles is one that wasn't even an argument anyway - that people want cheaper tickets!

AlterEgo said:
I’d wager that well over 90% of the demographic here would choose mobile over physical anyway, if there was a choice.

I wonder how that percentage would change when you explain the restrictions and issues, and that if an app update breaks the app for you, then you could well find yourself with a very expensive bill.

yorksrob · 13 Mar 2018

AlterEgo said:
Oh what a surprise, the online-only Railcard was really damn popular, so much so the website selling them crashed.

Guess that settles the argument about whether non-physical railcards are what people want. I recall some extensive debates where some posters were totally adamant that mobile or online only railcards wouldn’t be popular.

I'm sure a railcard that people could purchase without fannying around on a computer for three hours would also be popular.

AlterEgo · 13 Mar 2018

WelshBluebird said:
You literally said that it settles the argument about if people wanted non physical railcards.
My reply was that it doesn't, because there isn't the choice.
The only argument the railcard being popular settles is one that wasn't even an argument anyway - that people want cheaper tickets!

Indeed - people want cheaper tickets and they're more than happy to use a mobile- or online-only railcard to get hold of this. That's always been my entire argument. It's not that I want this lack of choice to happen - and I don't think it will be standard in the short term - but if you release a product which makes life cheaper for people for whom it is currently expensive then it will be very popular.

There have been people on these forums before who suggest that uptake would be low for mobile- or online-only railcards and this is the perception I was countering.

I still have a physical railcard.

I wonder how that percentage would change when you explain the restrictions and issues, and that if an app update breaks the app for you, then you could well find yourself with a very expensive bill.

No doubt it may decrease slightly, but a lot of people would still find it much more convenient than a physical railcard which they may lose. Not only do they get a bill, they also have to buy a new railcard too, adding insult to injury.

AlterEgo · 13 Mar 2018

yorksrob said:
I'm sure a railcard that people could purchase without fannying around on a computer for three hours would also be popular.

Obviously the fact the site crashed is laughable and was always going to happen given the way RDG implements things.

island · 13 Mar 2018

Bletchleyite said:
That's not very transparent. Why that requirement?

The requirement that your phone has been online in the last 72 hours is to support remote revocation of Railcards, where a Railcard holder has added the Railcard to a new device beyond the limit of two devices per Railcard.

I agree with all the above commenters that this is attempting to find a problem where one does not exist.

Be3G · 13 Mar 2018

I don't know why everyone's saying the internet connection timeout limit is 72h, it's 24h and has been since the trial began! I know this because I checked before buying the railcard, as the lack of a physical option genuinely made me hesitate about buying it. See here: https://www.26-30railcard.co.uk/help/faqs/?q=offline

Not that I want to give RDG any ideas, but I'd pay a few quid more to have the railcard in paper format. Why? It's simple: I've never ever forgotten my railcard, but I have experienced phone/app/battery problems in the past.

As it is, I always feel slightly nervous if I'm on the tube and then realise I haven't opened the Railcard app that morning to make sure the railcard has ‘checked in’. Sure, that's something it's supposed to do itself in the background, but I know from experience with other iOS apps using background app refresh that whether or not they do actually refresh is completely down to the whims of the OS and its power management routines. (My understanding is that iOS more willingly provides background updates to apps used frequently – so if you don't use an app e.g. the railcard for a while, it'll stop refreshing it in the background, thereby making it potentially invalid if checked somewhere without an internet connection.)

Mag_seven · 13 Mar 2018

palmersears said:
I had 5 tabs on auto refresh from 0700

And you wonder why the site crashed.

pemma · 13 Mar 2018

palmersears said:
I had 5 tabs on auto refresh from 0700 and finally managed to complete my application a moment ago. Off to book some trips!

Some sites refuse to let you make a purchase if you have multiple active sessions on the same computer at the same time. Even if they don't having multiple tabs loading at the same time can slow things down for you, opposed to speed them up.

RDG trial/Budget announcement: 26-30 Railcard from Spring 2018

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