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Your opinions on Vladimir Putin?
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Bevan Price
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Personally I would be surprised if Pucin and the Russian government had any direct involvement in the poisoning incidents. Russia traditionally likes strong leaders, and some Western governments always seem to need a "bogeyman" to blame for "problems". And having someone like Trump as US president does not help to encourage cooperation between Russia and "the west".
However, I think there are some very dark elements, with plenty of money, within Russia (or abroad) who have done some unpleasant deeds and quite possibly have access to some dangerous substances "acquired" from current or previous "official" sources.
However, I think there are some very dark elements, with plenty of money, within Russia (or abroad) who have done some unpleasant deeds and quite possibly have access to some dangerous substances "acquired" from current or previous "official" sources.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
and right there is the story being but about by Russia, its propaganda outlets and by the confused Corbyn. it is inconceivable that such an action could take place without some form of endorsement from the Russian state and its organs. it is preposterous.
shredder1
Established Member
I quite like the guy, love Russian Railways, I do hope they don`t modernise too quickly.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I quite like the guy - i mean whats not to like when 14 or 15 of his former countrymen ( who have been critical of him or his government) have died in mysterious circumstances in this country. All a coincidence anyway.
BTW - i totally agree the state of Russian railways is a much bigger priority than the use of a nerve agent to try to murder people in the UK. Definitely. much bigger. Much, much bigger.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
It is an election year for Putin. He lives on the idea of being a protective patriarch, defending Russian interests from a "hostile" West.
Of course he is behind this. It's entirely in his interests at this point to do something which outrages a powerful state so much the international community turns on him. Theresa May expelling diplomats today is exactly what he wants.
Exactly.
There must’ve been a lot of Russian diplomats over here a few years ago?
It might be worth keeping a couple of hundred in the country so that we’ve still got plenty to expel whenever something bad happens...
DarloRich
Veteran Member
But is also the only option we can, realistically, take.
Corbyn missed the point yesterday with his idea that we have a bit of a chat about it. He seems unwilling to attack Russia or Putin verbally. His response is dressed up in his usual vague wibbling about international communities/institutions (while knowing full well Russia would block any sanction within those organisations - cf Syria) but one wonders why he wont even criticise them. There was an attack on someone on UK soil with nerve agents and he doesn't seem worried.
He is hammering a point about Russian cash sloshing into Tory coffers but I don't think this is best time to do so. It might play well with the clown army but not with the wider public who are, rightly, more worried about nerve agent attacks within the UK!
Also I am sure Corbyn appeared on RT in the past. I hope he gives back the cash. Lets see if he supports the freezing of Russian state assets.
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Monty
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Short of someone dying, not sure what Russia could do that is worse. Using chemical weapons on British soil targeting civilians is tantamount to war. Over the last 15 years Russia has been steadily regressing back to a totalitarian regime with a cult of personality at it's heart. It makes the problems we face here with things like brexit and the economy look like trivial issues.
Arglwydd Golau
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Of course that hasn't prevented successive British Governments allowing super-rich Russian friends of Putin to launder their dodgy money through our financial systems.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Do you have any evidence that British Governments specifically decided to deliberately allow friends of Putin to launder money (as implied by your post)? (As opposed to, for example, money laundering happening because the people doing so were clever enough to get round the fairly stringent checks that we have in the UK, and despite the best efforts of the financial authorities?)
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Agreed. It's basically an attack by a foreign Government on British soil. And I have to admit I find myself completely caught between the feeling that something like this does require a very robust response, and the frustration that there seem to be so few options we can take that wouldn't be counterproductive, since almost anything we do would leave Putin more powerful/popular at home.
Arglwydd Golau
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You could read up on some of the reports in 'Private Eye' over the last few years to get some idea! You are suggesting that our checks are only 'fairly' stringent (hardly a ringing endorsement) and from what I understand haven't there been many cuts in our financial policing authorities? I wonder why Russian billionaires love to make the UK their home.....
Monty
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Either way its win/win for Putin. We do nothing and he is allowed to kill off his critics and opponents with impunity. Do something and he cries that it's the West bullying Russia and he becomes ever more popular at home. This would of never happened 30 years ago, partly because back the the Soviets would known better than to bump someone off in such a public and risky way and partly because something like what happened in Salisbury could start a full blown conventional conflict. Nato is it's castrated form is in no condition to square up to Russia like it used to and Putin knows it, not that Russia's conventional forces are much better but he can do pretty much whatever he wants knowing full well we have no stomach for a fight.
People often forget that Putin is a spy, and has been able to apply his tradecraft to his political career with ruthless efficiency.
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Monty
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I'm not really sure how this is relevant to the discussion at hand, money laundering is a million miles away from killing civilians, more specifically British subjects with chemical weapons. Itself a breach of chemical weapons treaties.
shredder1
Established Member
We think the same way Mr Darlo, definitely a coincidence, and whats the odd murder in the UK, the Conservatives have been doing it for years
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
We think the same way Mr Darlo, definitely a coincidence, and whats the odd murder in the UK, the Conservatives have been doing it for years
Really?
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Exactly - take a look at Private Eye. The checks are not "fairly stringent" at all when it comes to property, especially if bought via properly constituted corporate body. Loads of dodgy money is sloshing about the London property market lots of it getting cleaned and polished before being moved on
We think the same way Mr Darlo, definitely a coincidence, and whats the odd murder in the UK, the Conservatives have been doing it for years
what a silly comment.
EssexGonzo
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Yep, only a lot more subtly. Starve the NHS of funding as part of the "NHS privatisation programme", ignore the growing need for social care and voila! More people die sooner than they should. Result.
Back on topic, there's no way the Russian state isn't behind this. Too many coincidental facts. OK, not enough to build a court case (as far as us mere mortals know) but enough for the Court of the Internet. He's on record as saying "Traitors will kick the bucket". He's delivering on his promises as far as he's concerned.
In related but slightly more worrying news, the three world superpowers are in the ever tightening grips of dictators..... China, Russia and the USA. We should be worried. We're not as warrior-like as we once were.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Sigh.
shredder1
Established Member
Don`t be miserable, lighten up mate.
shredder1
Established Member
No, not really I expect its fake news like most things we read in the press
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...e-social-care-government-policy-a8057306.html
shredder1
Established Member
That would sound more realistic to me, things get distorted through the media and I doubt we`ll ever really know whats really taken place.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
That is not murder and it is disgusting of you and other posters to suggest so.
Anyone who even tries to equate increased mortality rates due to austerity, with trying to murder someone you hate using a nerve agent is worthy of the highest contempt.
shredder1
Established Member
Sorry can`t agree there mate, and try not to get too emotional, its hardly disgusting to have opinions which differ from your own, lets try and keep this debate gentleman like, if that is at all possible without insulting people, we only know the half of it, so much is covered up in this country, always has been.
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Iskra
Established Member
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09vb7m3/putin-the-new-tsar
A very interesting documentary on Mr Putin.
A very interesting documentary on Mr Putin.
Arglwydd Golau
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If Putin is half as clever as friend and foe think he is, he will know exactly where this dodgy money is going and I wouldn't be surprised if he sacrificed one or two Russian pawns to embarrass (or worse) some of our glorious financial institutions that can't resist a quick profit with no questions asked.
I did read a review of 'McMafia' somewhere that said, from those in the know, the reality was far worse.
gazthomas
Established Member
He is a Patriot, and a Patriot knows their role is to protect the Motherland
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Comparing attempting to poison and murder a spy with government austerity measures remains a contemptible opinion in my view. Absolutely disgusting.
You’re suggesting the British government is actively seeking to murder thousands of its own people. As bonkers as David Icke. Get away man.
If you feel insulted, you should be. What an outrageous thing to say.
shredder1
Established Member
Exactly, and well said, it amazes me just how many people don`t appear to have a clue whats going on around them and accept everything they read in the media and distorted truths.
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